Imperiallines' Calibration Points

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by rancke:
I agree completely. What is a part of canon (at least I think it is) is that Sirius was a choke point and that 3-parsec gaps were a problem. Which doesn't make sense if jumps into deep space are not a huge problem. That is the 'fact' that Jon tried to come up with an explanation for, not the jump lines.

Hans,

I agree. The Sirius Gap was the 'problem' and Imperium's jump lines supposedly pointed a way to a solution. As is usual in these matters, the solution created more problems than it fixed.

Look at the ramifications of the GT:IW solution when 'fitted' to the rest of canon.

The Vilani had to explore and conquer the entire area of the Ziru Sirka plus settle all those 1st Imperium colonies 'Behind the Claw'. In order to get where they did when they did, the Vilani either had to find brown dwarves precisely where they repeatedly needed them to be OR make 'massless' DSJs. Remember, the Vilani explored most of the future Ziru Sirka using jump1. It was only after jump2 was developed that the Consolidation Wars began.

Jon has said it was the latter. The Vilani made massless DSJs and then for some reason chose not to do so anymore, even though jump2 and the strategic advantage it brings was their hole card. (I think the Vilani = Stupid is one trope we all try to avoid, right?)

We also shouldn't forget all the minor races, human or not, who recieved jump1 from the Vilani. Misuse of the technology, among others, was the reason behind the Cosolidation Wars and the Ziru Sirka. Like the Vilani, these minor races too were making DSJs. The dissidents of Dingir couldn't have settled that world without making DSJs. The Vegans couldn't have settled the few worlds they did without DSJs. The Leoskalth's Sky Raiders generation ship makes DSJs. Everyone was making DSJs.

All the other major races early explorations make no mention of any difficulties regarding rift crossings either. Using low number drives, the Zhos explore pretty uniformly expanding roughly equally in all directions. The Vargr with jump1 expand around the Windhorn, forced by stellar density, just as the Vilani were, to use massless DSJs. The Hivers were able to explore a 10 parsec radius around Guaran with their jump1 'meltdown' drive. Their drives may melt but there's apparently no problem with DSJs.

So, everyone can perform DSJs as soon as they develop or are given jump drives except for the Terrans. The non-standard nature of the first Terran jump drive can't be an excuse. First, the Hivers are making DSJs with a non-standard jump drive of their own and, second, after contact the Terrans quickly adopt the standard jump1 drive which everyone else is using to make DSJs.

Does any of that sound plausible to you?

The Sirius Gap choke point could have been easily explained by saying DSJ techniques of the time had limited military utility. We look at Sirius and wonder why neither side attacked across the three parsec gap, why the Ziru Sirka didn't simply make two jumps and slag Earth, why they kept attacking via Nusku. The question is a military one so the solution should be a military one too.

What sort of things would limit the military utility of DSJs? Among many suggestions it could be accuracy in space, accuracy in time, or both. What if squadron synchronization can't be performed in conjunction with a DSJ? That your fleet arrives scattered across 33.6 hours? What if the 3000km/parsec physical accuracy increases by an order of magnitude? Or several orders of magnitude? What if both occur?

By making DSJs of the time of limited utility for groups of ships you limit the military utility of DSJs. Single ships like raiders, scouts, and explorers can still make DSJs to their hearts' content. It's only the battlefleets that try to avoid them. Later in history, the maths improve and the handicaps associated with DSJs go away.

Is it a subtle difference? Yes. Does it do far less violence to canon? Definitely.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by rancke:
I agree completely. What is a part of canon (at least I think it is) is that Sirius was a choke point and that 3-parsec gaps were a problem. Which doesn't make sense if jumps into deep space are not a huge problem. That is the 'fact' that Jon tried to come up with an explanation for, not the jump lines.

Hans,

I agree. The Sirius Gap was the 'problem' and Imperium's jump lines supposedly pointed a way to a solution. As is usual in these matters, the solution created more problems than it fixed.

Look at the ramifications of the GT:IW solution when 'fitted' to the rest of canon.

