Imperium = no expansion?

[robject]

At first glance, it seems that the 3rd Imperium's expansion slows down - nay, stops - after 600 years.

But, maybe that's my ingrained Manifest Destiny talking.

Suppose it's some other way.

For example, the Ziru Sirka carefully, deliberately planted colonies on key worlds, and took over administration of worlds with existing populations (maybe the same as "key worlds"?).

Those "key worlds" are the worlds with populations in the billions. "Administrated worlds" are the subjugated peoples, some of which are also perhaps key worlds.

Thus every world with populations lower than X are home-baked colonies, startups, corporate interests, temporary, recent, exiles, yet to be established, rootless, what-have-you. Maybe worlds which the Ziru Sirka had started on a "3,000 year plan" for terraforming or somesuch.


Implications are that the 2nd and 3rd Imperia didn't really "grow" the boundaries of human space, much, per se. They largely just assimilated what was already out there. And the mandate was always to grab the high-population worlds first -- a common theme.

Thoughts?

 

[mike wightman]

Well by the 600s the Imperium is pretty much hemmed in - although technically it could expand through Soli space, which ceases to be an option after the Rim war.

The 2nd Imperium didn't grow so much as just take over what was already there and add a few terran worlds to the mix.

The 1st Imperium was the only truly expansionist Imperium, but the method chosen and low jump number limited it to glacial growth.

There's always the possibility of developing the worlds within the Imperium of course, terraforming and/or seeding with genetically modified humans.

 

[Tysis]

As Mike pointed out the borders met other empires. Leaders may have been less expansionistic.

There is also a resource issue; too much effort was required to support, protect, and develop the existing works so acquiring additional system just was not an option.

 

[Maladominus]

The "hemmed in" by neighboring interstellar empires (Zhodani to the Northwest, Solomani to the South, Vargr to the North, etc etc) is the most obvious reason.

However, it is plausible that the 3I could expand even further, even during Strephon's reign. How so?

Aggressively pursue the peaceful annexation of the NUMEROUS (tiny) Human Client States, especially those whom are unaligned or in peril of being absorbed into hostile empires (e.g. in danger of being annexed by Two Thousand Worlds). After all, the 3I does consider itself to be the legitimate inheritor of 2 previous human-based hegemonies (the First and Second Imperiums). So it would make sense that "hawkish" and expansionist factions in Capital could theoretically pursue some kind of Humaniti Irridentist policy.

This is all in theory, of course. In practicality, the 3I were it to pursue "far reach" territories beyond its natural borders, would find it impossible to defend them. And the profits of trade would be diluted, since it would consume too much time, cost, operating expenses, and fuel expenses to conduct trade with such beyond-border colonies. It's just not worth it. Might as well leave them to fend for themselves and let them fall prey to large militant Vargr states, or let them be hypnotized and influenced and be 'peacefully' integrated by the Hivers.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Ral Ranta, a government on the rimward sphere of influence of the Imperium (as presented in Challenge 39) would be an example of a type of expansion. Ral Ranta used to be a pretty big independent, but Imperial economic began to whittle it down some.

There are places where the Imperium could certainly expand on its Frontiers, but eventually once the small fry are "absorbed", conflict would be inevitable with one or more of the other governments.

The question would also be, would it need to expand? Wouldn't the eventual development of the claimed systems occupy incredible amounts of resources and focus?

An aggressively expansionist Imperium would be a great basis for an ATU game for sure. It would be like Warhammer 40k on steroids, and certainly a tactician's dream to be sure. If anyone starts one, I'm in!

 

[sfchbryan]

Why would they even need to expand? The 3I isn't an empire like the Roman Empire or the British Empire. The 3I is more like the East India company. It is a corporation that has it's own military and currency.

In addition, look at how many worlds have not been economically exploited just within the current boundaries. The 3I could spend 1,000 years just building up what is already within their borders.

 

[robject]

Why would they even need to expand? The 3I isn't an empire like the Roman Empire or the British Empire. The 3I is more like the East India company. It is a corporation that has it's own military and currency.

In addition, look at how may worlds have not been economically exploited just within the current boundaries. The 3I could spend 1,000 years just building up what is already within their borders.

Exactly my thoughts.

 

[Maladominus]

Unless the frontiers of expansion are regions where there are lots and lots of planets that are chock full of irridium .... or gold-pressed latinum. Or maybe lush garden worlds with billions of gorgeous naked (human) babes. Or a cluster of worlds with 'must-have' Ancients ruin sites with rumors of artifacts to be found.

