Interstellar Migration

[Malenfant]

How much is a low berth slot in an emergency berth? And how much would it cost to revive the occupant?

Each Fast Drug dose (plus the reviving drug) costs 2900 credits according to the list in CT (back of Book 2, IIRC).

Would it be cheaper to churn out fast drug than to install low berths?

It's that week long travel time that's the killer, plus the time spent in realspace transit between the planet and the jump limit. If it was a case of just getting people off the planet then it wouldn't be so bad. But the fact that you have to keep them alive for so long (even if in suspended animation of some form) adds a hell of a lot of complication.

Plus of course, you have to get everything to the affected system. That alone could take several weeks or months while you gather the ships.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Low berth power consumption is negligible AFAIK. Tho, when you are talking thousands of low berths, I'm sure there's an appreciable energy drain. Chances of surviving a low berth trip ARE low, but this would be an emergency. The chance of coming out of a low berth alive would have to be higher than the chance of staying alive on the planet. The reason to use low berths is to be able to pack more people in. .5 tons required instead of 4 tons for a stateroom. No life support (food, air, etc...) needed to speak of. Yes, it would probably be a tragedy of immense proportions for those poor people that didn't make it in the low berths (probably like 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 died - and most likely children or older folks that didn't have the endurance), but less of a tragedy than it would be if they ALL died on their planet.

Fast drug sounds cool, but the thing is, you can't put a population of this size just to the next system over. Do you have enough extra food, so the populace doesn't effectively starve in about a month when they all run out of food? No established planet in their right mind would do it. It would be anarchy as soon as people started getting hungry. They would have to be split up over a lot of different worlds, and that means more travel time (more than just one week probably). You can keep someone in low berth for a while, but you can't keep administering Fast Drug, unless you want to be paying more and more money. Is there any penalty for using Fast Drug? Health effects? I think it depends on the version of Traveller how the low berth works - one version it's rare for you to die, but you can get health defects and such much more often. I think that was MegaTraveller, but I'm not sure.

Later,

Scout

 

[daryen]

Actually, in many cases you can just use "the next system over". My scenario is a perfect example of that: Entrope and Winston. Fitting all 11 billion people of Entrope on Winston is not really a big problem. (Feeding them is, but that would be true no matter where the go.)

In CT, the most efficient "sizing" solution is emergency berths, where you get 4 people per dton instead of just 2. However, you could always just install gobs and gobs of "small craft couches". Since you are talking about a trip that takes much less than a day in relative time, it isn't much different that an intercontinental flight today.

(Or you could use GT, where you get much higher person densities. There low berths hold four per half ton, and acceleration couches hold 12 per ton. Plus, you can use a bunk room (same size as a stateroom) to get bunks and life support for 16.)

There are no known side-effects of Fast Drug.

Chances of survival from low berths vary per system. In GT, there is very little chance of death. In CT, the chance of dying is 2-4 on 2D (17%). Improve roll by one if medic-2 attending (8%), reduce roll by one if subject's END is 6 or less (28%). (Modifiers cumulative.) Other systems fall in between those two extremes.

 

[Malenfant]

Since you are talking about a trip that takes much less than a day in relative time, it isn't much different that an intercontinental flight today.

How do you figure that? Ships always (barring misjump) spend a week in jumpspace, regardless of the reference frame.

 

[Spinward Scout]

<<<How do you figure that? Ships always spend a week in jumpspace, regardless of the reference frame.>>>

If they all had Fast Drug, they would experience the time of one week like it was only a day and only need they life support for about 6 hours or so. They would still SPEND a week in jumpspace, but to them it would only feel like a day.

Wouldn't it be easier to effectively keep them all in stasis (low berths) until they DO have enough food and shelter shipped in/built/grown for them? Then they can be revived in batches instead of all at once. Is Winston a LowPop planet? Is that why they'd all fit?

Later,

Scout

 

[Malenfant]

Oh, I see. You're right about the subjective "feel" of being in Fast Drug, but surely you can't just dump a huge pile of people in a cargohold like that and leave them. They'd still need monitoring, maintainance, exercise to prevent their muscles from atrophying (one week in a bed is one week in a bed, regardless of how slowed down you are, surely?).

I'm sure we're missing something about Fast Drug here, it seems too convenient... (for one thing, why don't people normally use that instead of low berths?)

 

[daryen]

Winston's UWP is E887573-6. It has an irrelevant population and is the size of Earth with a breathable atmosphere.

That is a good point about the low berths, though. The ability to "warehouse" them for as long as it took to build the infrastructure is a definite advantage.

As for Fast Drug, it is too convenient. It works, is available, and has no side effects. It is, quite frankly, too good. I, too, have always wondered by they didn't make 1/10 size (6 day) doses and use them during jump. It is the best of all worlds.