The Vilani had to explore and conquer the entire area of the Ziru Sirka plus settle all those 1st Imperium colonies 'Behind the Claw'. In order to get where they did when they did, the Vilani either had to find brown dwarves precisely where they repeatedly needed them to be OR make 'massless' DSJs. Remember, the Vilani explored most of the future Ziru Sirka using jump1. It was only after jump2 was developed that the Consolidation Wars began.

Jon has said it was the latter. The Vilani made massless DSJs and then for some reason chose not to do so anymore, even though jump2 and the strategic advantage it brings was their hole card. (I think the Vilani = Stupid is one trope we all try to avoid, right?)

We also shouldn't forget all the minor races, human or not, who recieved jump1 from the Vilani. Misuse of the technology, among others, was the reason behind the Cosolidation Wars and the Ziru Sirka. Like the Vilani, these minor races too were making DSJs. The dissidents of Dingir couldn't have settled that world without making DSJs. The Vegans couldn't have settled the few worlds they did without DSJs. The Leoskalth's Sky Raiders generation ship makes DSJs. Everyone was making DSJs.

All the other major races early explorations make no mention of any difficulties regarding rift crossings either. Using low number drives, the Zhos explore pretty uniformly expanding roughly equally in all directions. The Vargr with jump1 expand around the Windhorn, forced by stellar density, just as the Vilani were, to use massless DSJs. The Hivers were able to explore a 10 parsec radius around Guaran with their jump1 'meltdown' drive. Their drives may melt but there's apparently no problem with DSJs.

So, everyone can perform DSJs as soon as they develop or are given jump drives except for the Terrans. The non-standard nature of the first Terran jump drive can't be an excuse. First, the Hivers are making DSJs with a non-standard jump drive of their own and, second, after contact the Terrans quickly adopt the standard jump1 drive which everyone else is using to make DSJs.

Does any of that sound plausible to you?

The Sirius Gap choke point could have been easily explained by saying DSJ techniques of the time had limited military utility. We look at Sirius and wonder why neither side attacked across the three parsec gap, why the Ziru Sirka didn't simply make two jumps and slag Earth, why they kept attacking via Nusku. The question is a military one so the solution should be a military one too.

What sort of things would limit the military utility of DSJs? Among many suggestions it could be accuracy in space, accuracy in time, or both. What if squadron synchronization can't be performed in conjunction with a DSJ? That your fleet arrives scattered across 33.6 hours? What if the 3000km/parsec physical accuracy increases by an order of magnitude? Or several orders of magnitude? What if both occur?

By making DSJs of the time of limited utility for groups of ships you limit the military utility of DSJs. Single ships like raiders, scouts, and explorers can still make DSJs to their hearts' content. It's only the battlefleets that try to avoid them. Later in history, the maths improve and the handicaps associated with DSJs go away.

Is it a subtle difference? Yes. Does it do far less violence to canon? Definitely.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
boomslang, can you point to anything in particular that implies the time:distance ratio is linear? I have usually assumed a non-linear relationship because it's non-N-space physics.
(Yeah, I see you mean how far the planet moves in that time v. where you expected it to be. But, my question still stands.)

(Oh, and robject: It's not about the physics, which I always try to respect; it's about logical consistency, which is even more important.)

All Jumps, regardless of number, take "about a week" and start and end in N-space, therefore the linear formula

v = d/t

applies with regard to when and where one starts and stops in N-space. Time cannot be measured without motion (cf. Zeno, Hiesenberg, and that lot).

If Jump requires the proverbial "precise calculation" to avoid Misjump (and even get to the correct destination), the 33.6-hour margin of error introduces potentially huge variables. The energy state of the local gravitational system can change significantly in a day and a half, even to the point of creating "Jump masking" issues.

Given that Jump without accurate calculation is not permitted, it is inconsistent for imprecise calculations to be a prerequisite. If any sloppy old number-crunching will do, Navigators might just as well plot via slide rule and Jump seat-of-the-pants (just so long as fuel, altitude, and maintenance requirements are all met). Simply point and go on a "ballpark estimate"...

