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Orbital facilities and small starships

Looking at LBB-A05, there are exterior demountable fuel tanks which cost an extra Cr500 per ton, so Cr1500/ton; I suspect that would be a more likely cost for vacuum-rated cargo containers.

Edit: The supports for the exterior demountable tanks costs Cr500/ton so mounted; the tanks cost the same as for interior demountable tanks.
 
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Shrug, yes you could have fully sealable containers. However I dug into detail on this and I have full starship hull containers of the sort Spinward favors, and internal hull containers that aren’t vacuum capable at 1/10 the cost.

For a lot of low value cargo and lower tech/facility starports, shaving off transport costs by having much cheaper containers or shipping bulk works much better.

BTW while we have an SC guy here, that game has cargo units and standard packing in cubic meters. So moveable by individuals or little handheld grav tools, and a lot of small package trade in illegals and pirating of cargo piñata style.

There are larger containers that get hauled by very big external mount liners.

This is an example of a Misc C which can go planet fall but expands to a big container hauler. Go to :30m in to skip to the container expansion and loading process. There are bigger container ships then this but in general it’s very much a small ship universe by our standards.

 
Our primary concern is volume (and supposedly structural integrity), and theirs would be weight (and corrugated steel?).

Unless, you can leverage corrugated steel to optimize volume.

Though squiggly lines aren't likely to increase space for cartons.

Liquid cargo would more likely go into spheres and cylinders.
 
Our primary concern is volume (and supposedly structural integrity), and theirs would be weight (and corrugated steel?).

Unless, you can leverage corrugated steel to optimize volume.

Though squiggly lines aren't likely to increase space for cartons.

Liquid cargo would more likely go into spheres and cylinders.
Bulktainers are used in RL.

btl-images-_0008_layer-3.jpg
 
This would be a "level of detail" further than is strictly necessary (or typically useful) for Traveller Players and Referees to know about, particularly in a Starship Merchant context (cargo is cargo, don't need to know what it's packed into or how).
Don't usually need to know. But when you do, you'll probably wish you knew before you found out that you needed to know.

And that's for freight. For cargo (i.e. stuff that they've bought to on-sell for profit), they really should be checking to make sure they have what they actually paid for, and that's it's properly packaged and stowed.
 
Shrug, yes you could have fully sealable containers. However I dug into detail on this and I have full starship hull containers of the sort Spinward favors, and internal hull containers that aren’t vacuum capable at 1/10 the cost.
That's the beauty of anonymous containers. What's in them and how they are sealed aren't your problem as a shipper (as long as they don't explode, infect, or irradiate anyone). As long as its clear that cargo transfer will (or won't) incur vacuum, the shipper can pick whatever they want.

Same with self contained refrigerated containers or any other specialty housing.
 
That's the beauty of anonymous containers. What's in them and how they are sealed aren't your problem as a shipper (as long as they don't explode, infect, or irradiate anyone). As long as its clear that cargo transfer will (or won't) incur vacuum, the shipper can pick whatever they want.

Same with self contained refrigerated containers or any other specialty housing.
My purpose in detailing containers was to provide another revenue source for the merchant shipping providing packing. It also includes expensive dangerous special cargoes at higher costs/fees per ton and subdividing a hold for bulk loads.

Once you get into that, a wise captain knows what’s in those containers so they can handle it. An even wiser captain accepts nothing on board that he doesn’t vet for safety, even if it isn’t speculative or leased containers he owns.

Here is the link to the original posting on it. Nearly ten years ago!


Oh yes forgot- this linked to cheaper ship computers partially justifying the hideously expensive CT computers and giving an option to get more commodity level computers running ships. With of course, consequences.
 
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BITS also had 101 cargos (Traveller Wiki link) and rules for various cargo containers, such as temperature and atmospheric rating. While I think this was all T4, the rules are really are edition agnostic. One of my earlier cargo trackers tried to implement parts of that as it generated a code even more complex than CT Bk 5 ship profiles. Kept wanting to put dangerous stuff in there and check if the players scanned the codes to see what it actually meant. Never did that though.
 
Subcontainers that can survive vacuum exposure, or have self contained environments.
The real distinction at that point is whether the (sub)containers are considered "fragile" or "sturdy" in combat relevant terms. In this context:
  • "Fragile" means that any hits or damage destroy the container, just like with external fuel tanks (demountable or drop).
  • "Sturdy" means that hits or damage need to be resolved normally using standard combat rules, just like with any other Armor: 0+ craft (small, big, etc.).
Demountable and Drop Tanks are considered "fragile" as far as damage results are concerned.
Armor: 0+ hull construction materials are considered "sturdy" as far as damage results are concerned.

Keeps things simple and in line with known behaviors when under fire in combat (or other emergency circumstance, such as a collision).



