Importance and Economic extensions

[dalthor]

I've been trying to figure out how I want trade to work IMTU. The Varan EConomic and Trade ORganization (VECTOR) determines trade policy in the sector I've generated (http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Mikhail_Sector) with regard to "corporate" trade routes. I just started working on "free" trade.

While digging into the importance and economic extensions (Ix and Ex) I found some things that bothered me...

== part 1, this is submitted to the Errata thread

On pg. 427, section E it states Importance may range from -2 to +4.

On pg. 435, using the table, it can range from -3 to +5 (or maybe +6 depending on how you interpret the N/S/W base modifier.)

You can get -1 for starport D, another -1 TL 8 or less, and -1 if pop is 6 or less, for a total of -3.

Starport A/B +1, TL A +1, up to another +2 between Ag/Hi/In/Ri; +1 if both N and S, or +1 if waystation for a possible +5.

Also, if you have Naval and waystation, is that supposed to be +2, since it is harder to get NW than NS? I feel that entry may be missing from the chart.

== part 2, the critical portion

For the economic extension, the discussion of resource units (RUs) on pg. 428 indicates that negative efficiency is so destructive as to make the economy a net drain - examples being welfare states, physical limitations, and so on.

That seems like quite a disparity to me; since it is a straight FLUX roll, about 42% (yes, forty-two percent!!!!!) of the inhabited planets in any sector will be an overall DRAIN on the economy. Seems to me that would destroy any economy - the part that works spends all its time assisting the part that doesn't; there is virtually no way for things to get better!

Sounds to me like the real world o:

Then, on pg,. 435, it indicates it reflects the current economic system such as legal procedures, tariffs, and so on. This seems MUCH more logical, playable, and usable, and a much smaller impact overall.

I like the second of the two scenarios - lot easier to use, and makes more sense. Has anybody done any qualitative analysis of trade, trying to figure out the effects of Ix and Ex on trade routes?

I've been trying to figure out how to approach the topic; G:FT did this before, but T5 seems to have distilled and condensed the formulae. How would we model this in T5, using just Ix and Ex???

Thoughts, rationale, and help needed...and thank you!

Dalthor

 

[DonM]

I've been trying to figure out how I want trade to work IMTU. The Varan EConomic and Trade ORganization (VECTOR) determines trade policy in the sector I've generated (http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Mikhail_Sector) with regard to "corporate" trade routes. I just started working on "free" trade.

While digging into the importance and economic extensions (Ix and Ex) I found some things that bothered me...

== part 1, this is submitted to the Errata thread

On pg. 427, section E it states Importance may range from -2 to +4.

On pg. 435, using the table, it can range from -3 to +5 (or maybe +6 depending on how you interpret the N/S/W base modifier.)

It ranges from -3 to +5 in the T5SS data, and there's errata addressing page 427 in the next update.

Also, if you have Naval and waystation, is that supposed to be +2, since it is harder to get NW than NS? I feel that entry may be missing from the chart.

Specifically, no. The idea was that NS and W represent an equivalent amount of investment in trade infrastructure that N and D by themselves do not.

If it sounds like I'm familiar with this, remember that I am still working on the T5SS data, and the formulas and data mining are all in my head...

== part 2, the critical portion

For the economic extension, the discussion of resource units (RUs) on pg. 428 indicates that negative efficiency is so destructive as to make the economy a net drain - examples being welfare states, physical limitations, and so on.

That seems like quite a disparity to me; since it is a straight FLUX roll, about 42% (yes, forty-two percent!!!!!) of the inhabited planets in any sector will be an overall DRAIN on the economy. Seems to me that would destroy any economy - the part that works spends all its time assisting the part that doesn't; there is virtually no way for things to get better!

Sounds to me like the real world o:

Then, on pg,. 435, it indicates it reflects the current economic system such as legal procedures, tariffs, and so on. This seems MUCH more logical, playable, and usable, and a much smaller impact overall.

I like the second of the two scenarios - lot easier to use, and makes more sense. Has anybody done any qualitative analysis of trade, trying to figure out the effects of Ix and Ex on trade routes?

I've been trying to figure out how to approach the topic; G:FT did this before, but T5 seems to have distilled and condensed the formulae. How would we model this in T5, using just Ix and Ex???

Thoughts, rationale, and help needed...and thank you!

Dalthor

Rob's the trade expert, and Marc, Rob and I have discussed this, but no firm answers for you yet. What EXACTLY are you trying to do -- do you want something like G:FT's trade maps, or developing details on local traffic, or something else?

 

[dalthor]

I have a general trade policy (VECTOR) in my campaign, but that is geared toward large-scale trade. I have a pair of players that would like more detail on a smaller scale, but T5 isn't much on how to go about it.

I'm looking for something along the line of the G:FT trade maps. I got nroute.c running on my PC, but was looking to do a T5 version for my campaign setting. I've been trying to decipher the code, but am not much on C...learning as I go.

I've been more a Visual Basic person for a long time. Would like to get to Perl or Java at some point. Was thinking about coding something, but I want it to be useful for more than just my campaign. I felt CotI was a good place to start.

Ed

 

[Original_Carl]

What is nroute.c? How do I get it?

*EDIT*

Nevermind. Found it. http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Nroute.c

 

[Murdoc]

I don't know about how it would affect the trade rules exactly, but the expanded rules on Economics in my House Rules (in my sig) talk a fair bit about Efficiency, in particular negative efficiency, what that means, what happens when you have it, different ways of "solving" it (not necessarily to everyone's satisfaction, like going to war), and what happens when left unchecked, with rules for economic decline and when and how to conduct revolutions.

I may have to think about how these might affect the trade rules, if at all. Hmm...

