I think that quote should really be:
"When Scouts are in the field, away from civilization, (for example, when on shipboard survey or planetside wilderness exploration), they wear whatever they want to."
Imperial Navy uniform
- Thread starter Mithras
- Start date
I think that quote should really be:
"When Scouts are in the field, away from civilization, (for example, when on shipboard survey or planetside wilderness exploration), they wear whatever they want to."
Hi,
Overall I'm not really against high-collars, its just that they don't really seem like they'd be that comfortable to me, especially for a uniform that is to be worn regularly. For a dress uniform, my preference would be to do without them as well, but I can see why some people might prefer them.
Overall, I guess one of the things that sits in the back of my mind is when on the Star Trek: The Next Generation show a few years in they modified the uniforms to have a high collar it always struck me that the rank insignia might rub against a person's neck.
Early Style ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Later High-Neck Style
As for undergarments, I don't really have any issues with assuming the Traveller Tech stuff might be much more advanced, though I have my doubts that a one piece type pressure suit would be workable. To me, people (and maybe even other Traveller races) seem to be not really suited to a "one-piece" lifestyle, or to maybe word it better, there just seems to me that there are too many situations where having the ability to remove or pull-up/down either the top or bottom of an undergarment would be desirable.
Similarly, as a person moves about, having a garment in two or more pieces would seem to me to better allow for the materials of the garment(s) to stretch and move to accommodate a person's movements than they would if it were a single one-piece (or even a two piece undergarment where the tops and bottoms are somehow secured together to be able to act as a "p-suit").
To me it would seem that such a garment would likely need to be able to stretch a fair bit to accommodate the bending of a person's knees and elbows etc while not 'bunching" too much on the opposite side of the knee or elbow while also being able to stretch to accommodate muscle flexing and the like. In regular multi-part clothing, as you sit, your lower pants leg can "ride up" just a bit as you bend your knee, and similarly your fore arm can do the same. For a single-piece "p-suit" it's unclear how this might be accommodated.
In addition, certain body parts may require certain special needs, such as the ability to remove seat/moisture and/or provide extra cooling as well as possible added padding or re-enforcement all of which (in addition to the above stuff) makes it hard for me to see a "p-suit' type undergarment as being all that practical.
Overall I'm not really against high-collars, its just that they don't really seem like they'd be that comfortable to me, especially for a uniform that is to be worn regularly. For a dress uniform, my preference would be to do without them as well, but I can see why some people might prefer them.
Overall, I guess one of the things that sits in the back of my mind is when on the Star Trek: The Next Generation show a few years in they modified the uniforms to have a high collar it always struck me that the rank insignia might rub against a person's neck.
Early Style ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Later High-Neck Style
As for undergarments, I don't really have any issues with assuming the Traveller Tech stuff might be much more advanced, though I have my doubts that a one piece type pressure suit would be workable. To me, people (and maybe even other Traveller races) seem to be not really suited to a "one-piece" lifestyle, or to maybe word it better, there just seems to me that there are too many situations where having the ability to remove or pull-up/down either the top or bottom of an undergarment would be desirable.
Similarly, as a person moves about, having a garment in two or more pieces would seem to me to better allow for the materials of the garment(s) to stretch and move to accommodate a person's movements than they would if it were a single one-piece (or even a two piece undergarment where the tops and bottoms are somehow secured together to be able to act as a "p-suit").
To me it would seem that such a garment would likely need to be able to stretch a fair bit to accommodate the bending of a person's knees and elbows etc while not 'bunching" too much on the opposite side of the knee or elbow while also being able to stretch to accommodate muscle flexing and the like. In regular multi-part clothing, as you sit, your lower pants leg can "ride up" just a bit as you bend your knee, and similarly your fore arm can do the same. For a single-piece "p-suit" it's unclear how this might be accommodated.
In addition, certain body parts may require certain special needs, such as the ability to remove seat/moisture and/or provide extra cooling as well as possible added padding or re-enforcement all of which (in addition to the above stuff) makes it hard for me to see a "p-suit' type undergarment as being all that practical.
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PFVA, you are stuck on an old-school idea of a light duty vacc suit as a pressurized air-sack.
