• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

In the Robot book coming out

Does it contain rules for converting a copy of a characters mind to a computer? Like an AI for ships and such? I know about 25 or so years back real life we were implanting neurons on computer systems and giving them the capacity of a 4 year old mentally so I would think we could carbon copy in the future.
 
Yeah, copy a player character brain into an unstoppable Terminator style killing machine, and then if the robot is somehow destroyed, the PC can just donwload into a newer, better model, with like, FGMP-15/RAM Grenade/TL-15 Laser inside TL-15 Battle Dress/Reflec Armor level protection, with Grav Flight capability, of course.

Now why didn't I think of that?
 
I don't know about Mongoose Traveller.

However, there actually is something like that in T5, although it's a bit more involved than simply downloading into a computer.
 
fun fun

1. if you can copy from a brain to a computer, then you should be able to copy from the computer to a brain. Is the pc truly in his right mind? or is he an AI....
2. If the copy is good, then would it be capable of acknowledging itself as a copy, or would it consider itself to be the original and that the other was the copy?
3. would the copy be able to maintain its sanity when it discovers that it is a 'robot' when the personality has always be living before then.
4 if the pc can copy his mind to a machine, then that infers that there may be a neural interface to the pc's brain. Would hackers write adware and trojans and spyware to the pc's brain? Can the pc's brain be crashed? is it capable of rebooting? can memory be deleted or changed? Can a brain be infected by VIrus?

if a pc really wants to go all munchkin in the game, there as tonnes of ways to seriously mindf**k him with this.
 
I know about 25 or so years back real life we were implanting neurons on computer systems and giving them the capacity of a 4 year old mentally so I would think we could carbon copy in the future.

Can you reference a source?
This seems an exageration for 1985 computer capability.
 
fun fun

1. if you can copy from a brain to a computer, then you should be able to copy from the computer to a brain. Is the pc truly in his right mind? or is he an AI....
2. If the copy is good, then would it be capable of acknowledging itself as a copy, or would it consider itself to be the original and that the other was the copy?
3. would the copy be able to maintain its sanity when it discovers that it is a 'robot' when the personality has always be living before then.
4 if the pc can copy his mind to a machine, then that infers that there may be a neural interface to the pc's brain. Would hackers write adware and trojans and spyware to the pc's brain? Can the pc's brain be crashed? is it capable of rebooting? can memory be deleted or changed? Can a brain be infected by VIrus?

if a pc really wants to go all munchkin in the game, there as tonnes of ways to seriously mindf**k him with this.
It's totally up to the authors and GM's as to the transfer of consciousness one direction or both but to me copying the mind is like copying data. It is not transferring AI. The computer still retains it's own AI or lack thereof.

1) No. My reasoning: You can come up with technology to scan pages from a book into a computer (scanner) but it is an entirely different technology to create an entire bound book from a computer. And before you bring up printers, they produces pages, not bound books. It might already possible in MGT to have something similar to a scanner and the printer with a wafer jack transferring data between human and computer.

2) I would think that the copy would have memories of growing up as a person all the way up to the day it was transferred. If possible, it would know it was a copy and not the original.

3) First, is the person aware that the technology exists? If so, I would think this would be like waking up to find you have artificial limbs. Some people would go into more shock than others. Less so if you are prepared and aware of going in to have the procedure before hand.

4) huh? All these questions seam separate from the brain into computer topic. A psion could probably do all these things to someone else. Brainwashing, interrogation, subliminal messages and many other methods are available already to create the things mentioned.

A bad data wafer in a wafer jack could probably cause all kinds of problems. That language program is a hacked version and everything you try to say is an insult or swear word.

Is it common for battle armor be crashed, hacked, implanted with adware, trojans, viruses and spyware in your TU? I'd think even more protection would be in place for the human brain. If this type of stuff is too possible then I'd doubt the technology would ever go into 'production'. Where would the money be if all you get is law suits. Can computers sue?

