The cover of MT: Rebellion Sourcebook shows a crumbled red flag with a golden Imperial sunburst. We all know that the Imperial sunburst as a symbol doesn't have any official colors, but we also know that there are some colors that are traditionally used in certain circumstances. What are the traditions associated with the Imperial flag?
Imperial flag
- Thread starter rancke
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Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Dunno where yellow-on-red came from.
Library Data said:
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
In this case I think it is yes, that "banner" was simply used in it's definition of "flag".
So the official Imperial flag is yellow on black (which the Imperial Navy also uses) but there are also variations by organization (as noted), by territory, and perhaps other interests. Maybe the major noble houses each have their own variation, perhaps tied to and used in their territory.
I've always thought the one shown in the picture you mention was one of those examples of a territorial variation.
...and vision spectra...
Each Imperial organization has its own colours subject to the approval of the Ministry of Industry, Department of Trademarks & Patents, Directorate of Heraldry's approval.
Essentially there is a homogenious Imperial look (again somethings would have to be adapted to local conditions) but this would be a Human dominated appearance for all things. One of the things that I hated about Mongoose in the beginning was how they called the OTU the Third Imperium of Man...now I am beginning to come around, and see how it fits with Marc's vision for Traveller (and hence mine).
There is an official imperial Flag, but I go with the each organization having it's own colors. I have a whole list of organizations and their colors for use IMTU. I figured when I saw the Rebellion Sourcebook that the troopers had just taken the starport, which was defended by Imperial Marines (Red and Gold being traditional Marine Corps colors) and captured the colors in the process.
Just my take.
Just my take.
Sure, I haven't finished the description of all the armed forces, but at least I finished the Imperial Sunburst in the colour of each service. (Yes, it was a pet project - why do you think I asked Hunter to upload my gold-on-black symbol as my avatar?
)Go to my Library Data:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/index.htm
==> then to "I"
==> then to "Imperial Sunburst" You can navigate to each service from this entry.
Alternately, just click on the "Imperial Throneroom Banner" on the Intro page...
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That's nice, but you're only half done. Those colors are canonical. The question that canon doesn't answer is, what colors are the fields that those sunbursts are traditionally displayed on?
Hans
Here we go a vote for green: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w655V4hZVe0
Not so good with the quote thing, but like Andrew said earlier...
Originally Posted by Library Data:
Imperial Sunburst: The symbol of the Third Imperium established by Cleon (the first emperor) when the empire was proclaimed. Images show him standing before the original banner with a golden yellow sunburst against a black background, representing Capital's type G star against dark space.
In 247, the Eliyoh (a nonhuman minor race) joined the Imperium. To that race the symbology was unimpressive. The Eliyoh vision centered in the far infrared, which resulted in distinction between the official colors of black and yellow being impossible. So the Empress Porfiria declared that the symbol would have no official color.
The original banner in the Imperial throne room is still black with a yellow sunburst. The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service uses a red sunburst; the Imperial Navy, yellow; the Imperial Army, black; the Imperial Marines, maroon.
Originally Posted by Library Data:
Imperial Sunburst: The symbol of the Third Imperium established by Cleon (the first emperor) when the empire was proclaimed. Images show him standing before the original banner with a golden yellow sunburst against a black background, representing Capital's type G star against dark space.
In 247, the Eliyoh (a nonhuman minor race) joined the Imperium. To that race the symbology was unimpressive. The Eliyoh vision centered in the far infrared, which resulted in distinction between the official colors of black and yellow being impossible. So the Empress Porfiria declared that the symbol would have no official color.
The original banner in the Imperial throne room is still black with a yellow sunburst. The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service uses a red sunburst; the Imperial Navy, yellow; the Imperial Army, black; the Imperial Marines, maroon.
Could that have been a unit colour?
There is an article somewhere that specifies the IMC uses Gold on Red, the IN Gold on Black, the IISS Yellow on Black. The Imperium as a whole doesn't have a specified color.
ISTR it was the same article that specified the JIS rank insignia as small starbursts (1-3), then 1-3 large starbursts, then 5-point stars.
ISTR it was the same article that specified the JIS rank insignia as small starbursts (1-3), then 1-3 large starbursts, then 5-point stars.
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It could. But is it? There aren't that many easily distinguishable colors (Heraldically there are less than ten). Every domain can get its own. You'd be hard pressed to give every one of the 28 sector its own (Though with black on white being different from white on black, it can be done, at least if you forget about the metal/color concept). With individual armies, you're going to have a lot of duplication. So how likely is it that each army has its own starburst flag with no other differentiation than the colors? It's possible, but IMO unlikely.
Hans
Good point. I neglected to Google an image of the cover before I posted, and therefore it wasn't clear to me that there can't have been a distinguishing badge in the canton or something like that.
Heraldically (and AFAIK vexillologically too) gold on black and yellow on black is the same.
Hans
I think that each service has a banner in its colors as arimis stated.
But the Domains have symbols the Rebellion Sourcebook gives two Deneb is a unicorn (given by Norris when he ascended to the Archduke) the other is Antares 3 triangles. Other Domains would have distinctive symbols also.
Sector and subsector symbols would also be distinctive and descriptive IMO. Use of a sunburst in the symbology would be encouraged but not required.
BTW voted other
But the Domains have symbols the Rebellion Sourcebook gives two Deneb is a unicorn (given by Norris when he ascended to the Archduke) the other is Antares 3 triangles. Other Domains would have distinctive symbols also.
Sector and subsector symbols would also be distinctive and descriptive IMO. Use of a sunburst in the symbology would be encouraged but not required.
BTW voted other
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ONLY in European heraldry, and not even consistently so. English heraldry admits no difference; some others do, at least by use of the terms proper and/or natural, for a non-counted difference.
There is nothing to indicate the rather arbitrary distinctions within heraldry are carried forward to the 3I; canon gives a distinction between gold and yellow, and thus counter-indicates such a carryforward.
Once again, Hans, you're dragging objections based upon eurocentric trivialities
You astonish me. You know of an example of European heraldry that distinguish two coats of arms by the use of gold and yellow as two different colors? Tell me more!
The term 'natural' is different from the term 'gold' and the term 'yellow'. It requires the object depicted to have a natural color in the first place and it is described as such, not as 'gold' or 'yellow'. What is the natural color of an Imperial starburst?
There are very sound practical and not at all arbitrary reasons not to distinguish between yellow and gold or between white and silver.
I agree that if there actually is a canonical example of such a distinction being made, it's a counter-indication, to say the least. But is there? Could you provide a quote, please?
That's because the Imperium tends to demonstrate quite a lot of eurocentric features. Including the rather scanty heraldic information we have.
Hans
