Imperial Navy Officer corps

[rancke]

Chris Thrash found a breakdown of the US Navy into its different ranks for me. Here are some calculations I've made based on those figures:

* Assuming that an IN regular fleet is organized roughly analogous to the US Navy.
* Assuming the figures in Rebellion Sourcebook are reasonably accurate.
* Assuming battleships have an average crew size equal to the average of the three battleships featured in Fighting Ships (= 2,250).
* Assuming cruisers and carriers have an average crew size equal to the average of the nine cruisers and carriers featured in Fighting Ships (= 400).
* Assuming fleets have an average of 9 squadrons (RbS says 8-10).
* Assuming squadrons have an average of 7 combat vessels (Note: squadrons would usually have 8 or 6 (or 4) combat vessels, almost never an odd number).
* Assuming 2 CruRons for every BatRon.
* Assuming crew for smaller ships (escorts, destroyers, couriers, auxiliaries, etc.) equals 10% of crew for combat vessels.
* Assuming 3 groundbased employees for every shipboard employee.

Then the average personnel of a regular fleet (excluding the reserve fleet) would be 281,810 (of which 93,940 would be civilian employees).

Given the number of potential inaccuracies, it would probably be acceptable to round those figures off to 300,000 and 100,000.

In which case a fleet would need 126 flag officers: 6 admirals, 18 vice admirals, 42 rear admirals, and 66 commodores.

(As a bonus, we also get an estimated size of the entire Imperial Navy (not counting reserve fleets): 90 million men).

EDIT: Added a left-out assumption above.


Hans

 

[OIT]

Hans,
Please excuse my ignorance (I never got into MT), but how many batrons, crurons, and carrons per fleet?

thanks.

OIT

 

[rancke]

Please excuse my ignorance (I never got into MT), but how many batrons, crurons, and carrons per fleet?

Oh, sorry. Rebellion Sourcebook says 8-10 squadrons per fleet. Proportion of BatRons to CruRons is an assumption of mine, and I've also ignored the existence of other squadron types (TankRons and AssRons... sorry, AssaultRons).

RbS also says 1000 combat vessels (cruisers and up) per sector ('theoretically', whatever that implies). One interpretation (the one I use) makes that an average of 62.5 combat vessels per fleet.


Hans

 

[aramis]

As a canonista note:

MT redefines the admiralty ranks... here's the navy officer list (MT PM 55):

Rank Officer
01 Ensign
02 Sublieutenant
03 Lieutenant
04 Lieutenant Commander
05 Commander
06 Captain
07 Commodore
08 Fleet Admiral
09 Sector Admiral
010 Grand Admiral

Presuming the rank change was to reflect assigned roles post 5FW... you need a lot more commodores and a lot fewer admirals.

 

[rancke]

MT redefines the admiralty ranks...

No, it didn't. Those are the same ten ranks that High Guard introduced.

The problem was and is that for the army, the ten officer ranks corresponded pretty well to what someone used to 20th Century Earth armies would recognize: O7s commanded brigades, O8s commanded divisions, O9s commanded armies, and O10s commanded army corps, and presumably there were no army formations greater than that, roughly what you could expect to assemble on a single world. For the Navy, however, some O8s -- supposedly the rank-equivalent of a lowly major general -- commanded fleets that covered an entire subsector, more than even army O10s could expect to command. It's my belief that someone who commands a regular IN fleet is NOT the rank-equivalent of someone who commands a mere army division.

You also need more command levels, and while one rank can be stretched to cover several command levels, said rank will be considered the rank-equivalent of the highest of those command levels, not the lowest. I submit that if the IN really don't have more than ten officer ranks, then Fleet Admiral would have to cover three or even four command levels.

Presuming the rank change was to reflect assigned roles post 5FW... you need a lot more commodores and a lot fewer admirals.

The USN has one admiral for every commodore -- that is, 1 O10, 2 O9s, and 7 O8s for every 11 O7s (Yes, I know that in the USN commodores aren't called commodores -- I mean one-star admirals).


Hans

 

[WarriorKnight]

The USN has one admiral for every commodore -- that is, 1 O10, 2 O9s, and 7 O8s for every 11 O7s (Yes, I know that in the USN commodores aren't called commodores -- I mean one-star admirals).