Which is not consistent with normal navigational practice in the OTU, to say the least...

(Oddly enough, I've been kicking around just such a model IMTU: non-computerized short-hop FTL travel, mostly as an historical footnote and a nod to the new Galactica series... but that's neither here nor there...)

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
boomslang, can you point to anything in particular that implies the time:distance ratio is linear? I have usually assumed a non-linear relationship because it's non-N-space physics.
(Yeah, I see you mean how far the planet moves in that time v. where you expected it to be. But, my question still stands.)

(Oh, and robject: It's not about the physics, which I always try to respect; it's about logical consistency, which is even more important.)

All Jumps, regardless of number, take "about a week" and start and end in N-space, therefore the linear formula

v = d/t

applies with regard to when and where one starts and stops in N-space. Time cannot be measured without motion (cf. Zeno, Hiesenberg, and that lot).

If Jump requires the proverbial "precise calculation" to avoid Misjump (and even get to the correct destination), the 33.6-hour margin of error introduces potentially huge variables. The energy state of the local gravitational system can change significantly in a day and a half, even to the point of creating "Jump masking" issues.

Given that Jump without accurate calculation is not permitted, it is inconsistent for imprecise calculations to be a prerequisite. If any sloppy old number-crunching will do, Navigators might just as well plot via slide rule and Jump seat-of-the-pants (just so long as fuel, altitude, and maintenance requirements are all met). Simply point and go on a "ballpark estimate"...

Which is not consistent with normal navigational practice in the OTU, to say the least...

(Oddly enough, I've been kicking around just such a model IMTU: non-computerized short-hop FTL travel, mostly as an historical footnote and a nod to the new Galactica series... but that's neither here nor there...)

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by thrash:
This is the flaw in your argument, Bill. The Vilani only had to find one brown dwarf or viable DSJ solution for each gap they needed to cross.

Chris,

How many gaps and each with a brown dwarf?

How many gaps for the Zhodani, each with a brown dwarf? How many for the Vargr? The Hivers? The K'Kree? The Aslan? All the minor races using jump1 before the Consolidation Wars? How many gaps is that? And how many brown dwarves were there right where they were needed?

They're available precisely where they're needed from the spinward side of the Consulate to the trailing side of the 2000 Worlds. They're available from the coreward side of the Vargr Extents to the rimward edge of the Aslan client states. They're available down the Core Route which the Zhos began in -4000 PI when they had jump2. They're exactly everywhere they're needed across Chratered Space BUT there isn't one single brown dwarf between Siruis and Sol? Will wonders never cease... Talk about special pleading!

Let's not forget the follow-up question GT:IW's solution poses: "When did the other Major Races discover the secret of massless deep space jumps?"

We've got the dates for all their jump drive discoveries after all, so when did they develop the maths and/or techniques for massless DSJs? The ability the Vilani somehow forgot or suppressed, the ability the Terrans somehow don't develop for 200 years althugh they do develop jump3. It's an important question as DSJs are an important and regular part of interstellar travel. There are four rather large empires using DSJs after all. Even clapped-out subsidized merchants use them. So when was this vitally important technique finally developed?

Or did we just make a mistake instead?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by thrash:
This is the flaw in your argument, Bill. The Vilani only had to find one brown dwarf or viable DSJ solution for each gap they needed to cross.

Chris,

How many gaps and each with a brown dwarf?

How many gaps for the Zhodani, each with a brown dwarf? How many for the Vargr? The Hivers? The K'Kree? The Aslan? All the minor races using jump1 before the Consolidation Wars? How many gaps is that? And how many brown dwarves were there right where they were needed?

They're available precisely where they're needed from the spinward side of the Consulate to the trailing side of the 2000 Worlds. They're available from the coreward side of the Vargr Extents to the rimward edge of the Aslan client states. They're available down the Core Route which the Zhos began in -4000 PI when they had jump2. They're exactly everywhere they're needed across Chratered Space BUT there isn't one single brown dwarf between Siruis and Sol? Will wonders never cease... Talk about special pleading!

