Invasion of America

[mbrinkhues]

Okay, I promise no more mentions of Marzipan and similar WMG (Weapons of massive weight gain)

As for invading the US:

Why should one do so after the government has collapsed? Doing it might actually get the governments to co-operate (common foe etc) rather than engage in a low-level civil war. With the industry centers destroyed there is nothing of interest in the US for the UdSSR.

The UdSSR has all the resources it will likely need and should know that forced labour does not work all that well. So sending the occasional agent to keep the factions going, maybe suppling the Fashist terrorists faction (New America IIRC) with some arms through Alaska and keep the army at home.

 

[kafka47]

If I recall correctly not all industry was destroyed in the US. Rather, just industries that were related to war & oil production. Concievably, which is why the North got whacked so bad, but places like NYC might actually be up & running.

In terms of chocolates...the Belgians already have it covered.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by kafka47:
If I recall correctly not all industry was destroyed in the US. Rather, just industries that were related to war & oil production. Concievably, which is why the North got whacked so bad, but places like NYC might actually be up & running.

In terms of chocolates...the Belgians already have it covered.

IIRC: War production, oil roduction and transport. And they'd sure as hell gone for the military harbors (I remember a reference to Holly Loch getting a nuke either in Challenge or the base rules(1))

That would mean for me that cities like Detroid (Trucks are more important to war than tanks), San Franzisko (Naval base), Silicon Valley (Satellites), Chicago (Major port and railhub IIRC), Seattle (Boing), New Orleans (McDonald-Douglas IIRC), Huston (Oil, Space), New York (Harbor) etc would have likely gotten the bomb while Washington or Denver might have survived.

Same with Hamburg, Wolfsburg or Duisburg in Germany getting a nuke while deserving targets like Berlin, Frankfurt and Munic got of lightly


As for the Belgian chocolate: They might build weapons that equal german ones in Herstal but they can't make sweets anywhere that match Niederegger in Lübeck or Coppenrath-Wiese in Westerkappeln(2)

(1) I consider Challenge articles on the GDW systems canon

(2) Granted, I am biased on the latter, parts of the family are backers/conditors there

 

[deadlock]

Chester/West Chester would catch a nuke as well because of Boeing and the plant that produces military helicopter parts.

Also nuked:
</font>

• Philadelphia (oil refinery)</font>
• Northern Midwestern states at random. There is more than wheat in those fields.</font>
• NORAD (whoever takes it down will have bragging rights).</font>
• Cape Canaveral and Houston (airfield used by the military in an emergency)</font>
• Dover Air Force Base (if someone really wanted to hurt our heavy lift capacity...) I actually ran a small campaign in Delaware where the PCs were civilians (police officer, trucker, college professor, paramedic, and a convict) and were close to DAFB when the dirty boms went off.</font>

 

[bryan gibson]

america circa T2000 would look a LOT like a movie, The Postman. Not addressing Costner, the movies situation and setting are VERY good examples of what america would be like post wear.

If there were invaders, I would almost imagine Canadqa being involved, simply to quell the rampant warlpords and maruading.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by kafka47:
If I recall correctly not all industry was destroyed in the US. Rather, just industries that were related to war & oil production. Concievably, which is why the North got whacked so bad, but places like NYC might actually be up & running.

I think the module that looked at NYC was titled 'Armies of the Night' - it was a lot closer to 'Escape from New York' than a functional city. [There was even a character called 'the Duke'!] No large places to grow food, marauders, harbour pirates, lots of fun stuff to throw at player characters. There were a few islands of civilization, but all-in-all post apocalyptic NYC was not a nice place.

As for Canadian involvement - I'd suggest it would partially depend upon population density, and referee dictates of course. If the motorcycle-borne marauders are going to storm across the border and grab stuff, they'd have better targets in the eastern half of the country as opposed to the west.

 

[Laryssa]

Originally posted by kafka47:
If I recall correctly not all industry was destroyed in the US. Rather, just industries that were related to war & oil production. Concievably, which is why the North got whacked so bad, but places like NYC might actually be up & running.

In terms of chocolates...the Belgians already have it covered.

Well, NYC is the headquarters of the UN. Wouldn't want to kill off the Soviet Ambassador, would we. I think the UN would be a valuable asset to leave in place.

 

[kafka47]

My thought was not for Canadian invaders across the West but convoys of aid which was implied in the 2300AD Foundation section. Naturally, it could come with a constabulary of Royal Engineers and the RCMP extending their reach. For who is to say where the border is and is not in an Aftermath world? If Canadian supplies are being attacked, and there is nothing above a milita willing to protect it, then naturally, one might call upon a higher power in the name of humanitarian relief.

BTW, I could just see how the Quebec motocycle gangs would have a field day in the Northern states.

 

[jcrocker]

Oh, I thought you meant American motorcycle marauders invading Western Canada and finding -

...lots of empty space.