5) Does the computer AI treat inferior data coming from faulty human brain as corrupt and a possible virus and delete them making the process impossible even at the highest tech level?

6) What is to stop mass duplication of hundreds or millions of copies? What are the implications to the 3IU?
 
Last edited:
I don't agree that being able to copy a mind into a machine necessarily means that you can copy it back out into a brain. But there are alternatives.

One of the old CT modules (Expedition to Zhodane?) had a "Personality Overlay Device" that was a non-cybernetic version of this. You could load someone else's personality in on top of your own (presumably to hide from Zhodani mind scans) and have it go away on a certain key phrase or situation.

No reason you couldn't do something similar in the cybernetic realm with an advanced wafer jack or some such.
 
Also, on CosmicGamer's point - I think that the 3I as a whole can't really withstand "trans-humanistic singularity" developments without completely changing character. Given what is probably an overly cynical view of human nature, I suspect that "cyber mind" stuff will result in more problems than solutions for most people, with licensing fees and IP restrictions greatly limiting the pleasantness of a post-singularity lifestyle. People dislike government intervention in their lives already - imagine if the computer operators could rewrite reality and your memories at their own whim.

But then again, I'm sure Medieval peasants would feel the same about our society and its "rich" collection of fees, rules and social taboos. And when your physical body gives out, upload would provide an alternative to checking out completely. After time, the uploads would outnumber the "larval form" humans....

But IMHO a society that has turned to cyberspace would become ultimately narcissistic from the point of view of the 3I - a sort of scifi Lotus Eaters - turning away completely from the "concerns of the physical world", and would not make amusing or profitable places for interstellar traders to visit, except as a novelty destination. (Or scientific survey of some sort?)

Of course it could go more like the AT-43 universe, where the post-singularity humans are indeed VERY active in the "real world", and still crave physical bodies for themselves, though the form and number of those bodies can vary at the individual's whim. (Hmm, a new threat to the Imperium?)

So I think that such a world could certainly exist in the 3I setting, though it might be beyond the actual borders of the 3I, but in general I think extensive trans-humanism doesn't mesh well with the 3I setting.
 
fun fun
1. if you can copy from a brain to a computer, then you should be able to copy from the computer to a brain. Is the pc truly in his right mind? or is he an AI....

Not nessesarily. A simple analogy would be; I can read from a page in a book, but I can't change what's printed on the page. Not the best but I'm sure you get my point.

2. If the copy is good, then would it be capable of acknowledging itself as a copy, or would it consider itself to be the original and that the other was the copy?

An exact copy would believe itself to be the original.

3. would the copy be able to maintain its sanity when it discovers that it is a 'robot' when the personality has always be living before then.

Computer psycology is a very interesting subject! :)

4 if the pc can copy his mind to a machine, then that infers that there may be a neural interface to the pc's brain. Would hackers write adware and trojans and spyware to the pc's brain? Can the pc's brain be crashed? is it capable of rebooting? can memory be deleted or changed? Can a brain be infected by VIrus?

I asked this question about 17 years ago :) Virus would be able to kill you, but I don't think it would be able to "infect" you.

Best regards,

Ewan
 
I'm sorry I may have miss quoted I meant months not years. I couldn't find the exact article I read so long ago but heres a PDF link stating that Human Neron's were being placed on computer chips in the 1988 and earlier.

http://www.jbc.org/content/268/21/15772.short

I know now a days they are experimenting with grasshopper brains for cars to give it that instant reaction for breaking in parking lots (shopping carts exec..) and not running over pedestrians running in between vehicles.

We have self parking cars now in production.

there was an experiment for doing a caravan style of cars going down the freeway here in San Diego not to long ago. Self adjusting / breaking and keeping a equal distance from each other. and there is always the experimental robots being used by the military and the self navigation race of robot cars we have from time to time.