Let's not forget the follow-up question GT:IW's solution poses: "When did the other Major Races discover the secret of massless deep space jumps?"

We've got the dates for all their jump drive discoveries after all, so when did they develop the maths and/or techniques for massless DSJs? The ability the Vilani somehow forgot or suppressed, the ability the Terrans somehow don't develop for 200 years althugh they do develop jump3. It's an important question as DSJs are an important and regular part of interstellar travel. There are four rather large empires using DSJs after all. Even clapped-out subsidized merchants use them. So when was this vitally important technique finally developed?

Or did we just make a mistake instead?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Plankowner]

Back to Jump Tapes/Cassettes:

I figure part of the reason for the self-destruct feature is accuracy and time. If a Jump is accurate to 3000km, then a tape will probably only be valid for a couple of days at most. After that time, the chaotic movement of the planet would make the tape not only useless, but probably dangerous.

A planet moves around with it's moons (if any), it moves around it's star. The star moves around stellar companions (if any). The whole star system moves around the galaxy, the galaxy moves with the Local Group. The Universe is expanding. All of these things together probably add up to a couple dozen kilometers per second of movement.

Assuming 20 km/sec total movement for the target world, it would take that world only 150 seconds to move 3000 km (that 2.5 minutes). Given that all this movement is somewhat chaotic, it wouldn't take long for a Jump Tape/Cassette to get pretty out of date. Sure, the motions can all be accounted for (that's why we pay Navigators/Astrogators so much money), a tape will be more rigid in what it can account for, so it will loose it's accuracy pretty fast.

The one-time use of the Jump Tape is for safety.

Money comes in to it I'm sure, but safety first!

 

[Plankowner]

Back to Jump Tapes/Cassettes:

I figure part of the reason for the self-destruct feature is accuracy and time. If a Jump is accurate to 3000km, then a tape will probably only be valid for a couple of days at most. After that time, the chaotic movement of the planet would make the tape not only useless, but probably dangerous.

A planet moves around with it's moons (if any), it moves around it's star. The star moves around stellar companions (if any). The whole star system moves around the galaxy, the galaxy moves with the Local Group. The Universe is expanding. All of these things together probably add up to a couple dozen kilometers per second of movement.

Assuming 20 km/sec total movement for the target world, it would take that world only 150 seconds to move 3000 km (that 2.5 minutes). Given that all this movement is somewhat chaotic, it wouldn't take long for a Jump Tape/Cassette to get pretty out of date. Sure, the motions can all be accounted for (that's why we pay Navigators/Astrogators so much money), a tape will be more rigid in what it can account for, so it will loose it's accuracy pretty fast.

The one-time use of the Jump Tape is for safety.

Money comes in to it I'm sure, but safety first!

 

[jfetters]

Possibly stupid (and repeated) question here, but aren't "Tapes" only necessary when a navigator is not on board?

 

[jfetters]

Possibly stupid (and repeated) question here, but aren't "Tapes" only necessary when a navigator is not on board?

 

[Plankowner]

Correct.

They are available on well-travelled routes and their use does not require a navigator. Heaven help you if you mis-jump though without one...

 

[Plankowner]

Correct.

They are available on well-travelled routes and their use does not require a navigator. Heaven help you if you mis-jump though without one...

 

[mike wightman]

They are needed if you don't have a generate program.

You also need the navigation and jump programs.

And they are called cassettes

 

[mike wightman]

They are needed if you don't have a generate program.

You also need the navigation and jump programs.

And they are called cassettes

 

[Plankowner]

Sigg, get into the 58th Century man, we call them Discs now!

Actually, I couldn't remember what they were called, so I used the tape/cassette to stay out of the line of fire.

 

[Plankowner]

Sigg, get into the 58th Century man, we call them Discs now!

Actually, I couldn't remember what they were called, so I used the tape/cassette to stay out of the line of fire.