Fragile containers are FINE ... so long as nothing goes wrong (oops ... :oops:).
Sturdy containers are BETTER ... just in case something does go wrong. 😓

At which point you need to as yourself ... at what price, security? :unsure:

Some people are going to be cheapskates who are perfectly happy to take risks, or are more inclined to take the "disposable, one use" option.
Other people are going to be more inclined to invest in safety to ensure fewer opportunities for loss ... particularly over a long(er) time horizon of repeated use/ownership (say ... 40+ years of service life? :rolleyes:).



In terms of life cycle costs, (interior) Demountable Tanks (converted to cargo pods) will cost Cr1000 per ton ... while Configuration: 4 hull metal will cost Cr60,000 per ton. In other words, any hull metal container that you can reuse 60x will break even with the construction cost of a "demountable cargo pod" that is functionally disposable (use once, throw in the trash). At a commercial tempo (1 jump per 2 weeks), starships can jump 24-25 times per year.

In other words, "sturdy" hull metal that lasts for 2.5x years is "cheaper" in life cycle cost terms than using "fragile" (single use?) cargo pods that get discarded after every shipment in a disposable single use manner. The "sturdy" hull metal is more expensive in terms of up front cost (60x per ton), but in the long run is actually cheaper to use because it's longer lasting and you can amortize the construction cost expense over a much longer time horizon of reuse. :cool:💰
 
I think it depends.

If you're using (mini)ship hulls as containers, than they aren't fragile, and certainly are supposed to be air tight.

Doors would be treated as cargo hatches.

Depending on the edition, minimums may be required; let's say the current one, five tonnes (compared to supposedly four tonnes for a twenty footer); therefore can't be used as subcontainers for less than five tonnes.

Cartons with Styrofoam packing, have some form of protective buffering.

Plastic wrapped pallets could be considered tied down, as long as gravity field and inertial compensation hold.
 
In general, addressing the question of standardization... remember why starports are considered to be under Imperial law and not local law... they are run by the Imperial StarPort Authority (SPA).

So most things would be standardized to a basic level - there would always be local variations due to size/volume of trade/space & planetary environment, etc, but if you've dealt with a starport in an Imperial system in the Spinward Marches, you can fairly easily deal with a starport in an Imperial system in the Sol Sector as most procedures etc will be pretty similar.
 
Where things start to drift is the handover from the Imperial authority to the local authority (and back).

This is a fine area for taxes, tariffs, graft, corruption, etc. to come into play. Getting the cargos mechanically on and off of the ship, that's routine and standard. Getting the cargo into and out of the starport, is something else entirely. There's carte blanche on how hard or easy that is.
 
In general, addressing the question of standardization... remember why starports are considered to be under Imperial law and not local law... they are run by the Imperial StarPort Authority (SPA).

So most things would be standardized to a basic level - there would always be local variations due to size/volume of trade/space & planetary environment, etc, but if you've dealt with a starport in an Imperial system in the Spinward Marches, you can fairly easily deal with a starport in an Imperial system in the Sol Sector as most procedures etc will be pretty similar.
Recall this is IMTU. So not everyone has an Imperium or SPA.

Also, even in the OTU, there are enough gaps in the literature (thankfully) to allow us each to interpret the willingness and efficacy of standardization policies in our own games. While I have not refereed a game in the OTU in a looong time, I would want my Spinward Marches and Sol Sectors to be handled completely differently, as if they were in another regime altogether. That is a design for effect, in my case, not an argument of canon.
 
Note; On cargo containers, GURPS "Far Trader" Page 56 & 57 has a all the data you could need. See my "Consolidated Equipment List" for conversions to metric, on the containers tab.

(File Library under Miscellaneous)
 
Note; On cargo containers, GURPS "Far Trader" Page 56 & 57 has a all the data you could need. See my "Consolidated Equipment List" for conversions to metric, on the containers tab.

(File Library under Miscellaneous)
Is ver. 76 the latest version of you list?
 
Recall this is IMTU. So not everyone has an Imperium or SPA.

Also, even in the OTU, there are enough gaps in the literature (thankfully) to allow us each to interpret the willingness and efficacy of standardization policies in our own games. While I have not refereed a game in the OTU in a looong time, I would want my Spinward Marches and Sol Sectors to be handled completely differently, as if they were in another regime altogether. That is a design for effect, in my case, not an argument of canon.

A fair statement. We all tend to shape our game universes for how we want things.

I had come here via the "new posts" function, and had missed that it was in the "IMTU" section.
 
In Your Traveller Universe, are ships like Free Traders that are designed to enter atmosphere also capable of docking externally to a High Port to transfer cargo, or do they rely on being able to completely enter a pressurisable bay?

YES.
I tend to over-think things. It seems to me there are significant trade-offs in ship layout for atmospheric streamlining (even without an actual airframe configuration) vs a sufficiently large cargo hatch that allows for docking in space.

