Imperial Cavalry...

[Quint]

So, I was wondering if anyone has experimented with Imperial Cavalry being grav-bikes and actually acting like "traditional" cavalry rather than what the aircav, tanks, etc.

I was pondering TOEs and transport issues the other day, and thought back to my WH40K days with Vypers and Jetbikes. Much easier to transport, fast attack and movement, ability to mount some serious firepower, etc.

Anybody else do anything like this? Anyone have any thoughts?

D.

 

[flykiller]

armor relevance is directly proportional to the need to reduce casualties. if assets are cheap and plentiful there is no need to spend money to armor them, if assets are expensive and rare then it makes sense to spend money to armor them. assuming of course that available armor is effective, that unarmored troops are effective, that speed actually is an issue (are grav-bike-mounted infantry more mobile than orbit-capable shuttle-deployed infantry? really?), etc.

 

[Reban]

Troops mounted on individual transport like grav-bikes, grav-belts, motorbikes or even mounted on riding beasts work a lot less like traditional cavalry and more like mounted infantry.

The trooper's protection is not from his vehicle but his own personal armour probably battledress.

If you're envisioning traditional cavalry charges, even ones coming from the sky, rapid fire weapons defeated those in the First World War. With access to anti-aircraft weapons, gauss guns and sensors in the Traveller universe you could sweep such a charge out of the sky.

I'd say you need to think of the grav bike less like a traditional cavalry mount and more like a mobility enhancer for infantrymen doing infantry tasks.

You might use a grav-bike or equivalent to get a scout or forward observer forward of the main body of your troops or there might be a role in flank and perimeter defense but they will always be as vulnerable as an infantry man on foot.

If you mount weapons on the grav-bike you're probably restricted at the upper end to infantry support weapons. If you fix them to the chassis you limit your field of fire, meaning you must aim by aiming your bike. I think to be most effective the trooper will dismount and use infantry type weapons. There may be a role for weapons drones that follow or accompany the bike and rider.

There's also the role of the dispatch rider. Most armies maintain dispatch riders to back up technological means of communication. A messenger on a grav bike would work just like a messenger on a trail bike, but I wouldn't let him go zipping straight and level in a war zone.

Having said all that, if you want an Elder style jetbike unit, build it and try it up against some conventional Traveller military units.

Tally Ho!

 

[salochin999]

I haven't tested it using any rules but on the thread about grav tanks I was thinking about how 3D might effect things.

The idea with grav tanks is that although they can fly they'd still need to stay close to the ground for cover - which makes sense - so how could you get round that?

It seems to me the only way you could do it is if you could combine fire and movement i.e. instead of one part of the unit laying down suppressive fire while the other part moved the unit could lay down so much fire on the move that it could do both jobs at once.

This might not be feasible in an attacking *line* but what about an attacking *wall* i.e. attackers stacked up in 3D space?

So I was imagining a grav platoon of four gravs and four platoons to a company and a standard company attack formation of 2x2 platoons i.e. two above two giving a formation eight gravs wide and two gravs high

...and then a battalion of four companies also attacking in a 2x2 company formation making a battalion formation sixteen gravs wide and four high

...and maybe even a regimental attack formation of 2x2 battalions making a formation thirty-two gravs wide and eight gravs high.

If you imagine a wall of gravs like that charging forward and all blasting away then I think that might just do it.

Rolling back to your cavalry charge idea I think that's the way it might work - using 3D space to create a wall of grav-bikes designed for maximum fire power on the charge.

(nb it might not need to be sustainable as the aim is suppression during the actual charge so for example the grav-bikes could have pods of one-off rockets like Katyushas).

It would be a pretty cool sight.

#

edit: the closest analogy I can think of is actually the original WWI storm troopers. If you imagine a front line say five clicks apart and the storm trooper cavalry move close to the ground and under cover into position just behind their front line, then when the attack starts they swarm up like bees into their 3D attack formation, let off their katyusha pods and charge. At say 100 kph that's three minutes of charging all guns blazing before dropping down onto the enemy defense line - like a mixture of cavalry, storm trooper and paratroops.

 

[Condottiere]

The traditional role for light cavalry is scouting and skirmishing.

Heavy cavalry would be defined as those heavily armoured and armed, fairly fast moving assets that could opt for a frontal assault.

 

[Major B]

It would be a pretty cool sight.

It would.

I have two reactions to your idea that sort of compete in my mind.

First, the practical side of my brain says the only reason to do this would be if there was no other way to project the same volume of fire without exposing one's force to more casualties than necessary. Rockets can be fired from cover without exposing the firer as long as you have an observer and effective communications. If you don't have those then maybe there is the reason to try this.

Then again, the other side of my brain is saying if you want to put this into YTU, who is to say it isn't a good idea?