Hans

The rank title now is Rear Admrial Lower Half. ; )

 

[sebsmith]

The US military is probably a good source for assets, but it has to be a horrible source for deciding the size of the officer corp. As I understand, during the reagan administration we increased our officer corp so it could have all the normal enlisted spots filled out and then be large enough for World War 3. If that's correct, no imperial force would have as many officers to assets as we do.

It should also be noted, a number of higher officer ranks are war time only ranks and probably rare enough characters would not still be playable if they achieved them.

 

[rancke]

The US military is probably a good source for assets, but it has to be a horrible source for deciding the size of the officer corp. As I understand, during the reagan administration we increased our officer corp so it could have all the normal enlisted spots filled out and then be large enough for World War 3. If that's correct, no imperial force would have as many officers to assets as we do.

Unless the Imperial Navy has enough officers that it can have all the normal enlisted spots filled out and then be large enough to fight wars with the Zhodani and the Solomani simultaneously. However, I'm willing enough to modify my numbers. I've been trying to find similar data about other current navies, but so far with no luck.

I should note that the number of O10 admirals in the USN is limited to 11, but that this limit does not apply in emergencies (like world wars).

It should also be noted, a number of higher officer ranks are war time only ranks and probably rare enough characters would not still be playable if they achieved them.

As far as I'm concerned, even (ex) fleet admirals are not really plausible as PCs except in rare high-level campaigns. Ex-commodores... well, maybe.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The rank title now is Rear Admrial Lower Half. ; )

Yes, but the title in the Imperial Navy (and, it would seem, every other space navy in Charted Space ) is 'commodore'.



Hans

 

[Major B]

The problem was and is that for the army, the ten officer ranks corresponded pretty well to what someone used to 20th Century Earth armies would recognize: O7s commanded brigades, O8s commanded divisions, O9s commanded armies, and O10s commanded army corps, and presumably there were no army formations greater than that, roughly what you could expect to assemble on a single world.

Hans, I believe you transposed armies and corps in the above.

I agree with your assessment regarding comparable levels of responsibility between flag ranks in the army and navy. One other way to adjust with plausibility can be drawn from current US military command assignments. US Army corps and armies are now both commanded by 3-star generals - the 4-star billets are reserved for commands higher than armies such as the Geographic Combatant Commands (GCCs). And many of the most senior positions are considered joint and so are open to flag officers of any military branch, a concept not found in any traveller version that I've read.

From that example, admirals of varying echelons can be the same grade or rank but their authority will be based more on their assigned position rather than simply their rank.

Or think of it as: All Admirals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

 

[rancke]

I agree with your assessment regarding comparable levels of responsibility between flag ranks in the army and navy.

And that's the only fundamental problem I have with current canon. I mean, I'd prefer it if the two or three command levels between (some) squadron commands (i.e. Commodores) and fleet command (i.e. Fleet Admiral) was filled by interpolating rear and vice admirals (and possibly 'just plain' admirals). It seems neater that way. But I could accept 'Fleet Admiral' being divided into three or four levels, with 'Fleet Admiral (Upper Hundredth)' being assigned to actual fleet commands, 'Fleet Admiral (Upper Tenth)' being assigned to system commands, 'Fleet Admiral (Middle Three Tenths)' being assigned to groups of squdrons, and 'Fleet Admiral (Lower Seven Tenths)'[*] being assigned to battleship squadrons.

But if they were, I submit that 'Fleet Admiral (Upper Hundredth)' would be O11, not O8. After all, in the USN, 'Rear Admiral (Upper Half)' is O8 while 'Rear Admiral (Lower Half)' is O7. So in the final analysis, they really aren't the same rank at all.

[*] Not quite as snappy as 'Rear Admiral (Upper Half)' and 'Rear Admiral (Lower Half)' but what're you gonna do?​

One other way to adjust with plausibility can be drawn from current US military command assignments. US Army corps and armies are now both commanded by 3-star generals - the 4-star billets are reserved for commands higher than armies such as the Geographic Combatant Commands (GCCs).

That's not really the point that bothers me. What bothers me is that 4-star admirals and generals don't get paid the same as 1-star admirals and generals on the grounds that "they're all the same rank". If the 'Fleet Admiral' title covered three or four command levels, it would also cover three or four pay grades. And prestige "grades".

Or think of it as: All Admirals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

I disagree. And Army Generals are most certainly NOT equal to Grand Admirals. That is to say, I can't see how that could possibly be the case. Which brings us back to Grand Admirals being O13 or O14, not O10 as canon claims.