Yeah. There has to be some compelling reasons why the 3I would aggressively go for a land grab.

Just grabbing territory for the sake of territory is not enough. Kinda like Russia.... lots and lots of land. Half of it is worthless and desolate and not worth occupying.

 

[kafka47]

Good comparison with Russia. I like that. It was not so much that Third Imperium had reached stellar limits but the ethos behind the expansion had largely gone from the mature Imperium. It could expand more by accretion rather than gobbling up empty space. And, the accretion method was problematic due to Interstellar polities that surrounded it, as they had done exactly the same thing but in a much earlier period of time and were stable with their dominant major race. So, yes, the Imperium could nibble away in efforts like the Frontier Wars but only get into a stalemate.

 

[Icosahedron]

Greed will generally win out over temperance, however, greed is not the only motivation for expansion - fear and race-hate make a contribution.

'Do unto others before they do unto you', might encourage the Imperium to get rid of that 'insidious political disease' to Rimward, or those 'loathsome manipulators', or those 'unholy mind-flayers'. They might decide to 'domesticate' the 'animal rabble' before the 'cats, dogs and horses' domesticate us, and last but by no means least, it's not exactly without precedent that expansion serves as a distraction from internal political and economic problems. Personally, I find a stable Imperial border requires more suspension of disbelief than the OTU's technology. Particularly if you compare it with a corporation - show me a corporation that doesn't want to expand.

 

[DaveChase]

Don't forget that expansion could also be used to increase influence

Look at the reasons that the Mountain man/beaver fur trade happened
On the individual view, to get away, be independent, go where no white man had been before.
On the political view, to get the country to expand through ecomony because certain items would be desired by those who left 'civilization' (besides just the basics) and because business would follow the trappers to the wilderness

Look that the reasons for the gold rush
Same basics as the Mountain man but actually encouraged by both ecomony and everyday people

Look at the reasons why farmers traveled to the great wilderness
No upward movement (only a few), no new land to expand into (many), and the land was tired/used up (many)

Just a few real life reasons for expansion that could be modified slightly to make the 3I want to expand besides expansion is one why to convinve the general populace that the government is healthy

If we had a new frontier that the individualist could get to their would be a new rush in great numbers today.

Dave Chase

 

[Duke Pellinor]

...it's not exactly without precedent that expansion serves as a distraction from internal political and economic problems. ...

Geoffrey Blainey's "The Causes of War" has excellent counter arguments to this theory. Unfortunately I am about 6 hours drive from the nearest library copy that I know of. A nation beset by civil strife is more likely to lose a conflict and become more destabilised by entering one. Increases in national unity usually only occur where the level of civil strife is low.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

At first glance, it seems that the 3rd Imperium's expansion slows down - nay, stops - after 600 years.

It hasn't been for lack of trying. Although the Third Imperium has generally been dealing with political indigestion since its aggressive conquests of the 100-200's, it has pursued expansionist strategies since then ... with mixed results. The original Solomani Autonomous Region was arguably as much about projecting Imperial power out towards its only real frontier (rimward) as it was about defusing the Vilani-Solomani racial crisis. We know how well that turned out for them.

Astrography also plays as much a role in the curtailment of Imperial ambitions as interstellar politics does. The Imperium could expand on a limited basis out rimward of the Spinward Marches, for instance; but the region is so sparse that unless there's some really cool nugget buried in there, it's pretty much not worth the effort for the Imperium to go there. The same can be said for Reaver's Deep, Glimmerdrift Reaches, Gateway, Crucis Margin, and large swathes of the Vargr Extents, as well.

The Mendan Main is probably the most inviting tract of Jump-1 and 2 routes that the Imperium could use for expansion (in fact, it played a critical role in the Ziru Sirka's initial coreward expansion). But the Mendan Main also runs right through the heart of the Julian Protectorate -- and again: we know how well that turned out for the Imperials.

Suppose it's some other way.

For example, the Ziru Sirka carefully, deliberately planted colonies on key worlds, and took over administration of worlds with existing populations (maybe the same as "key worlds"?).

Those "key worlds" are the worlds with populations in the billions. "Administrated worlds" are the subjugated peoples, some of which are also perhaps key worlds.