What I was asking is in (Traveller) 11, 12, 13, 14, 15th tech levels there would be integration into buildings and vehicles like spaceships to help the drivers / pilots or your standard Joe better his life's living? I know they have done this in other scifi areas like Star Trek, Andromeda, and Battletech exec..

Just curious if the new robot book for Mongoose Traveller touched on this is all.
 
Last edited:
1) No. My reasoning: You can come up with technology to scan pages from a book into a computer (scanner) but it is an entirely different technology to create an entire bound book from a computer. And before you bring up printers, they produces pages, not bound books. It might already possible in MGT to have something similar to a scanner and the printer with a wafer jack transferring data between human and computer.

2) I would think that the copy would have memories of growing up as a person all the way up to the day it was transferred. If possible, it would know it was a copy and not the original.

3) First, is the person aware that the technology exists? If so, I would think this would be like waking up to find you have artificial limbs. Some people would go into more shock than others. Less so if you are prepared and aware of going in to have the procedure before hand.

4) huh? All these questions seam separate from the brain into computer topic. A psion could probably do all these things to someone else. Brainwashing, interrogation, subliminal messages and many other methods are available already to create the things mentioned.

A bad data wafer in a wafer jack could probably cause all kinds of problems. That language program is a hacked version and everything you try to say is an insult or swear word.

Is it common for battle armor be crashed, hacked, implanted with adware, trojans, viruses and spyware in your TU? I'd think even more protection would be in place for the human brain. If this type of stuff is too possible then I'd doubt the technology would ever go into 'production'. Where would the money be if all you get is law suits. Can computers sue?

5) Does the computer AI treat inferior data coming from faulty human brain as corrupt and a possible virus and delete them making the process impossible even at the highest tech level?

6) What is to stop mass duplication of hundreds or millions of copies? What are the implications to the 3IU?

1) Yes. Although the process may be simpler in one direction when compared to the other. Using the computer->book analogy.... it already happens on a daily basis where data from computers are made into books. I am unaware of any author that does not use a word processor for writing these days. The interface is clumsy and involved, yes, but files from a word processor ARE made into books today. The main reason it is so unwieldy is that you are not only encoding data, but you are also constructing the storage media when moving from computers to books.

2) Good one!. But would the perfect copy of conciousness, complete with ego and self-awareness be able to come to terms with the fact that it is an artificial construct, possibly/probably modified in some fashion? Considering how adept humans are at rationalizing situations for self serving reasons, would a perfect copy not rationalize its situation and possibly convince itself that it is the original? paranoid killer robots, oh-boy.

3) I think it would be far worse than waking up to find you've now got artificial limbs ( which can and has led to severe depression, feelings of worthlessness and suicides among humans ). Its like waking up to find you've now got artificial limbs AND finding out that you are not unique in the world, that you may have had you're mind tampered with, and that you might be only a copy of someone else. Paranoid EMO killer robots..yay.

4) If data can go from the brain to a computer then, imho, data can go from the computer to the brain.
" It might already possible in MGT to have something similar to a scanner and the printer with a wafer jack transferring data between human and computer. "
I don't think the human brain can tell good data from bad when it comes to filtering out spam and virii. After all, the human brain has never had to evolve a firewall before as such a thing had never been possible before DNI's. Hacking the brain is possible and has been heavily research before with mixed results ( CIA's Project MKUltra, for example, which copied USSR and PRC's efforts during the cold war ). And as you've pointed out, a psion is more than capable of doing this; wetware infecting another wetware system with a wireless connection. No doubt, 'those in power' would be researching psions abilities in this matter and perhaps testing to see if psion capabilities are transferred along with the consciousness transfer/copy; is psionics 'hardware' based of 'software' based, so to speak
wetware crash = coma or death
wetware reboot/warm_boot = coming out of a coma
But can wetware by cold_booted once a copy is installed? or is it dead....
Could a transfer/copy have a backdoor installed to make the pc into a Manchurian Candidate?