A mercenary unit on a tight budget might try this out. Mount the main body in light g-carriers and use the rocket-carrying grav bikes to suppress enemy air defense and ground fire to allow the main body to go low, fast, and deep to drop the infantry off near the objective. In this role though I would see the grav bikes operating as smaller formations, staying low until a target is spotted. Then they pop up, fire, and drop down to head back to a re-arming point.

Well, that idea doesn't match your original idea too much but maybe it will give you some ideas.

 

[salochin999]

It would.

I have two reactions to your idea that sort of compete in my mind.

First, the practical side of my brain says the only reason to do this would be if there was no other way to project the same volume of fire without exposing one's force to more casualties than necessary. Rockets can be fired from cover without exposing the firer as long as you have an observer and effective communications. If you don't have those then maybe there is the reason to try this.

Then again, the other side of my brain is saying if you want to put this into YTU, who is to say it isn't a good idea?

A mercenary unit on a tight budget might try this out. Mount the main body in light g-carriers and use the rocket-carrying grav bikes to suppress enemy air defense and ground fire to allow the main body to go low, fast, and deep to drop the infantry off near the objective. In this role though I would see the grav bikes operating as smaller formations, staying low until a target is spotted. Then they pop up, fire, and drop down to head back to a re-arming point.

Well, that idea doesn't match your original idea too much but maybe it will give you some ideas.

Yeah I'm not saying my version makes sense.

I think the only way it *could* make sense is if it combined fire and movement i.e. could put down enough fire while moving (caveat better alternative methods).

So the question to my mind becomes is it visually cool enough to blur any quibbles over practicality

For me that's a yes but I wouldn't argue if someone disagreed.

 

[Quint]

Thanks everyone!

Yeah, I expect that "mobility enhancer" is at least part of what I was thinking in some ways. But the "wall formation" is at least part of what I was thinking of as well (the reverse of the "Hammerhead" scene from Jupiter Rising).

Plus, there is the option for greater firepower if using the "two-sophont" bikes - one pilot, the other weaponeer (which is the Eldar Vyper IIRC).

I think that part of this also ends up being where you place Imperial Doctrine. I'm also operating under the whole "Imperial Army is TL12, but the average planet is TL7-8" because that is the RAW. So Imperial Doctrine and TOE's should reflect this (as well as the most common missions rolled on the tables, Counter-Insurgency and Police Actions).

I, admittedly, find these discrepancies fascinating and worth exploring in the exploration of the OTU and the creation of MTU.

D.

 

[Quint]

So the question to my mind becomes is it visually cool enough to blur any quibbles over practicality

Heck yeah!

D.

 

[Frankymole]

Troops mounted on individual transport like grav-bikes, grav-belts, motorbikes or even mounted on riding beasts work a lot less like traditional cavalry and more like mounted infantry.

The trooper's protection is not from his vehicle but his own personal armour probably battledress.

If you're envisioning traditional cavalry charges, even ones coming from the sky, rapid fire weapons defeated those in the First World War.

Not to mention Agincourt, heavily armoured knights against British longbows... Look how that turned out.

Mounted infantry (dragoons) are what grav APCs are for. Though grav belts versus "primitives" could work...

 

[Quint]

Not to mention Agincourt, heavily armoured knights against British longbows... Look how that turned out.

Mounted infantry (dragoons) are what grab APCs are for. Though grav belts versus "primitives" could work...

While, in general, I agree - in that case we're talking about an even TL fight - here, again RAWish, we're talking about 4-5TL advantage on the part of the Imperium.

I spent some time looking at the Mongoose Rules (since those are the ones I've been using lately), and Assault Rifles against Combat Armor on Gravbikes really doesn't look like a very good matchup for the people with Assault Rifles (and Classic Traveller wasn't much better IIRC). They certainly have a chance, but hitting is hard, and hits rarely penetrate.

Again, it's certainly not the same as an APC or an IFV, but it's not quite cavalry in the Great War either.

D.

 

[mike wightman]

If you have ten troops in an APC then my meson gun kills ten troops.

If your ten troops have individual grav belts and are dispersed my meson guns can only kill one.

 

[Frankymole]

Unless YTU has a meson net... To be fair, cavalry in real life were most effective when acting on bloc, whereas dragoons on the other hand were mobile up to engagement and could disperse (to cover?) on dismounting. Less hampered by trees too.

 

[salochin999]

but Agincourt knights with a side-mounted machine gun and rocket horses?

 

[Reban]

I spent some time looking at the Mongoose Rules (since those are the ones I've been using lately), and Assault Rifles against Combat Armor on Gravbikes really doesn't look like a very good matchup for the people with Assault Rifles (and Classic Traveller wasn't much better IIRC). They certainly have a chance, but hitting is hard, and hits rarely penetrate.

But you don't fight a higher tech enemy by using a direct match-up.