In an old Challenge magazine [33? 32? I'd have to dig them out again - yay!] they had an article, I think it was Canada: 2000 that did a timeline for the nation. They had supply columns from the Alberta Farmers Cooperative moving into Ontario in fairly short order, and then down into at least Montana. It also stated that the biggest barriers to reconstruction were 'political' - [presumably the different 'Federal Governments' plus Quebec that the nation had broken into*] and if politics were the 'biggest problem' then the pace of reconstruction should be as quick as you can get in a nations that's been nuked, starved, and subject to EMPs.

[*Either that, or everyone was arguing over 'is reconstruction a federal or provincial responsibility?' Canadian political humour. Trust me, it's funny here...]

 

[deadlock]

That would make sense in light of what Canada said after 9/11 about the US coming to everyone's aid and the US not even getting spit on by those who call themselves friends and allies.

 

[mike wightman]

[moderator]Any more real world politics and this thread is gone.[/moderator]

 

[Jamus]

sorry mod..

I guess ww3 will be caused by orcs launching a nukuloid bmd powered by the one ring...

heaven forbid we mention real world politics in a thread discussing possible causes and effects of ww3.

 

[tomcusworth]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Which is why I was speculating on a Middle Power invasion attempt to go over and test the waters, if you like. The world wide shortage of oil would not stop a major uranium supplier country like South Africa nor really stop the Chinese coastal cities.

Sorry to jump in on this one at so late a stage. South Africa would have a hell of a job keeping the other African nations on its borders from harrassing it. Look at the political situation in Africa in recent years. At any one time, you have any number of civil wars, inter-nation conflicts, acts of genocide. Given global chaos a 3rd World War would bring; the absence of anyone in the "global policeman" role - I doubt that the RSA would be doing anything more than shutting its borders and hanging onto its resources.

As for China.... Who the hell knows?

-Tom

 

[Jamus]

SA white seperatists<sp> would maybe unleash some nasty chemo or bio weapons.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Jamus:
sorry mod..

I guess ww3 will be caused by orcs launching a nukuloid bmd powered by the one ring...

heaven forbid we mention real world politics in a thread discussing possible causes and effects of ww3.

T2000 is set in a hypothetical past with hypothetical politics.
Any version of T2020+ will also be hypothetical politics.
Not a problem.

Mentioning a real world political "hot potato" that offends many, upsets even more, and has no bearing on the game is a no-no.

So is mod baiting

 

[Jamus]

Ignoring basic realities when creating a background set in the real world should also be a no no.

I can only think of two groups that ever played t2000 back in the day and both changed the back ground to one degree or another because the one written in the book makes no sense.

If persons are hyper sensitive or overly PC then perhaps the whole WW3 thing should not be discussed as it is impossible to do so without offending someone or someones nationality regardless of which scenario one subscribes to.

Unless we intend to use fantastical nations or set the game so far into the future than the creator has free rein.

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

My apologies, Sigg.

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Jamus:
Ignoring basic realities when creating a background set in the real world should also be a no no.

I can only think of two groups that ever played t2000 back in the day and both changed the back ground to one degree or another because the one written in the book makes no sense.

If persons are hyper sensitive or overly PC then perhaps the whole WW3 thing should not be discussed as it is impossible to do so without offending someone or someones nationality regardless of which scenario one subscribes to.

Unless we intend to use fantastical nations or set the game so far into the future than the creator has free rein.

If you have problem with this thing called "suspension of disbelief", that is your problem, not ours. Play a different game then, or create your own, and stop pissing on the game we play.

As for myself, as long as the published materials and the Referee make it interesting enough, I´d roleplay Sweden invading Switzerland to steal the Toblerone recipe. And that´s even though I can´t stand Toblerone, myself.

 

[Border Reiver]

Twilight 2000 was (and is) SCIENCE FICTION or if you prefer SPECULATIVE FICTION. It belongs with the same genre that produced The Shape of Things to Come, Red Storm Rising, Starship Troopers, Mote in God's Eye and every book of future conflict ever written. It was a speculative fantasy based on an 80's model of international relations.

When it was written it was pure fantasy, most if not all of its history seemed unlikely yet possible. I've seen numerous people bitch about France couldn't survive intact (they didn't just survived better than most) yet no-one criticizes the act of German reunification. Both are essential to the meta plot and back in 84 both seemed unlikely (France was becoming more involved with NATO and Osti oppression was at its height).

The new Twilight fails to live up to its predecessor by being firmly set in the present (7 years ahead instead of 16), fighting in Kurdistan. There appears to be a time frame set 9 months after nukes start flying. Of course there is no evidence of this being final as Studio 93 are keeping their cards firmly to their chest. Much like the original storyline this will be shaped by the author's prejudices and politics, nothing to do with realism.

 

[mbrinkhues]

I freely admit that I base my T2K games on the "Red Storm Rising with nukes" idea than on the classic timeline. After the NATO counterthrust stops the Red Army, tactical nukes fly on both sides followd by a limited tactical exchange

While I have little problems with France keeping somewhat out of the game until the nuke part(1) (They where not a full NATO member back than, their ports still got nukes in game) I have my problems with Italy invading (hard to cross the Alps driving backwards ) or Germany trying to invade Poland after learning how much Re-Unification of a WILLING populace costs. Importing all those Bananas back in 1989 was bad for german finances

(1)After the nukes, France WILL join IMHO