My analysis of "pre-imperial" TU history indicates so far that the settlement patterns of that era wound up creating a Ziru Sirka that was about 70%-80% pure Vilani worlds, and 20%-30% assimilated/subject systems. It actually looks like much less (about 55%-60%); but Vilani space (i.e. everything coreward of Massilia) is much denser than most non-Vilani regions.

Thus every world with populations lower than X are home-baked colonies, startups, corporate interests, temporary, recent, exiles, yet to be established, rootless, what-have-you. Maybe worlds which the Ziru Sirka had started on a "3,000 year plan" for terraforming or somesuch.

They probably also have a much higher Solomani racial makeup than the other worlds, at least coreward of Diaspora. Solomani seem much less averse to challenging conditions than the other human races are.

Implications are that the 2nd and 3rd Imperia didn't really "grow" the boundaries of human space, much, per se. They largely just assimilated what was already out there. And the mandate was always to grab the high-population worlds first -- a common theme.

The Rule of Man did manage to expand human space into several sectors that were rimward and rim-trailing of traditional Vilani space (Reaver's Deep, Magyar, Solomani Rim, Old Expanses, and the Gateway Quadrant) -- although it did this at the expense of nearly all the Imperial territories coreward of Vland. So it really was pretty much a wash for humaniti as a whole. Sorta like how Poland took a "jog to the left" after World War II.

The Third Imperium did at least promote the settlement of the Spinward Marches; but we all know the story there, so there's no real need to go into that in any detail.

 

[ThunderChilde]

I hesitate to point out that the Imperial Colonization Bureu is an active measures expansionistic by the method of accreation tool of the Imperium. We are all familiar with some of its activities in the Marches, I can only assume that its doing the same elsewhere.

 

[Plankowner]

If the Imperium was still in an Expansionist mode, why is District 268 not part of the Imperium? That is a strategic asset that would connec the 5-Sisters Subsector to the rest of the Imperium and do an end-run around the Sword Worlds.

They haven't even given it a name by 1105!

The 5-Sisters were explored and settled about 600 right? So what happened?

After the Arbellatra became Empress, the Imperium basically stopped expanding. Stagnation leads to Rebellion...

 

[DonM]

It's very possible that the early years of the 3I were similar to the Julian Protectorate -- expansion by trade and mercantile exchange. Remember that the Lentuli administration brought changes in, presumably lessening the mercantile nature of the early Imperium. At any rate, certainly the Pacification Campaigns ended that.

Perhaps the reason the Julian Protectorate follows the government pattern it does is a deliberate borrowing on what its members saw as a more "comfortable" government environment -- the mercantile nature of the Zhunastu-forged early Third Imperium, rather than it's evolution into an oversized Vilani bureaux (Lentuli's Quarantine Policy, and then as Emperor, his creation of the Domains, transform the 3I, but the Pacification Campaigns complete that transformation).

I hint at the significant change in direction for the 3I in the Timeline lecture notes; Cleon I builds this great mercantile empire, but in his final years his Chancellor brings that to a halt with the Quarantine Policy, and then when the Chancellor becomes Emperor himself, and after waiting until 10 years after his most vocal opponent in the Moot dies, he creates the Domains and begins the Pacification Campaigns. Which brings us to the Julian War. And the expansion towards the Solomani Rim isn't anything exciting.

Long before the Civil War, all the spirit behind the Imperium's expansion is long spent.

 

[tim_manley]

Thread from another forum... not advertising the forum; but a lot of folks are on both.

http://www.sfrpg.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=306&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Author: bigtim [ Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:02 pm ]
Post subject: concept of an empire

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A stellar empire with Jump FTL capability. This means that governmental control is quite delayed, giving great lee-way and power to capital ship captains, local lords, etc. It's very "18th Century" style. This much is quite obvious. It does introduce some conceptual issues that I'm curious how other folks that have run Traveller (OTU and MTU).

Having quite a long travel time means getting across the entire empire takes a freakishly long time.
http://www.travellermap.com/

We're talking 5 sectors (OTU) across core to rim, and about 4 across spin to trail. So for a message to get from Core to Regina means years (especially since Corridor and Reft are so sparse).

So how is money handled, law enforcement, command and control, the military....

When you have so much distance and time away from your central government, and communication travels only as fast as a ship, with J6 being the max how is it possible to have an empire the size of the Imperium?

Just thoughts.... it seems "too big" for the technology IMO....