As a result, it was not used much IMTU. Players didn't trust what type of unpublished side effects would show up.

However, using it straight up, I wouldn't be putting them in bunks. I would use airline-style seating. That allows them to move around as necessary. And you could also put a few stewards under, too, to help them as needed at their speed.

 

[Spinward Scout]

It must be Slow Drug then that has the nasty side effects. I'll have to check my books tonite.

Later,

Scout

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by daryen:
However, using it straight up, I wouldn't be putting them in bunks. I would use airline-style seating. That allows them to move around as necessary. And you could also put a few stewards under, too, to help them as needed at their speed. [/QB]

Surely Fast Drug puts them in a state of hibernation. I can't believe that they'd be moving around at turtle speed somehow.

 

[far-trader]

Well, a quick read after a brief absence and a short post before I must rush off again for a bit.

One post mentioned would there be an Imperial FEMA type agency to handle such an effort. I'd say not, it'd be up to the individual world to prepare for any such disasters. The Imperium would get involved when you try to move that population interstellar, more so if the place you're thinking of moving to is in an Imperial system. They may help or deny your attempts to approach.

Off hand, if I did the numbers right (a quick HGv2 design based on evac of an average Pop 9 (5 billion) world. Just double the effort for the 10 billion scenario, the time remains the same. Just, he says

Depending on the capacity of the world to build TL15 (for the power plant) starships this is a 5 year plan* to evac about 5 billion (5,000,000,000) people and resettle them anywhere within 1 year of travel/time at J1 with wilderness refuelling supported. Note that the capacity to build the ships is the big problem but I'm not aware of that capacity, if it was defined (maybe TCS).

* 4 years if you allow construction time to be adjusted by the same factor used for cost reduction for the hull, a mtu idea I think .

Start with a plan for a 1M ton ship. You will need about 1,550 of them being built simultaneously. Passengers will be processed as the ship is built. They will also form a good part of your labour I guess. Accident and natural death will reduce the population some during the effort and no births will be allowed, simple contraceptives in all food will be mandated to insure this is achieved.

The ship will be a simple streamlined flattened sphere affair, each one built near a suitable source of population and resources. While under construction it's power needs will be supplied by planetary sources. By building on the planet we make it easier to load the evacuees.

After factoring the drives (J1 M1 P1), fuel (1J1 and 4 wks) and purifier, bridge and computer (model/7) and the operational crew's quarters (4,000 crew per ship), life support for 1 year (1 ton per 20 crew per month), the remaining tonnage is devoted to emergency lowberths. No one will be taking much baggage on this trip.

This allows 806,573 emergency lowberths with a total capacity of 3,226,292 sleepers, per ship, in addition to the 4,000 crew memebers. Many of your sleepers will be medical techs who will be the last in and the first out.

Emergency lowberths are ideal since once the people are in they only need to be brought out after a suitable site is found, and even then may be brought out in managable numbers. Lowberths do not consume any resources and are good for centuries though the risks do increase over time.

The one year deadline for finding places for the evacuees is based on the ship's carried stores and need for maintenance. If suitable ports can be found to address these needs the ships could continue to operate for decades.

Anyway that's my quick take on the problem

I agree, it's a fun thought experiment. Feel free to poke holes in my plan, it was rather quickly done, after-all it is an emergency right

 

[Spinward Scout]

Wow, that sounds good. A SHORT post? I'd hate to see one of your long posts.

What supercomputer are you using to calculate all of that?

Later,

Scout

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Wow, that sounds good. A SHORT post? I'd hate to see one of your long posts.

What supercomputer are you using to calculate all of that?


Later,

Scout

Thanks. My long posts usually begin sincerely with words like "in brief", there's a few around here

I did that on my model/F bic

That'd be a fine point bic pen, and a couple glances at LBB 5. Though much of the formula was once memorized I still have to check. It is slowly coming back the more I play with it again.

It's really a pretty simple design, took no more than a couple minutes till I had to recalculate to add the extended life support and fuel purifiers. I did cheat and use a calculator for the low berth numbers, my fingers don't go up to billions

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I'm sure we're missing something about Fast Drug here, it seems too convenient... (for one thing, why don't people normally use that instead of low berths?)

Availability for one thing ; 8+ for a supply to be found on a world (DM +1 per TL over 9), 9+ for the antidote (DM +1 per TL over 12).
Cost is the other factor, the drugs as you say are 2900Cr, but you would still have to pay to be shipped as freight

so add 500Cr to the price.

 

[womble]

Far trader said:

"...the ships could continue to operate for decades.
"

Oooh. An entire 'gypsy' fleet. Tootling round looking for somewhere to settle, getting more and more desperate and broken-down... Target for slaver-pirates and just plain old scrap-value pirates...