For it to work you have to have (several) standard hatch sizes/designs but using a pressurisable bay means the high port has to be much bigger and will need much more atmosphere replenishment (you will never pump completely to vacuum in a very large volume).

As I said, probably over-thinking but I was going to try to design a A1 and trying to locate hatches, hold shape to accommodate standard containers, fuel scoops (and am I going to have to board passengers through the cargo hatch and station umbilicals too or is there a standard personnel hatch a standard distance from a cargo hatch?), thrust plates, CG plates, sensors, landing gear, all to not interfere with one another, is giving me an appreciation of aerospace engineers / naval architects.
Ok, IMTU, the standard cargo docking ring accommodates a 3 by 3 meter cross-section pass through. Though there is also a 1.5 meter ring that will pass "palletized" cargo as well (this often linked to a lift system inside the ship). These two rings are the most common in smaller ships.

My version of the 400 ton trader has a larger extendable ring under the cowling of it's nose, generally a 4.5 one.

Please note all of the above draws heavily on Albie Fiores deckplan work for White Dwarf/Games Workshop.
 
In other words, "sturdy" hull metal that lasts for 2.5x years is "cheaper" in life cycle cost terms than using "fragile" (single use?) cargo pods that get discarded after every shipment in a disposable single use manner. The "sturdy" hull metal is more expensive in terms of up front cost (60x per ton), but in the long run is actually cheaper to use because it's longer lasting and you can amortize the construction cost expense over a much longer time horizon of reuse. :cool:💰
The fly in that ointment is the MANUFACTURER had to pay for a container that will last 100 years, and then shipped off his "Machine Parts" to the world Far, Far Away where the PURCHASER now has an empty cargo container to sell.

The PARTS MANUFACTURER will either want the least expensive container, or he will pass on the cost of the Container, or there is a MIDDLEMAN that needs to operate on BOTH WORLDS to rent the container and accept return of the rental [which can then lead to the balance of trade issue where empty containers start to pile up on worlds that import more than they export.]
 
or there is a MIDDLEMAN that needs to operate on BOTH WORLDS to rent the container and accept return of the rental [which can then lead to the balance of trade issue where empty containers start to pile up on worlds that import more than they export.]
My presumption is that there will be third party companies ("middlemen" as you cite) that manage the logistics of container mobility on the interplanetary and interstellar scales.

That's right, interplanetary "counts" as well for this, so even if a star system has a "balance of trade" problem where they import more container Boxes than they export, that doesn't necessarily mean that they pile up and remain idle at a starport (in a big heap, just rusting away) ... because the only and exclusive use for them is interstellar trade. They can be put to use within a single star system for interplanetary shipping, just as easily as is done for interstellar shipping.

Additionally, there is always the opportunity for "one way tickets" for the shipments of specific Boxes, simply because they're "useful" as mobile containers within the destination star system. Think of ore processors and pharmaceutical industrial laboratories (for example). Perhaps the Boxes are useful for the purpose of mobilizing their contents, such as a field hospital or a mobile workshop that can be "delivered" (by small craft lifter) to specific points of interest for in-situ uses.

What about colonization programs, where the entire point and purpose is to deliver more to a destination star system (imports) than would be reasonable to retrieve from it (exports) until the colony is "well established" and self-sustaining (typically, Population: 5+). Container Boxes can provide ready made housing for personnel, on terrestrial surfaces (under atmosphere) or for Belters based in orbits.



My point being that a "symmetrical balance of trade" in/out of specific star systems is not always "ideal" ... let alone a priority. Simply "adding to the pool" of container Boxes within a star system will promote the interplanetary movement of goods (and the associated services), helping to lower transport costs (by increasing supply) in ways that reduce "friction" in the local in-system economic outlook.



My assumption is that Population: 4- mainworlds will almost certainly be running a "trade imbalance" of importing more than they're exporting under most circumstances. The world economy simply isn't diverse and developed enough yet at those population levels and is going to be heavily reliant on imports. The primary export will often times be resources (mineral, vegetable or animal) to at least try and sustain the population while attempting to grow (or otherwise not collapse).

Population: 5-6 worlds are able to extract more resources for export, but they are still reliant on imports. I would expect the balance of trade to be closer to equal, but still a net importer of goods. Non-industrial worlds trade code worlds are primarily concerned with resource extraction to sustain themselves, after all.

Population: 7+ is when the world economy can start shifting its balance of trade towards being more reliant on exports than imports, depending on the trade code classifications. Non-agricultural and Poor worlds will ALWAYS have a demand for agricultural goods from offworld ... while Agricultural and Industrial worlds will ALWAYS have a supply of goods that need to be exported (big picture view).



But again, Traveller is meant to played as a game for the purposes of entertainment ... not as a life (let alone economic) simulator. :unsure:
 
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