It's not. Current designs are looking at only the head being in air; mechanical pressure, rather than atmospheric pressure, being used elsewhere to prevent vacuum bruising. (Even then, it doesn't need more than 250mB to do that. 100mb might even do. Heck, I sleep with a breathed air pressure 350mB above ambient, and breath just fine. CPAP.)
It's not. Current designs are looking at only the head being in air; mechanical pressure, rather than atmospheric pressure, being used elsewhere to prevent vacuum bruising. (Even then, it doesn't need more than 250mB to do that. 100mb might even do. Heck, I sleep with a breathed air pressure 350mB above ambient, and breath just fine. CPAP.)
Hi.
I've looked at some of the more modern designs but they still don't seem very practicable as an all purpose under garment. For use as a light weight extra-vehicular/outdoors type suit they may be OK, but to me they just don't seem like something that would work as a full time under garment.
I've looked at some of the more modern designs but they still don't seem very practicable as an all purpose under garment. For use as a light weight extra-vehicular/outdoors type suit they may be OK, but to me they just don't seem like something that would work as a full time under garment.
The U.S. has found it is better to have a one piece suit... Subs not being too different than a space ship.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
The U.S. has found it is better to have a one piece suit... Subs not being too different than a space ship.
It is a loose fitting work coverall. They are comfortable and you can bend, flex, etc. I'm not to keen on a "form fitting" snug uniform.
Not as undergarment. As outfit in total.
Last I checked, NASA was aiming for 10+ PSI, instead of the 3.5 estimated to be needed. That alone will reduce the bulk and difficulty.
As I understand it, from reading some of the NASA studies, the big engineering challenge with skinsuits is creating a seal where the neck of the suit meets the helmet.
This is a practical reason why high collars might be "a la mode". Most of the solutions assume some kind of separate pressure collar that creates a dam around the neck and something for the helmet to lock to.
How high in TL would we have to go to have flexible, adhesive seals capable of containing pressure instead of a separate collar piece?
This is a practical reason why high collars might be "a la mode". Most of the solutions assume some kind of separate pressure collar that creates a dam around the neck and something for the helmet to lock to.
How high in TL would we have to go to have flexible, adhesive seals capable of containing pressure instead of a separate collar piece?
The U.S. has found it is better to have a one piece suit... Subs not being too different than a space ship.
Hi,
That's a good point. I guess one-piece "coveralls" probably are pretty practical. [Edit]My previous comments on one piece stuff were mainly in response to some of the posts by others suggesting the use of an undergarment that doubled as a "pressure suit". And[/Edit] as Vladika notes, the stuff used by the Military (as well as shipyard workers, etc) tend to be fairly loose fitting and as a "coverall" they are external clothing that fits over your undergarments. As such, when a person would have to use a fresher/restroom facilities, there would be no need to almost completely disrobe, as he/she could still be wearing separate top & bottom undergarments.
As such, I just don't really see an undergarment that doubles as a "pressure suit" as really be all that practical.
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A zipper in the front and a flap at the back and you're good to go.
Hans
(Do I really need to add a '
'?)Hi,
Because of the complexity of the stuff I've seen on the internet (as shown in some of the images I posted previously, with the suit having multiple layers to protect against wear, to provide support as well as cooling etc, I'm not convinced that a simple zipper or flap would really be all that practical (as well as the fact that some items that I've seen on the internet actually appear to have "rigid" sections in way of the lower torso/upper leg areas.
Overall, though I don't have any real issues with a one-piece (or mostly one-piece suit, with separate boots & gloves) as an external garment, and I could easily see some sort of light weight suit being donned over a crew member's regular uniform/clothing during action stations, similar to how on modern ships crewmembers will don "anti-flash" gear when at action stations, etc.
Example of modern anti-flash gear (from Wikipedia)
Because of the complexity of the stuff I've seen on the internet (as shown in some of the images I posted previously, with the suit having multiple layers to protect against wear, to provide support as well as cooling etc, I'm not convinced that a simple zipper or flap would really be all that practical (as well as the fact that some items that I've seen on the internet actually appear to have "rigid" sections in way of the lower torso/upper leg areas.