Hans

 

[Ranger]

Well, I was originally taken aback by the number of flag officers as well, but on further reflection I don’t think it is that out of line, and can be made to work without too much effort.

First, in addition to the fleet itself, there is a very large “shore side” support infrastructure that will consume a lot of those flag officers who are either waiting for a command billet or have finished up their careers and are marking time to retirement. I imagine that besides the marked naval bases, every major starport has to have a naval liaison who will probably be an admiral of some rank to coordinate naval traffic as well as gather information for the naval intel people on the local situation.

Also, in the fleet, each command level with have multiple flag officer billets. An O10 fleet commander will probably have at least one and maybe two O9s working directly for him, and a few O8s and O7 as well on his staff.

As to the ranks capping out, that can be worked around by positing that official rank caps out at O10 (fleet command) and that above that is an appointment of authority directly from the Emperor. No new rank needed, just the appointment of command.


Just my thoughts.

 

[rancke]

As to the ranks capping out, that can be worked around by positing that official rank caps out at O10 (fleet command)...

Yes, that would work too. But it would likewise be contrary to canon, which has the Sector Admiral and Grand Admiral ranks above that of Fleet Admiral. Also, canonical background information has half a dozen mentions of vice and rear admirals serving in positions below fleet command. So if canon is to have a retcon anyway (and I submit that it would benefit from one), why not make it one that requires the least changes and legitimizes those vice and rear admirals?


Hans

 

[aramis]

I think the issue is one of the titles needing to match the relative levels of authority. But that authority should NOT be measured in manpower.

Keep in mind:
1) A naval captain, in almost all navies, commands a ship of the line, of whatever size that might be.
2) A naval Captain's commission cost both the Captain and the Crown about the same as a ground Colonel's commission, but that ground colonel, until very recently, almost always commanded more men than his naval Captain equivalent. Both, however, commanded commands with similar cost totals in equipment and ops costs.
3) modern militaries have subdivided the flag grades far more than did their historical counterparts; this may be a transitory thing.
4) Modern US miliary policy has an up-or-out policy, no such policy is in evidence in the 3I; US ranks are tailored for that up-or-out policy.

Let's compare some Cruisers.
1930s Deutchland: 1150 man
1920's HMS Frobisher (D81): 690 man
1940's Prinz Eugen: 1600
1930's Mara (IJS): 930-990
1909 SMS Emden: 360
1914 HMS Caroline: 325
1980's Kirov: 710

All of these were Captain's commands, often with senior ships carrying the squadron flag officer as well.

1860's cruisers numbered men in the 200-300 range, as well.
All of them were captain's commands. So were most battleships/Ships of the Line, with crews up to double those of the cruisers


I don't see why the IN wouldn't simply make Fleet Admiral the fleet-level admiral grade, and simply rely upon positional authority. Likewise, the IN doesn't promote terribly fast; presuming basic gen, Admiral is at least 5 terms (20 years); under HG, assuing only one attahe per term, and entry as a Lt, it's possible to make O10 in 4 terms active (Acad w/Hon (O2), Flt Sch/MedSch (O3), 4 T w/ Attache and non-Attache promotions) but incredibly unlikely. Expect 7 T (Acad w/Hon, 2 attache assignments, 6 terms active) to 10 T... given the attrition rates and mandatory retrement, there won't be all that many flag officers.

Those Grand Admirals are going to have been rapid-risers. Lots of attache duties, honors graduates, and most are retained past retrirement... and they don't stay in. Only 1/36 of admirals stay in, typically, based upon the CGen... so a 36:1 ratio seems about right.

 

[Ranger]

Yes, that would work too. But it would likewise be contrary to canon, which has the Sector Admiral and Grand Admiral ranks above that of Fleet Admiral. Also, canonical background information has half a dozen mentions of vice and rear admirals serving in positions below fleet command. So if canon is to have a retcon anyway (and I submit that it would benefit from one), why not make it one that requires the least changes and legitimizes those vice and rear admirals?


Hans

But are we really sure that Sector Admiral and Grand Admiral ranks are actual pay grades or are they titles of authority?

I was thinking that the letter of appointment would be a form of Imperial Warent, but limited to the command authority nessessary to carry out the position.

As to the issue of admirals working at lower levels, that can be delt with by positing that an individual never loses rank even if they are posted to a position of lower responability.* That's not how most western militaries work, but I have seen it done in Eastern Europe, where an individual can actually be posted to a job, and work for an officer that they tecnically outrank. Not a common event, but not unheard of either (I actually saw an O5 working for an O4 once).

