Imperial warrants per year

[The Oz]

Buty what if the normal chains of command are inadequate to get the job done? Take one of the examples from Nobles, the Special Investigator from the MoJ who has just traced the location of a pirate lair. The local MoJ office does not have access to warships, so he seeks out the nearest IN warship.

"Lieutenant, I have reasons to believe that there's a pirate lair in the next star system and that it will soon be abandoned. Please take me there and help me destroy those nasty pirates."

"I'm sorry, but I have orders to deliver this load of self-sealing stembolts to the base in that other system. Please jump to the duchy capital and submit your request to the Fleet Admiral. I'm sure the pirates haven't taken the precaution of placing a spy at Fleet HQ to warn them, and I'm sure that a delay of a month or two won't give them the opportunity to escape."​

At this point, it would really be useful if the MoJ agent can whip out a warrant and tell the lieutenant that his orders have been changed.

Hans

I think GT:Nobles messed up on this example, at least. Such a mission where an investigator is looking for pirates would have some contingency plans for the investigator actually =finding= the pirates and needing to do something about it. Surely the MoJ and IN would have coordinated to give the investigator operational control of some naval force sufficient for the mission; the MoJ shouldn't have to go begging random patrols for help. If it does, the investigation was badly organized.

 

[rancke]

I think GT:Nobles messed up on this example, at least. Such a mission where an investigator is looking for pirates would have some contingency plans for the investigator actually =finding= the pirates and needing to do something about it.

The contingency plan is to give him an Imperial Warrant. Assuming that he is competent and trustworthy (that, IMO, is a real bottleneck, maybe bigger than Strephon's time -- finding such people who're not needed for other positions), what do you see as the objection to giving him one?

Surely the MoJ and IN would have coordinated to give the investigator operational control of some naval force sufficient for the mission; the MoJ shouldn't have to go begging random patrols for help. If it does, the investigation was badly organized.

Who shall watch the watchmen? I'm sure there are MoJ investigations where the the MoJ and the Imperial Navy coordinates. Many of them, on various levels. I'm also positive that such investigations are more bogged down in bureaucracy and turf war and at greater risk of being ruined by incompetence or villany.


Hans

 

[The Oz]

I am reconsidering the idea of Imperial Warrants from the basics:

• Who can you order to do something?
• What can you order them to do?
• What consequences do you/they face for giving/obeying those orders?
• How long does this authority last?

The first item has one obvious limitation: Astrography. No one not subject to Imperial law has to obey a Warrant. Outside the Imperium the authority of a Warrant would be limited to the prestige of the Imperium, except with Imperial subjects living outside Imperial boundaries. While Imperial allies would listen very carefully to the holder of a Warrant, they would not be =bound by law= to obey the holder. Warrants issued by lower-level nobles inside the Imperium are presumably astrographically limited to their legal boundaries.

Inside the Imperium the boundary of who has to obey the Warrant depends on the concept of "limited" Warrants. By definition, an "unlimited" Warrant means everyone has to obey it (except the authority issuing it). If Warrants are limited by mission then presumably you can refuse to obey a Warrant if you feel you can prove (at your later trial) that the order you disobeyed was not related to the mission of the Warrant. But since, as Hans pointed out, the whole idea of a Warrant is to override the established chain of command when needed it seems illogical that anyone could use their own judgment to disobey a Warrant. This seems a good argument =against= "limited by mission" Warrants: if anyone can decide what the mission is and what needs to be done to complete it, the Warrant doesn't override the normal chain of command.

The issues of what you can order done and the consequences of obeying such orders are tied together, and can be summed up by the question, "Can you use a Warrant to order someone to do something against Imperial Law?" This has been answered in canon with the example of Norris retrieving his Warrant from Algine; he couldn't go there or order others to go there without the Warrant, but with the Warrant anything he ordered done was protected (even retroactively). I don't completely accept this example but suspect this was the classic trope of "nothing succeeding like success." If Norris had not won the 5th Frontier War he probably would have been prosecuted for illegal seizure of the Warrant and misuse of its authority. Since he won, his violation of the Algine Interdict was overlooked. I imagine this is how it would work for any Warrant: you can order anything you want, and those who obey your orders are protected, but =you= are exposed, and only success will cover you. Fail to achieve the mission of your Warrant, and you better not have done anything all that terrible.

As far as limits in time I can only see two practical limits: an actual "expiration date" beyond which the Warrant is useless, and "limited by revocation" where the Warrant is valid until the issuing authority says otherwise. I don't really think that "expiration date" Warrants would be very useful given the long time delays built into the Traveller universe; there's just no way an issuing authority could predict how long it would take to solve a problem. Maybe this could be done by giving a much longer "expiration date" than is likely to be needed, say 5 years for a Warrant issued by a Sector Duke for a problem expected to take only 8 months to solve, but then why not just issue a "limited by revocation" Warrant and send the revocation when needed? And a Warrant "limited by mission" runs into the problem of just who decides the mission is done? If the holder of the "limited by mission" Warrant gets to decide when the mission is over, then what is the difference between that kind of Warrant and an "unlimited" Warrant?

 

[The Oz]

The contingency plan is to give him an Imperial Warrant. Assuming that he is competent and trustworthy (that, IMO, is a real bottleneck, maybe bigger than Strephon's time -- finding such people who're not needed for other positions), what do you see as the objection to giving him one?

Hans

My basic objection is that he doesn't =need= it; using an Imperial Warrant to hunt some pirates is like using a shotgun to kill termites. Now, if the problem is that piracy is flourishing in a sector because of corruption, incompetence, and dereliction of duty by most of the sector authorities =then= an Imperial Warrant might be needed to clean up the mess.

