Imperial flag

[rancke]

In European heraldry, the colors are specific to houses, yellow and black in house Habsburg, for example.

House colors are not really heraldry. There can be a correlation, of course, sometime a very strong one. House colors could be used in the family's heraldric achievements or colors used in heraldric achievements could be used as house colors.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I'm rather surprised at the poll results.

As of Feb 8th 2012:

The Imperial flag is red with a golden sunburst 35 = 46.05%
Each domain has its own colors (List them). 3 = 3.95%
Each sector has its own colors (List some). 0 = 0%
Each duchy has its own colors (some duplication occur). 1 = 1.32%
Each Imperial organization uses its own colors. 15 = 19.74%
All color combinations are equally valid and used side by side. 11 = 14.47%
The artist was wrong; there is no such flag (Then what's the truth?). 1 = 1.32%
Other (What?) 10 = 13.16%

I'm quite surprised that 46% feels that the flag shown in that illustration was the Imperial flag. In retrospect I would have expected the belief in black with yellow to be a lot more prevalent. (If I'd thought about it back then, I would have listed it as a choice).

I'm mildly surprised that the domains and sectors have their own colors choices scored so low.

I'm mildly surprised that the all combination are equally valid choice scored so high.

I'm not surprised that those who chose 'Other' didn't write about what they thought instead, but I wish they had; I am curious about it.

Normally I use the results of these polls of mine in my campaigns and in my future articles, but I don't think I'm going to accept that the traditional colors of the Imperial flag as used Imperium-wide is yellow on red.

Perhaps I should redo the poll and see if it comes up with a result I like better.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

House colors are not really heraldry. There can be a correlation, of course, sometime a very strong one. House colors could be used in the family's heraldric achievements or colors used in heraldric achievements could be used as house colors.


Hans

In the way the colors are used, very much so; for my family it is Red and Silver, Eagle with Sword with Vigilans et Audax as the motto, all very descriptive of time, place and stature. That is the way heraldry was used in Europe, in as much that by one's colors and such, it told the background of the bearer.

 

[rancke]

In the way the colors are used, very much so; for my family it is Red and Silver, Eagle with Sword with Vigilans et Audax as the motto, all very descriptive of time, place and stature. That is the way heraldry was used in Europe, in as much that by one's colors and such, it told the background of the bearer.

Running around with a surcoat that displays a heraldic achievement is related to heraldry. Running around in red and white clothes isn't heraldry, even if your heraldic achievement uses red and silver as its colors. For one thing, you (or you and your family) are the only ones entitled to use your coat of arms. Anyone are allowed to wear white and red clothes.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Running around with a surcoat that displays a heraldic achievement is related to heraldry. Running around in red and white clothes isn't heraldry, even if your heraldic achievement uses red and silver as its colors. For one thing, you (or you and your family) are the only ones entitled to use your coat of arms. Anyone are allowed to wear white and red clothes.


Hans

Sort of, one reason as to why the Almanach de Gotha was created was to sort out the different lines. In battle, wearing the wrong colors could be deadly, which is important for reasons as why the guidons of various troops (which is how national flags developed) were usually just the colors and not the full heraldry as one couldn't see it, individual soldiers also wore the house color tunics over their armor as distinctive indentifiers. Heraldry could be rather useless if you couldn't read, which most people could not for a long time.

 

[rancke]

Sort of, one reason as to why the Almanach de Gotha was created was to sort out the different lines. In battle, wearing the wrong colors could be deadly, which is important for reasons as why the guidons of various troops (which is how national flags developed) were usually just the colors and not the full heraldry as one couldn't see it, individual soldiers also wore the house color tunics over their armor as distinctive indentifiers. Heraldry could be rather useless if you couldn't read, which most people could not for a long time.

Uniforms and distinguishing marks like Japanese mons are as old as history. The heraldric tradition that evolved in Europe has the unique feature of identifying individuals rather than sides (which, comes to think of it, makes 'European heraldry' a tautology -- referring to other such devices as heraldry is a fallacy (at least according to the books written by European heralds that I've read ).

In any case, while it may be defensible to refer to mere identifying marks as heraldry (fallacious, but arguable), it is definitely going too far to refer to uniform colors as heraldry. Even household uniform colors. Or sports team colors.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Uniforms and distinguishing marks like Japanese mons are as old as history. The heraldric tradition that evolved in Europe has the unique feature of identifying individuals rather than sides (which, comes to think of it, makes 'European heraldry' a tautology -- referring to other such devices as heraldry is a fallacy (at least according to the books written by European heralds that I've read ).