* In the US system, flag rank goes with the position, so if you are a three star, and you get posted to a position that is only rated for a two star, you lose the third star. Its often used to push people into retirement.

 

[rancke]

But are we really sure that Sector Admiral and Grand Admiral ranks are actual pay grades or are they titles of authority?

According to the rules they're substantive ranks (and thus, presumably, pay grades). Sector Admiral is O9 and Grand Admiral is O10.

As to the issue of admirals working at lower levels, that can be dealt with by positing that an individual never loses rank even if they are posted to a position of lower responsibility.

I don't see how that would solve the problem.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I think the issue is one of the titles needing to match the relative levels of authority. But that authority should NOT be measured in manpower.

No, it's a question of the jobs needing to match the relative levels of authority. Command of all Army forces on a single world held by someone of rank O10 vs. command of all navy forces across 30 worlds held by someone of rank O8. This is not reasonable.

Keep in mind:
1) A naval captain, in almost all navies, commands a ship of the line, of whatever size that might be.
2) A naval Captain's commission cost both the Captain and the Crown about the same as a ground Colonel's commission, but that ground colonel, until very recently, almost always commanded more men than his naval Captain equivalent. Both, however, commanded commands with similar cost totals in equipment and ops costs.

I believe that back in the day, ships-of-the-line had crews that matched the size of a regiment, although I can't be sure, as I don't know the usual size of a regiment back then. But a 3rd rate had a crew of more than 600, while the crew of a 1st rate was close to 1000.

Besides, if you go by cost total of equipment and ops costs, a space navy captain would be the equivalent of one of the army flag ranks.

3) modern militaries have subdivided the flag grades far more than did their historical counterparts; this may be a transitory thing.

The Royal Navy of the Napoleonic Era had nine flag ranks; 11 if you count commodore with a captain under him and commodore without a captain under him (pay and share of prize money for the first kind of commodore was that of a rear admiral and for the second kind that of a captain though, so there's an argument for not counting them).

4) Modern US miliary policy has an up-or-out policy, no such policy is in evidence in the 3I; US ranks are tailored for that up-or-out policy.

For O10s it's a "get another job or out" policy, so the top US admirals tend to play musical chairs.

Be that as it may, the USN may not be a perfect analogy for the Imperial Navy, but it is a Real World example, and it's the only one I've been able to find (that is, Chris Thrash found it). I've been trying to find the figures for the Danish navy, but even if I find them, they're going to be skewed, because the Danish Navy is very small. I know that we don't have any admirals, and we don't use O7s-- captains gets promoted directly to O8.

... 1860s cruisers numbered men in the 200-300 range, as well.
All of them were captain's commands. So were most battleships/Ships of the Line, with crews up to double those of the cruisers

I don't understand where you're going twith this. A ship is a captain's command as soon as it is bigger than those given to Commanders. Which would be around 300 men.

I don't see why the IN wouldn't simply make Fleet Admiral the fleet-level admiral grade, and simply rely upon positional authority.

I don't either, but whether they did or not (and the rules says Sector Admiral and Grand Admiral are ranks), the commander of a fleet that covered a subsector would not, IMO, be the rank-equivalent of the commander of an army division. Which they are according to current canon. Which is why I think current canon ought to be retconned. There are several possible ways they could be retconned, and they all work. I just think that the one that changes canon about Sector Admirals and Grand Admirals least AND legitimizes canonical references to vice and rear admirals is a better choice than the other possible solutions.

Likewise, the IN doesn't promote terribly fast; presuming basic gen, Admiral is at least 5 terms (20 years); under HG, assuing only one attahe per term, and entry as a Lt, it's possible to make O10 in 4 terms active (Acad w/Hon (O2), Flt Sch/MedSch (O3), 4 T w/ Attache and non-Attache promotions) but incredibly unlikely. Expect 7 T (Acad w/Hon, 2 attache assignments, 6 terms active) to 10 T... given the attrition rates and mandatory retrement, there won't be all that many flag officers.

Even if we assume for purposes or argument that the character generation system accurately reflect conditions in the Imperial Navy (an ssumption I'm quite unwilling to accept for anything other than purposes of argument), that just becomes a question of runnning enough people through the system.

Those Grand Admirals are going to have been rapid-risers. Lots of attache duties, honors graduates, and most are retained past retirement... and they don't stay in. Only 1/36 of admirals stay in, typically, based upon the CGen... so a 36:1 ratio seems about right.