I suspect that we have a fundamental difference of concept of just what an Imperial Warrant is: I go with the idea that a Warrant basically turns the bearer into an avatar of the Emperor, and whatever the bearer orders must be done. Since I see this power as virtually unlimited it would =have= to be restricted to only the most trusted people and reserved for the =most= critical situations, lest you create chaos in the Imperium (not to mention rival Emperors). That is how I read the text from Library Data: the bearer of a Warrant can order whatever they want, and you have to do it.

Now there are undoubtedly less-powerful Imperial Edicts that can be used to give wide-ranging authority to agents without granting them the unlimited authority of a true Imperial Warrant. Something like that, compelling all Imperial subjects to obey any legal order given by the bearer, is more likely to be the kind of authority granted to the MoJ agent in your example.

 

[rancke]

My basic objection is that he doesn't =need= it; using an Imperial Warrant to hunt some pirates is like using a shotgun to kill termites.

He needs something. As I pointed out above, his orders are illegal without a warrant. Presumably dukes hand out their own warrants. To people about whose competence and loyalties Strephon can not be sure. If Strephon, or even "just" the Minister of Justice, wants to send out a few personal agents, they'll need warrants too, and the warrants he hands out happens to be Imperial warrants (Though obviously not unlimited ones).

Now, if the problem is that piracy is flourishing in a sector because of corruption, incompetence, and dereliction of duty by most of the sector authorities =then= an Imperial Warrant might be needed to clean up the mess.

The pirate-busting is just one example. Someone like that would be looking for all sorts of other problems.

I suspect that we have a fundamental difference of concept of just what an Imperial Warrant is: I go with the idea that a Warrant basically turns the bearer into an avatar of the Emperor, and whatever the bearer orders must be done.

That's what the original appearance, in TK implied. TK also implied that such power was handed out with warrants that were worded so that anyone who got his hands on one could use it.

LDAM revised that. It just says that it is used to bypass the bureaucracy. Granted, the examples it mentions are all high-powered, but that doen't prove anything.

Since I see this power as virtually unlimited it would =have= to be restricted to only the most trusted people and reserved for the =most= critical situations, lest you create chaos in the Imperium (not to mention rival Emperors).

You're arguing in circles. Well, maybe not quite, but at least in spirals . I agree that IF the power is unlimited, then Strephon would have to trust anyone he hands one to a lot. But if some warrants are limited, that no longer applies.

That is how I read the text from Library Data: the bearer of a Warrant can order whatever they want, and you have to do it.

That's how I read that particular example, too. The bearer, no matter who he is or how he got hold of the warrant can order whatever he wants, and you have to do it. Riiiiight. Which is why I don't think that example is valid.

Now there are undoubtedly less-powerful Imperial Edicts that can be used to give wide-ranging authority to agents without granting them the unlimited authority of a true Imperial Warrant. Something like that, compelling all Imperial subjects to obey any legal order given by the bearer, is more likely to be the kind of authority granted to the MoJ agent in your example.

Why would the Emperor need a separate edict to let him write limited warrants? All he has to do is write one under Imperial Edict 97 that is limited in whatever way he wants.


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

Just another little problem (as if there weren't enough):

Communications in any TU being what they are, when somebody waves a warrant under your nose and orders you to do something, how do you know the warrant is real?

What safeguards and confirmations would be available, and how?

 

[aramis]

Why would the Emperor need a separate edict to let him write limited warrants? All he has to do is write one under Imperial Edict 97 that is limited in whatever way he wants.


Hans

Probably because the more limited warrants were created in an earlier edict than #97....probably somewhere between #1 and #20.

 

[aramis]

Just another little problem (as if there weren't enough):

Communications in any TU being what they are, when somebody waves a warrant under your nose and orders you to do something, how do you know the warrant is real?

What safeguards and confirmations would be available, and how?

It's written on imperial stationary. It probably has an electronic verification as well. It probably contains a few dozen different anti-spoofing passive technologies.

If you are a government agency, you punch in the warrant number, the issue date, and a checksum, and see if they match up, and also check to see if that warrant was ordered canceled. (That takes time, but it's going to go out at X-Boat to all points.)

If not, you call the local starport authority, and give them the same information.

If it's not a bearer instrument*, the checksum includes their name and ID number, too.

* I had a thought; the bearer document for a 97 may still not be a multi-user; it just avoids using the persons name on the face, but the data chip includes biometric data, so it doesn't reveal their identity, just that they are in fact the correct bearer.

 

[Garyius2003]

I was trying to say that I think these warrants go out when the Emperor isn't 100% sure he can trust the chain of command and the issue is big or could harm his rep.

Personally, I'm not sure about either of these, but my ATU is a little different.

The first one could be covered by regular orders passed to the Admiral via the Grand Admiral following the regular Chiefs of Staff meeting chaired by the Emperor. Any possibility of a secret base would be a cause for naval concern and would be investigated as a matter of course. Perhaps it's an OTU thing, but in MTU an admiral would have the power to investigate such matters anyway, and the navy operates independently from nobles and politicians.

The second one might require a warrant of some form, but it's far more likely to be issued by the local Duke, as it would be his responsibility to police matters in his own backyard. It would only come to higher notice if the duke was either clueless or in cahoots with the slavers. (As I said, incompetent or untrustworthy).

Even so, I think somewhere between one a week and one a day might issue from the Emperor's hand.

 

[Icosahedron]

I was trying to say that I think these warrants go out when the Emperor isn't 100% sure he can trust the chain of command and the issue is big or could harm his rep.

Then we agree.
The most common use for a warrant would be for the Emperor to check up on/replace the regular structure, because if the regular structure is working properly it should handle everything else.