 

[robject]

Rob's the trade expert, and Marc, Rob and I have discussed this, but no firm answers for you yet. What EXACTLY are you trying to do -- do you want something like G:FT's trade maps, or developing details on local traffic, or something else?

More correctly: Rob had a good idea once, and we've discussed it, but no firm answers etc etc. I'm not an expert on interstellar trade. I don't have a degree in interstellar trade. I am not the shadow CEO of Makhidkarun. These are not the droids you're looking for.

 

[dalthor]

I'm in the process of "refining" what is in the book. At some point, I will post a synopsis under this thread, looking for verification, thoughts, and further ideas.

I already know there are players that want the detail. It's a matter of putting a cohesive chapter together.

Biggest thing I'm using is negative efficiency is a net importer, 0 is balanced, and 1 or greater is net exporter. Haven't got enough of an economic model to go beyond that (yet.)

I've also contemplated having efficiency affect pricing in some manner, rather than just blank importer or exporter. This make more sense, when you account for the fact that efficiency, as given, is a pure flux roll, and has NOTHING to do with current govt, tech, pop, or anything else!

I did take a look at Murdoc's info; it does mesh with some of what I have in mind.

 

[dalthor]

T5 gives each world an importance rating as well as an economic extension. Using these values, I've decided to create a trade structure, in an attempt to define trade routes in my universe.

I've established the following guidelines:

If population is zero, there is nothing to trade, and I ignore the world where it pertains to trade. This does NOT mean the world cannot be exploited, only that there is no population to support regular trade.

This is NOT the same as a labor value of zero, which equates to Pop-1.

IMP is the average of the importance of any two worlds, modified by the jump distance AND the number of jumps. The final IMP value determines the type of route between the two worlds.

IMP Route type
--- ----------
<=1 none, tramp/unregulated only
2 minor (red)
3 standard (yellow)
4+ major (green)

Modifiers:
Sub-sector capital = +1
Sector capital = +2
Number of Jumps = jumps - 1
Direct Jump-3 = -1, Jump-4 = -2 (adjust based on your campaigns jump availability)

===

A Resource unit (RU) is broken into four parts - (R)esources, (L)abor, (I)nfrastructure, and (E)fficiency, per T5. For R, L, and I, any value less than zero is changed to zero. Efficiency still may be negative.

Resource availability (RUnorm) is calculated as (R * L * I * E) and CAN BE zero or less. If zero or less, there is no OUTBOUND trade for that world unless you do it all yourself. The world is an IMPORT locale - they want inbound goods. Any outbound trade is self-procured (and may be illegal.)

Resources available for trade (RUadj) uses the same calculation as above with the provision that any value of zero is changed to a 1, to prevent multiplying by zero. The lower the value, the higher the prices. This may be a reflection of tariffs, legal issues, or something else. Efficiency is the big factor here, and skill in Merchant/trade can mitigate this. Ignore the sign for tons per day, it is mainly used to calculate cargo costs. For each efficiency point below zero, 10% is added to the prices. For each efficiency point above zero, 10% is subtracted from the prices.

Tonnage available (RUtons) is up to (R * L * I * (E+6)) tons per day.

Some example worlds:

(Ex)     RUnorm RUadj  RUtons Notes
(B00+0)  0      11     77     No labor force or structure, may be able to
                                self-procure some goods
(834-3)  -288   -288   -288   IMPORTS 288 tons/day, prices up to 30% higher
                                due to the -3 efficiency (inflation??)
(734-1)  -84    -84    -420   IMPORTS 420 tons/day, prices up to 10% higher
(734+1)  84     84     588    Same world, prices 10% lower due to better
                                efficiency; imports and exports goods
(734+3)  252    252    756    Higher efficiency means more goods, better prices
{(B9D+3) 3861   3861   11583  Lots of resources, labor, and support structure
                                means LOTS of cargo!

===

This is just a base - I'm still trying to figure out details, and possibly even come up with a better model. This does not change the amount of trade goods the PLAYERS can access - this is a basic model for generic trade.

I'd considered route type (major, standard, minor) by amount of trade, but that seems to conflict with the T5 trade based on importance.

The next phase will incorporate Allegiance modifiers (borders), alliances, and whatever else we come up with.

Thoughts and suggestions, please??

 

[Original_Carl]

Have you considered using an amalgamation of Ix, Ex and Cx to determine route type and amount of trade?

 

[dalthor]

Trade routes appear to be based solely on Ix, per pg 435. T5 doesn't give much info on determining trade routes; it is left wide open.

Cultural isn't factored in at all, and at this time I have no plans to modify by Cx.

I'm open to suggestions, tho, if you have thoughts on how Cx should be integrated into determining trade routes. I'd think that would be a modifier, probably similar to Allegiance, which I'm just starting to integrate into my overall picture.

 

[dalthor]

While tracing thru the code in nroute.c I realized that the function that calculates distance is FLAWED; it does not return the correct range in many cases. (Or maybe it is my brain??)

Maybe someday I'll correct the code - it isn't really important at this time. I'm rusty - haven't coded in a long time, and I was thinking about an updated version. The G:FT trade stuff might be fine, but I'd still like to figure out how to do it in T5.

Just for kicks, about 15 years ago I did a Visual Basic 6 test program to do path finding using the A* (A-star) method. I know, there are Perl and other implementations in use on TravMap and other sites out there.

I was thinking about resurrecting that code, and doing a trade app for T5, using importance and economic indicators. I've been trying to get a feel for the economy in my Varan sector, so come game time I can give a good picture to the players.

Haven't received much feedback on my original post above; I take that as I sign I'm on the right track. Yah, I know, silence doesn't mean validation. :rofl:

OK, enough prattle for now. Thoughts appreciated.

G'nite!