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by womble:
Far trader said:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
"...the ships could continue to operate for decades.
"

Oooh. An entire 'gypsy' fleet. Tootling round looking for somewhere to settle, getting more and more desperate and broken-down... Target for slaver-pirates and just plain old scrap-value pirates... </font>[/QUOTE]Add in remnants of the original world's jump capable merchant and military fleets and you could have quite the caravan. A little like Battlestar Galactica only better prepared.

I would imagine that if there is no Imperial FEMA-like agency, that the Imperium would definately become involved once a caravan like that started wandering around in its borders.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
How much is a low berth slot in an emergency berth?

I don't have the books here, but I think they'd be quite cheap if you can amortize it over Traveller's standard 40 years. I don't think they'd be competetive if you first have to get them installed in a ship and only have a limited time to evacuate people.

And how much would it cost to revive the occupant?

Nothing.

Each Fast Drug dose (plus the reviving drug) costs 2900 credits according to the list in CT (back of Book 2, IIRC).

I don't have my books here, so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Fast Drug cost Cr900 and the antidote Cr1200 (or vice versa). And you don't need to use the antidote, you can just let the evacuees sleep it off.

Would it be cheaper to churn out fast drug than to install low berths?

That would be my guess, yes.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Wouldn't it be easier to effectively keep them all in stasis (low berths) until they DO have enough food and shelter shipped in/built/grown for them?

What low berths do you propose to keep them in? The ones you installed on your emergency rescue ships has to be emptied so that the ships can go back for another load.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
As for Fast Drug, it is too convenient. It works, is available, and has no side effects. It is, quite frankly, too good.

That depends. I agree that they're too good for the Classic Era rules, where they provide a safe alternative to the murderous low berths at a cost very lose to the cost of low passage. But if you use less deadly low berths and sensible economic rules to figure out the cost, fast drugs are more expensive than jump-1 and jump-2 low passage and more or less ties with jump-3 low passage. As it is more inconvenient[*], low berths will win in those cases.

[*] I'm assuming that passengers are left to wake up on their own. If antidote is used it becomes very convenient, but the cost more than doubles.

I, too, have always wondered by they didn't make 1/10 size (6 day) doses and use them during jump. It is the best of all worlds.

That's easy. Lower dosages don't work.


Hans

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

The option that had occured to me was pre-positioned evacuation 'modules' that could be picked up by evac ships ferried into the system at need. The modules could either be large spaceships with minimal crew and a lot of cold berths or simply large boxes containing just cold berths and any supporting equipment.

The individual modules could be built locally as the world grows in size or centrally and ferried to worlds with a possible need for them. By pre-positioning them, it could probably be argued that they would be incorporated into the worlds normal distaster plans.

Upon decided to evacuate, word would be sent to wherever the tenders are maintained. The tenders would travel to the endagered system and begin ferrying the pre-positioned modules offworld and once each tender is loaded jumping them out-system. I would imagine that simply getting the populace off world could be done "relatively" quickly this way. Depending on the reason for evacuation, it may not matter that it would actually take a while to actually get the evac modules shifted outsystem.

This seems like it should be a workable scheme though I'm not sure it really fits in the OTU (at least for the Imperium). For one, it would require a world or worlds that are sufficiently at risk (or a population sufficiently paranoid) to require or allow for the planning and allocation of resources to this sort of evacuation scheme.

For another, I just don't see the Imperium getting involved in this sort of thing up front. I could see a local subsector or sector government lending a hand if petitioned for help, but anything as involved as this seems like it would be too intrusive based on my perception of the Imperium.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by womble:
Far trader said:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
"...the ships could continue to operate for decades.
"

Oooh. An entire 'gypsy' fleet. Tootling round looking for somewhere to settle, getting more and more desperate and broken-down... Target for slaver-pirates and just plain old scrap-value pirates... </font>[/QUOTE]Add in remnants of the original world's jump capable merchant and military fleets and you could have quite the caravan. A little like Battlestar Galactica only better prepared.

I would imagine that if there is no Imperial FEMA-like agency, that the Imperium would definately become involved once a caravan like that started wandering around in its borders. </font>[/QUOTE]Yep

That's what I had envisioned too, except you'd probably have more than one fleet, and occassionally they'd cross paths in space. A time for celebration and sharing data (hard, soft and genetic), stuff like "have you found a world that'll take some refugees", "where have some of the people settled", and "look out for this system or that", and so on.

<edit>

And secret deals made in the depths of space for free traders to take some sleepers to their next world using forged papers. A whole underground railway to get the people to worlds that might not otherwise allow refugees. To the Imperium and the world these are just normal travellers who have booked passage to their world.

Lots of campaign possibilities here, just need to find a world to originate them from