Is it time for Jump-7 drives in Traveller?
- Thread starter Shonner
- Start date
Marc's already decided J7+ can be done... in T5. J100 with ±6 Pc accuracy good enough?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
What's the point of just going up by 1?
The next generation of jump drives should be capable of 'controlled misjump' performance, 1-36 parsecs range.
The next generation of jump drives should be capable of 'controlled misjump' performance, 1-36 parsecs range.
shadowcat20
SOC-12
Jump drive 7 would be at least tech 16. Then you get into disruptors, possably anti matter and all other types of weirdness. We get J7 then THEY are gonna want antimatter drives. That will make THEM want to forgo fuel tankage space because of the new power plants. It goes downhill from there....
. I think J7 should be a rare non PC event.
But then I still like playing with black powder guns and make dark ages armor for a hobby...:devil:
. I think J7 should be a rare non PC event.But then I still like playing with black powder guns and make dark ages armor for a hobby...:devil:
IMTU I've never seen any reason for any arbitrary limit to jump drives. The ones provided by the absence of TL16 and the need for 70% fuel has kept jump-7 from being practical before 1100. There are rumors that the Old Darrians had a few prototype jump-7 ships and also rumors that the Imeprium has a few new ones in service, either already or Real Soon Now, but except in a few cases, the practical use for jump-7 isn't great.
Now, if you combined a jump-7 drive with drop tanks, you might have something with practical application. Somebody may be working on that this very moment...
Hans
Now, if you combined a jump-7 drive with drop tanks, you might have something with practical application. Somebody may be working on that this very moment...
Hans
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Like Hans, I've always thought the arbitrary limit was silly, and I houseruled it away IMTU decades ago.
If you take a look at the CT LBB5 construction rules, you'll see that it has a natural limit at J-8, since J-9 leaves zero payload tonnage.
If you bring in J-7 at TL16 (State-of-the-art Imperial?) and J-8 at TL17, it runs out of steam just nicely (according to LBB3) for the next generation of drives to use Antimatter.
I couldn't ignore that level of coincidence.
If you take a look at the CT LBB5 construction rules, you'll see that it has a natural limit at J-8, since J-9 leaves zero payload tonnage.
If you bring in J-7 at TL16 (State-of-the-art Imperial?) and J-8 at TL17, it runs out of steam just nicely (according to LBB3) for the next generation of drives to use Antimatter.
I couldn't ignore that level of coincidence.
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
as others have pointed out, the nature of the jump rules means that unless a major breakthough in either fuel effeciency or fuel energy desenity (i.e. a engine that burns less H2, or uses antimatter), then getting much higher than J-8 is not really possible.
I like the idea of J-8 "priority" x-boat circuit, though. maybe as a high-speed spine running form capital to two or three points along the frontier (like, say out to the Marches, to Earth, and mabye one to either the boarders nearest hiver or K'kree space. mainly to the zhodani and solomani borders, though,as those ar the two "hot" ones). since it would litteraz halve the message time, it would really make a difference, plus it could just use the existing X-boat stops, and just skip half of them....
what i always saw as limiting was the 6 G manuver drive limit, though. I can see that the games mechanics make very high jump numbers prohibitivly costly, but not why ships could not reach accellerations beyond 6G.
I like the idea of J-8 "priority" x-boat circuit, though. maybe as a high-speed spine running form capital to two or three points along the frontier (like, say out to the Marches, to Earth, and mabye one to either the boarders nearest hiver or K'kree space. mainly to the zhodani and solomani borders, though,as those ar the two "hot" ones). since it would litteraz halve the message time, it would really make a difference, plus it could just use the existing X-boat stops, and just skip half of them....
what i always saw as limiting was the 6 G manuver drive limit, though. I can see that the games mechanics make very high jump numbers prohibitivly costly, but not why ships could not reach accellerations beyond 6G.
Does Marc propose a 'Next Generation' Jump Drive Technology that has completely different fuel requirements?