One way the CGen system seems to me to be flawed is that it doesn't give people with noble titles a bonus to getting assigned as attache or aide, and that it requires them to roll for reenlistment with exactly the same chance of getting kicked out as the lowliest lower class yobbo. Sure, the younger son of a count or duke might be eased out of the service -- if he annoyed a count or a duke. But otherwise, I firmly believe that any admiral of high social level would stay in the navy for as long as he wanted to. Who would presume to cashier him?


Hans

 

[aramis]

In the 1860's, a captains command was 200-300 men, Hans. Now, it's anything from 300-2000 men. Heck, the actual CO of a CVAN is usually a Captain, with 4000 men, and a technically subordinate Captain, the CAG, commanding another 1500 aboard for the air wing. The admiral commands the Carrier Group, not the carrier itself. (Tho a captain commanding a CV or a BB can be promoted to RALH in place.)

Captain's commands have always been ships (3 masts+), with junior captains getting smaller ships, and senior captains "promoting" to larger ships, by posting. Note that Admiral Nelson didn't command the HMS Victory; her Captain was Samuel Sutton. Nelson commanded the fleet from the Sutton.

Likewise, the US Naval terms for admirals are tied to historical deployment patterns. A Squadron or minor base was a Rear Admiral. A Task Force or Group, or a major base, was a Vice Admiral. A Fleet was an Admiral. A commodore was a captain commanding a group of ships, be it a line or squadron, or an academic center (USNA, NWC, USMMA).

Essentially, using the US as a model is BADLY broken (a complaint I have abut almost all of Chris' extrapolations is that they are mired in a yanks-in-space mode of thought). The US model is a warping of the british model.

We (yanks) have up or out. We have a system of purely political promotion past O8. In fact, historically, the Navy simply didn't use a 1 star rank in the USN from 1899 until WWII.

As for forcing out: the bigger the organization, the easier it is to force people out. The CGen system (pre T20 and MGT) didn't provide for being demoted, either, tho the possibility is reasonable. The 7 term limit, if reasonably applied, puts those flags at a reasonable rate of retirement... and forces the higher grades o9/o10 to be appropriately rare. (What I have done in play is grant a 1 term reprieve to flag officers promoted... but that's not based at all upon the rules.)

Realisitcally, there is little organizational need for multiple flag ranks above the explicit labels.
Captains command ships; Commanders Escorts and below with a Fleet Captain commanding the 'ron. Commodores command ship Rons and minor bases. 2 stars command numbered and reserve fleets, major bases, and colonial fleets of sufficient size. 3 stars command sectors and theaters. 4 stars command domains and/or wars.
No need for intermediate ranks, since intermediate levels of command don't aparently exist.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Color me amused.

Funny thing here is that everyone here seems to act like Captains are only Captains.

However in practice, Captain is the Officer in Command of a Navy Vessel, period. Old JFK (for example) was once a Captain, and all he commanded was a PT with under twenty men under him (until he lost his boat, which should have got him in the dock explaining it, but once again, politics. :frankie. So really is kind of silly to run around saying Captains have this many spacers under their command.

In addition Commodore is a courtesy rank given to rank Captains when aboard vessels commanded by Captains (by rank) or lower grades so as to prevent confusion between the vessel's Captain (who is the responsible officer commanding) and the Captain who is on board but has no command authority.

And last but not least, I rather figure that the IN keeps folks employed and that is why they don't have the old US up and out problem, they like keeping experienced folks around. Which makes sense what with all the pirate actions and wars that the Empire has going throughout history.

Just my CrImps 2. Otherwise enjoying the debate.

 

[Putraack]

The Royal Navy of the Napoleonic Era had nine flag ranks; 11 if you count commodore with a captain under him and commodore without a captain under him (pay and share of prize money for the first kind of commodore was that of a rear admiral and for the second kind that of a captain though, so there's an argument for not counting them).

I might suggest this as a better-sounding model than "Fleet Admiral (Upper Tenth)". The RN had Rear-, Vice-, and Admirals or the Red, White and Blue (I think I may have that reversed), to denote seniority. The IN could use something like this to denote squadron, fleet and sector commands. Those with higher seniority (or what have you) command the bigger ones of that level.

I do agree that this seems to equate an army commander of one world, with a naval commander who oversees lots of systems. I'm not sure that feels right, but the groundpounder will usually have a lot more people under command, if that matters.