In any case, while it may be defensible to refer to mere identifying marks as heraldry (fallacious, but arguable), it is definitely going too far to refer to uniform colors as heraldry. Even household uniform colors. Or sports team colors.


Hans

European Heraldry is about warfare:

Heraldry comes from Anglo-Norman herald, from the Germanic compound harja-waldaz, "army commander". The word, in its most general sense, encompasses all matters relating to the duties and responsibilities of officers of arms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry

Which definitely went to late 19th early 20th cent. for the uniform colors of various nations.

 

[rancke]

European Heraldry is about warfare:

Heraldry comes from Anglo-Norman herald, from the Germanic compound harja-waldaz, "army commander". The word, in its most general sense, encompasses all matters relating to the duties and responsibilities of officers of arms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry

That's a very narrow reading of the text you quote and one that's completely wrong. You overlooked one step in the chain: Heraldry comes from herald, which in turn comes from 'harja-waldaz'. Along the way it lost the army commander connotation and acquired the meaning 'herald' still holds today.

Officers of arms don't have anything to do with commanding troops either. It's more or less synonymous with 'herald'. A bit more specialized, I believe.

European heraldry grew out of early mediaval warfare when the heralds became experts at identifying individual knights on the battlefield and at tournaments. That's the only connection with warfare.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

That's a very narrow reading of the text you quote and one that's completely wrong. You overlooked one step in the chain: Heraldry comes from herald, which in turn comes from 'harja-waldaz'. Along the way it lost the army commander connotation and acquired the meaning 'herald' still holds today.

Officers of arms don't have anything to do with commanding troops either. It's more or less synonymous with 'herald'. A bit more specialized, I believe.

European heraldry grew out of early mediaval warfare when the heralds became experts at identifying individual knights on the battlefield and at tournaments. That's the only connection with warfare.


Hans

A herald announces the presence of nobility, however, nobility comes from leading troops. Such as a "Duke" is from Dux, the old Roman military commander. Even Imperator, is just latin for commander or general. History is what it is, whether one wishes to view it as "wrong" due to modern day philosophy.

 

[Thanos]

Well in all fairness I chickened out. I voted other but didn't post until now as I barely grasp the broad stokes of the 3I let alone the minutia. I assumed that the flag would be black with yellow/gold sun as you see (or at least I do) it everywhere. Also I would assume the sectors and houses would have their own flags that that do not have the imperial symbol on them.

Consider: currently outside my office we are flying in order the US flag and the state of NY flag. So imperial and sector flag. House flags would appear on personal property of the house when a person of significance is in residence.

 

[rancke]

A herald announces the presence of nobility, however, nobility comes from leading troops. Such as a "Duke" is from Dux, the old Roman military commander. Even Imperator, is just latin for commander or general. History is what it is, whether one wishes to view it as "wrong" due to modern day philosophy.

Now you're meandering off into irrelevancy. A doctor patches up soldiers. A chaplain preaches to soldiers. A cook cooks food for soldiers. That doesn't make them army commanders.

A herald was not an army commander no matter what the etymology of the word or who he hobnobbed with.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Running around with a surcoat that displays a heraldic achievement is related to heraldry. Running around in red and white clothes isn't heraldry, even if your heraldic achievement uses red and silver as its colors. For one thing, you (or you and your family) are the only ones entitled to use your coat of arms. Anyone are allowed to wear white and red clothes.


Hans

Livery is covered under heraldry. See Fox-Davies, a Complete Guide to Heraldry. He makes several interesting observations, including that white and silver can be heraldrically distinguished in English heraldry, that Skye and Asure are different in East European Heraldry, and that Skye is used sans proper in some Italian arms.

Note also, Hans, items blazoned "proper" or "natural" can't normally be on fields of the similar coloration, but exceptions HAVE been made for both silver on white and yellow on gold. Mostly German arms; I've seen documentation of such on the rolls of SCA armorial submissions; I've also seen Laurel King of Arms reject them forthwith if they are for anything other than armed/langued, and not accompanied by scribal notes to use separate use of gold and yellow.