IMTU, any non-biological system can be hacked, and biological systems with DNI's can be hacked although by their nature it is extremely difficult to do anything useful and such systems do have added hardware firewalls separate from the wetware to protect the DNI ports. But anything is possible depending on the needs of a story.
Can computers sue?
How about ...
Can an individual prove that he is the original and not a copy?
What about transferring the original to a computer to save the consciousness and then transferred back into one or more cloned bodies? How to prove the original then? A watermark of sorts in the data?..then it would be 'hacked' in a way.

5) what constitutes 'bad data'? Would such an AI firewall prevent the copy/transfer of a consciousness having a mild pyschotic condition? Would there be a 'safe' level of sanity?

6) the only things stopping millions of copies are hardware requirements.
The brain is ~100% synaptic processing/storage which the OTU says is possible beyond tech 18 ( tech 18 allows 95% synaptics according to book 0 ) by which time true self-aware and imaginative AI's are possible anyways.
Who knows?..maybe this is the reason that the OTU's computers are so weak by real-world standards. It keeps commonly available hardware below the hardware requirements for this sort of thing.

DNI = 'direct neural interface'
This link also mentions neurochips briefly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain–computer_interface

I guess I should mention that MTU looks a bit more like 'Ghost in the Shell' than the usual Third Imperium.
Personally, I think that Trans-Humanism would probably lead to psychological problems were it actually put into wide-scale practice, so I don't do too much with it past some cyberpunk trappings.

hmmm project 2501....
if the general standard of beauty is the average of all faces, then perhaps project 2501 could be thought of as a average of all uploaded consciousnesses, which would then approach an idealised level of perfect sanity?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n19_v137/ai_9028391/
 
1) Yes. Although the process may be simpler in one direction when compared to the other. Using the computer->book analogy.... it already happens on a daily basis where data from computers are made into books. I am unaware of any author that does not use a word processor for writing these days. The interface is clumsy and involved, yes, but files from a word processor ARE made into books today. The main reason it is so unwieldy is that you are not only encoding data, but you are also constructing the storage media when moving from computers to books.
Sorry for some misunderstanding. Of course it is possible. My example is meant to show that it takes different technology in both hardware and programs to scan a book into a computer than to create a book from a computer. And thus I feel it it is very possible that technology to transfer from brain to computer is different than from computer to brain.

5) what constitutes 'bad data'? Would such an AI firewall prevent the copy/transfer of a consciousness having a mild pyschotic condition? Would there be a 'safe' level of sanity?
Again, possibly a misunderstanding. I was saying that human brain data of any and all quality might be considered faulty by a computer AI. And from this the next thought is that any and all procedures to copy a human brain to a AI computer might fail without some kind of override - which the computer AI might take as a hostile action.
 
Back in Journal #2 on page 30 & 31, Marc and Loren were discussing clones and the backing up of memories into them. The PCs could use the backed up clones as a sort of life insurance.

This idea of memory/consciousness as a thing has been extrapolated on over the years from backing up memory and implanting it into clones, to downloading one's entire consciousness (Steve Jackson Games Cyberworld called it XoXing), to Transhuman Space and Eclipse Phase taking the idea of consciousness/intelligence (organic or artificial) as the PC and the body (be it biological or mechanical) sleeved on and off like it was equipment.

I see nothing wrong with it inherently - I mean, just because consciousness transfer exists does not mean everyone with access to it will have a T-800 combat body with built in FGMP waiting for them to slip into it, you know? Then again, the movie Surrogates had an interesting take on just how tough a robot body might be, and what society might be like with consciousness transfer an everyday commodity.

This type of technology certainly does alter the feel of what Traveller is for a lot of people though. Of course, as has been mentioned, there were already shades of it in Traveller with the above JTAS article, Adventure 6, and with ideas being put forth in T5.

I personally hope the forthcoming Riki Tiki Traveller Robots book deals with it full on.
 
Back
Top