Does he perfect Drop Tank technology?
How does he sidestep the well established need for greater than 100% jump fuel at J10+?
For what it is worth, the concept of a 200 dT J100 starship with a 2000 dT drop tank sounds just plain bizarre to me.
I agree to an extent.
IMTU, I just matched inertial compensation to the Jump Number-TL progression. So a TL 15 ship will negate 6G of acceleration on the occupants. The maximum G the ship can withstand follows the MD Gee rating progression.
This allows ships capable of short bursts (with crew restraints and before Loss of Conciousness), but restricts them to 'special purpose' designs. Gee suits would allow the crew to endure 2G beyond the ship's compensation limit for hours and total immersion (think living in a tank of water) would allow the crew to endure 10G beyond the ship's compensation limit [16 G at TL 15].
shadowcat20
SOC-12
OK, was looking through my new copy of T5 last night. Jump 7 comes along at Tech 17 with anti matter drives. Then there is hop (JX10) and skip (JX100) drives..... I guess J7 is ok if you do not monkey with fuel requirements. When people try to change that then things can get screwy.
I guess J7 is ok if you do not monkey with fuel requirements. When people try to change that then things can get screwy.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Once you get Skip Drives the entire galaxy will be inhabited in short order, about 1-2 thousand years according to Issac Asimov per his Foundation stories. I wonder if that has been considered by Marc (there should be a note to the effect on the game when Skip Drives are introduced, imo of course) and those seeking (or using) much faster or farther reaching drives?
Unless... are Skip Drives limited to just that performance? That is, only J100 and not any fraction of? It might make the difference between all of the galaxy being settled or just pockets of it
Unless... are Skip Drives limited to just that performance? That is, only J100 and not any fraction of? It might make the difference between all of the galaxy being settled or just pockets of it
The answers to those are in T5... And the TL's have the potential to shatter canon into shards. But explain Grandfather's ability to meddle.
From a purely referee-ing point of view, higher jump numbers and/or reduced fuel consumption will make the referee's job a 'bit' tougher; more preparation is needed by the ref (or he/she has to have a good amount of background material ready) for when the players go (or try to go) somewhere for which the ref is not set up yet.
Personally I like the J-6 limit, though the fuel requirements (both for Jump Drives and Power Plants) has always been a sore spot with me. As long as there is consistency with the universe's physics and background, though, it's all good.
IMTU, I run in a slightly later 'Classic Era' (1118) using GURPS [my gamers use GURPS almost exclusively, alas], though I am throwing in a 'few' changes now: the Imperium is being broken up, though by Archduke Norris' designs (he has a running feud with the Core Vilani nobility, and sees Vilani culture and outlook as a severe drain and limitation on human and social development). There will also soon be a major TL 16 breakthrough: a Jump Fuel regulator which reduces fuel consumption for Jump Drives by 50%.
It's a LOT of work getting ready for this, but worth it. And everyone is having fun so far, which is of course the whole point.
Personally I like the J-6 limit, though the fuel requirements (both for Jump Drives and Power Plants) has always been a sore spot with me. As long as there is consistency with the universe's physics and background, though, it's all good.
IMTU, I run in a slightly later 'Classic Era' (1118) using GURPS [my gamers use GURPS almost exclusively, alas], though I am throwing in a 'few' changes now: the Imperium is being broken up, though by Archduke Norris' designs (he has a running feud with the Core Vilani nobility, and sees Vilani culture and outlook as a severe drain and limitation on human and social development). There will also soon be a major TL 16 breakthrough: a Jump Fuel regulator which reduces fuel consumption for Jump Drives by 50%.
It's a LOT of work getting ready for this, but worth it. And everyone is having fun so far, which is of course the whole point.
No, I don't think mainstay Traveller needs faster than Jump-6 drives. Just as we don't know how to Jump now or even better someone schooled in Newtonian mechanics. The possibilities of beyond Jump 6 would require scientists take all that they know about the existing universe and throw it out the window. So, yes, there are many suggestions. But, Traveller should offer these as possibilities just like how Mongoose and an earlier GURPS article suggests - and leave them for the civilizations of Antiquity. A rule that I have broken but lightly by restricting knowledge.