The list of heraldic shades in ACGTH is Or/Yellow, Az, White*, Gules/Red, Azure/Blue, Vert/Green, Sable/Black, Murrey/Sanguine/BloodRed, Mur/dark-reddish-purple, Purpure/Purple, Tenne/orange-tawny, Brunatre/"a brown color", Skye/Blue-Celeste, Amaranth/Columbine, Carnation/Flesh, Iron Grey, Earth, Brown, water and orange.

The list for ENGLISH heraldry is shorter...
Or/Yellow (no distinction betwixt them), Argent*, Gules, Vert, Azure, Sable, Purpure, Murrey, and Tenne.

*ACGTH, p. 70-71, noting that the royal label for the Prince of Wales is white, and is placed upon the supporters and crest as part of the achievement... including the argent unicorn.

I'll note that, in practice, the lion in the English arms ALSO bears a crown, and that the crown is of gilt, while the lion is often depicted yellow, if not tawny-yellow, despite both being blazoned Or. This is not, however, requisite.

I'll note as well that the current displayed Royal Labels are depicted on a white unicorn and are finely fimbriated sable despite not being blazoned such.

 

[Dragoner]

Now you're meandering off into irrelevancy. A doctor patches up soldiers. A chaplain preaches to soldiers. A cook cooks food for soldiers. That doesn't make them army commanders.

A herald was not an army commander no matter what the etymology of the word or who he hobnobbed with.


Hans

You miss the point: a herald announces the presence of a commander, eg "heraldry."

...and that Imperial Rome, Monarchist Europe and the 3I; military dictatorships all. Welcome home son.

 

[rancke]

You miss the point: a herald announces the presence of a commander, eg "heraldry."

Your point is wrong. It explains why a herald was originally called a herald. Heraldry is named after the functions he subsequently bega to perform, so it has little or nothing to do with what heralds used to do and everything to do with what they did later.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

....and everything to do with what they did later.


Hans

Which was what again? Monarchism in Europe ended with what was called: "The Great War", the worst war in history to that point. Austria outright banned titles of nobility afterwards.

 

[rancke]

Which was what again?

Did you read the article you linked to?

"Heraldry is the profession, study, or art of creating, granting, and blazoning arms and ruling on questions of rank or protocol, as exercised by an officer of arms".​

Monarchism in Europe ended with what was called: "The Great War", the worst war in history to that point. Austria outright banned titles of nobility afterwards.

I could refute that, but I won't bother since I'm at a loss as to what that has got to do with the discussion.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Did you read the article you linked to?

"Heraldry is the profession, study, or art of creating, granting, and blazoning arms and ruling on questions of rank or protocol, as exercised by an officer of arms".​

I could refute that, but I won't bother since I'm at a loss as to what that has got to do with the discussion.


Hans

Yes read it, that is just one sentence of the article.

You can refute history?

 

[rancke]

Livery is covered under heraldry. See Fox-Davies, a Complete Guide to Heraldry. He makes several interesting observations, including that white and silver can be heraldrically distinguished in English heraldry, that Skye and Asure are different in East European Heraldry, and that Skye is used sans proper in some Italian arms.

Then he disagrees with the books I've read on the subject. This is really something that is accepted by any heraldic authority today?

Note also, Hans, items blazoned "proper" or "natural" can't normally be on fields of the similar coloration, but exceptions HAVE been made for both silver on white and yellow on gold. Mostly German arms; I've seen documentation of such on the rolls of SCA armorial submissions; I've also seen Laurel King of Arms reject them forthwith if they are for anything other than armed/langued, and not accompanied by scribal notes to use separate use of gold and yellow.

You astonish me. Unless you're talking about allowing 'propre' tinktures that happen to be silver or gold on white and yellow fields. I was aware of that possibility, but didn't count them since they are small details of charges, not full charges or divisions. Though I admit that I would have expected such details to be silver on silver and gold on gold, not silver on white or gold on yellow.

I believe such small details likewise allows color on the same color (one common example are red tongues and claws on red fields). I'm sorry if I appear to be crawfishing, but I really didn't count that sort of details. If you can show me an example of two coats of arms that are otherwise identical and distinguished only by the charge or division on one being white/yellow and the same charge or division on the other being silver/gold, then I'll be only too happy to concede the point.

(Well, no, I won't be happy, since it would deeply offend my heraldric beliefs, but I will concede. )


Hans

 

[rancke]

Yes read it, that is just one sentence of the article.

You can refute history?

I can read English and use a dictionary.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I can read English and use a dictionary.


Hans

Then you should check out 2.