You treat the Battledressed trooper on a gravbike the same as you would a drone or missile and engage it with AA or CIWS. Imagine your squadron of grav-cavalry flying into the interlocking free fire zones of a battery of Phalanx systems mounted on heavy trucks to give them mobility.

Issue airburst munitions to all your artillery units and pre mark boxes for them to fire into along likely approaches by the enemy grav-cavalry. "Enemy grav-cav in sight coming into Box Four. Airburst, rapid FIRE!".

Another two low tech solutions.

Barrage Balloons. The idea is to channel the grav-cav into killing zones or choke points by putting an obstacle in their path. Now you may say its easy to blow a balloon out of the sky but its actually difficult if you consider the type of weapons that might be carried by the gravbikes. Traditional barrage balloon trail steel cables to damage aircraft that run into a barrage (lots of balloons). Instead of steel cables use monowire, or proximity mines. I saw a design somewhere for suspending a rapid fire laser turret under a balloon.

Anti-helicopter mines. During the Vietnam War the Viet Cong placed mines triggered by the downwash of of a landing helicopter in clearings likely to be used by the air cav. You should be able to build similar sensor triggered mines to target passing gravbikes. Indeed to target the formation of grav cavalry mentioned earlier I'd sew the ground with pallets containing a sensor to detect its approach and a large number of small fire and forget SAMs launched vertically. Imagine your nice formation flying along when suddenly 40+ small SAMs launch from directly below you.

If you have a difference in TL you don't fight the higher TL enemy on his terms, you adapt and develop tactics and equipment to take him on.

 

[Condottiere]

Central to the cavalry concept is mobility, which tends to grant you the initiative compared to a less mobile opponent.

With that in mind, you get to select exactly where you'll go, whether you plan to do a full frontal, or try to outflank them, or find a way to mess up their rear areas and cut off their line units.

Unless he has a good astrologer, your opponent will have to decide what he wants and needs to defend, and where he'll leave a token defence.

 

[Quint]

But you don't fight a higher tech enemy by using a direct match-up.

You treat the Battledressed trooper on a gravbike the same as you would a drone or missile and engage it with AA or CIWS. Imagine your squadron of grav-cavalry flying into the interlocking free fire zones of a battery of Phalanx systems mounted on heavy trucks to give them mobility.

Issue airburst munitions to all your artillery units and pre mark boxes for them to fire into along likely approaches by the enemy grav-cavalry. "Enemy grav-cav in sight coming into Box Four. Airburst, rapid FIRE!".

Another two low tech solutions.

Barrage Balloons. The idea is to channel the grav-cav into killing zones or choke points by putting an obstacle in their path. Now you may say its easy to blow a balloon out of the sky but its actually difficult if you consider the type of weapons that might be carried by the gravbikes. Traditional barrage balloon trail steel cables to damage aircraft that run into a barrage (lots of balloons). Instead of steel cables use monowire, or proximity mines. I saw a design somewhere for suspending a rapid fire laser turret under a balloon.

Anti-helicopter mines. During the Vietnam War the Viet Cong placed mines triggered by the downwash of of a landing helicopter in clearings likely to be used by the air cav. You should be able to build similar sensor triggered mines to target passing gravbikes. Indeed to target the formation of grav cavalry mentioned earlier I'd sew the ground with pallets containing a sensor to detect its approach and a large number of small fire and forget SAMs launched vertically. Imagine your nice formation flying along when suddenly 40+ small SAMs launch from directly below you.

If you have a difference in TL you don't fight the higher TL enemy on his terms, you adapt and develop tactics and equipment to take him on.

Those are really great tactics, and ones that (interestingly) would work against G/Carriers and GravTanks as well.

The real issue is less, "how can this be killed with unlimited resources" but instead "what are the resources of an 'average planet'" and how would/could they be used to combat this threat? More importantly, if I'm the guy with the GravBikes, what can I do to counter these tactics in turn?

I expect that Barrage Balloons have a series of methods to deal with - the most obvious of which is that they are relatively easy to see and avoid. The Anti-grav mines suggest advance drones to trigger them instead, and in the case of command detonation we're talking either jamming the in the case of remote triggers or scout/recon looking for the triggerman in the case of wired detonation.

Not to mention how TL12 sensors are going to handle looking for these sorts of threats, drone mounted sniffers and metal sensors/x-rays might well render the idea of ambush moot and instead force the defenders to focus on fortification and clear area denial.

D.

D.

 

[salochin999]

Apart from the heavy dragoon / stormtrooper idea for surprise attacks on fortified lines the other WW1 inspired idea is as the breakout unit i.e. in WWI the idea was to break the enemy line and then for the cavalry to advance through the hole and encircle the rear (horse blitzkrieg basically) but horses weren't armored enough or fast enough for that role.

To be honest I think gravs make more sense than grav bikes but visually the idea of loads of them zipping forward using cover close to the ground and then swarming up like bees to out gun a strong point and then dropping low again to advance is visually cool enough to try and make it work.