Overall, though I don't have any real issues with a one-piece (or mostly one-piece suit, with separate boots & gloves) as an external garment, and I could easily see some sort of light weight suit being donned over a crew member's regular uniform/clothing during action stations, similar to how on modern ships crewmembers will don "anti-flash" gear when at action stations, etc.
Example of modern anti-flash gear (from Wikipedia)
Of course not. I started the vacc suit suggestion downstream and never suggested that for good reason. The vacc suit takes the place of outer clothing, like the submariners jump suit. Gloves in pocket and flexible bubble helmet rolled back into collar. During real space travel in potentially hostile areas.
Hi,
My comments about undergarments were more along the lines of being in response to the suggestions of Sir Brad and Reban and the like where it appears that there may be a suggestion of using undergarments as a form of pressure suit (if I am understanding their posts correctly).
My comments about undergarments were more along the lines of being in response to the suggestions of Sir Brad and Reban and the like where it appears that there may be a suggestion of using undergarments as a form of pressure suit (if I am understanding their posts correctly).
My original post on undergarments were not meant to represent a pressure suit or skintight vacc suit.
My ship skinnies are worn as a base layer with all forms of ship-board wear to protect against skin and soft tissue damage in the event of decompression, and to act as a hygiene slip and temperature regulation garment when worn with a skinsuit.
My preference is for a "shirtsleeves" environment on board and the donning of Vacc suits only when the situation warrants it.
My ship skinnies are worn as a base layer with all forms of ship-board wear to protect against skin and soft tissue damage in the event of decompression, and to act as a hygiene slip and temperature regulation garment when worn with a skinsuit.
My preference is for a "shirtsleeves" environment on board and the donning of Vacc suits only when the situation warrants it.
My guess would be around TL 14.
At TL 14 an ordinary vacc suit masses 4kg. Based on the above description, my guess is that the 4kg is the for the initial air supply (in some form like a cannister) to inflate the sealed suit and associated recycling equipment. I see it that way as "ordinary clothing" in itself if it were something that could be sealed without additional air may not have much volume available.
Following the idea of form and function, I see uniforms as a tool.
Military uniforms I think need to perform the following functions providing balance between these factors:
Protect the user from work environment
Permit work functions unimpeded
Permit identification of individual's status (ranks and medals) and function within the organization
Follow cultural/societies mores and traditions, especially previous military culture and tradition.
True all uniforms may do this 100% in all areas. For example the modern armor plating in US combat uniforms may impede work function (shooting, fast movement) due to mass, but increase "protect user from the work environment" as armor. Trade-offs.
A question on all mores and traditions: How much equality is there between officers and enlisted in social interaction? How much equality is there between the Navy and nobility/civilian ships/other groups?
Military uniforms I think need to perform the following functions providing balance between these factors:
Protect the user from work environment
Permit work functions unimpeded
Permit identification of individual's status (ranks and medals) and function within the organization
Follow cultural/societies mores and traditions, especially previous military culture and tradition.
True all uniforms may do this 100% in all areas. For example the modern armor plating in US combat uniforms may impede work function (shooting, fast movement) due to mass, but increase "protect user from the work environment" as armor. Trade-offs.
A question on all mores and traditions: How much equality is there between officers and enlisted in social interaction? How much equality is there between the Navy and nobility/civilian ships/other groups?
Nightwind1
SOC-12
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
depends on a LOT of things, like civilian norms, the mutual respect both sides have for each other, and the armys own internal culture.
some places, times and units, you see your officers on parade, on exercise and in battle, and no other times. they leave the low level management of the unit to the NCOs, and sit in their offices and issue order via proxy. They know the name on your name tag, but wouldn't know if you had swapped tags with the man stood next to you. They go to an officers only club and don't mix with the enlisted men any more than they physically have too.
in other places, times and units, the officers are, for all intents, "one of the boys" who just happens to be paid more. they are always around, giving direction or getting the way. they know you, your family, where you are form, what your hobbies are and you know the same about them.
most units are in the middle. I know my officers first name, and he knows mine, but when in work hes "sir" and I am "private". when he comes down the troop bar he is welcome, but whenever you are talking to him, you know that no matter how friendly he is now, he is still your boss and you need to be just a bit careful what you say around him.
as for officers vs civvies, that really depends on what officer and what civvies but essentially, "normal" social norms apply.