I don't care for higher-than-Jump-6. Different ways to get around are OK, as long as they treat Traveller's timeline gently. Yeah, T5 has Jump7-8-9 at high TLs, but I really don't care for them. Hop and Skip drives might be interesting, again if they don't destroy the setting, but also I don't really know anything about the settings where those drives might exist. I'm pretty firmly ensconced in 1100 Regina subsector.
My point is that you don't need to make jump-7 impossible in order to preserve the Third Imperium timeline perfectly. All you need is to say "there's nothing theoretically impossible about jump-7, but no one has figured out how to do it yet" and you're home free.
Even, "jump-7 is possible and a few secret prototype jump-7 vessels exist" wouldn't make enough of a difference to notice.
Even in the far far future where some worlds had achieved solid dependable jump-7 technology, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. So you can do jump-7 instead of jump-6? What's the big difference? Every incremental increase in jump capability makes less of a difference. Jump-1 to jump-2 makes a huge difference. Jump-6 to jump-7, not so much.
Hans
shadowcat20
SOC-12
From a merchant point of view anything higher than J3 gets expensive to do. Lots of fuel for little cargo. By J5 or higher you have to be financed by a government or corp to afford it. You have to make your money moving important people or information. Cargo is no longer an option...At least not the lawful kind...
You have to charge a higher per-parsec price than jump-3 costs, so you're reduced to time-critical cargoes. But I don't see what that has got to do with the financing. If there's a market, financing will be available.From a merchant point of view anything higher than J3 gets expensive to do. Lots of fuel for little cargo. By J5 or higher you have to be financed by a government or corp to afford it. You have to make your money moving important people or information. Cargo is no longer an option...At least not the lawful kind...
Jump-6 costs about four times more per parsec than jump-3 (Depending on various ship-building assumptions). I haven't worked out the cost of jump-7, but it will be a lot more expensive than even jump-6, as effective payload really goes down fast at that end. Unless, that is, you're using drop tanks. If you do, jump-7 is only going to be a bit more expensive than (drop tank using) jump-6 and probably perfectly feasible.
Hans
shadowcat20
SOC-12
At least until overhaul time. You are going to need skilled techs to check out the drive..if they can. You will need a A class starport at a higher tech world to have any hope of finding skilled enough mechs. Jump tanks are throw away for the most part so you will have more expense there. Then parts for the High Tech drive will be much more expensive than normal parts.
As for time sensitive cargos, sometimes it is difficult to get enough of anything to fill your holds. Who can afford to be picky? This brings us back to needing a Sugar Daddy to keep you in cash, or at least keeping the cargo coming for you.
Everyone wants to use jump tanks, but they fall free before you jump so cause a space hazard until recovered. There may be a recovery fee attatched to the use of them or a littering fee if they get left behind. Then whose fault is it if they cause damage to another ship floating about out there?
Just throwing out a bunch of plot hooks here.
As for time sensitive cargos, sometimes it is difficult to get enough of anything to fill your holds. Who can afford to be picky? This brings us back to needing a Sugar Daddy to keep you in cash, or at least keeping the cargo coming for you.
Everyone wants to use jump tanks, but they fall free before you jump so cause a space hazard until recovered. There may be a recovery fee attatched to the use of them or a littering fee if they get left behind. Then whose fault is it if they cause damage to another ship floating about out there?
Just throwing out a bunch of plot hooks here.
Obviously I'm assuming a situation where the technology has become as mature as jump-6 is in the Classic Era. That would make it possible to get your annual maintenance at any class A and B starport.
Sure, but it will be peanuts compared to the gains. Changing your effective payload from a couple of percentage points to seventy-odd percentage points will increase your revenue-earning capacity by a factor 20-30. You'd need some implausibly large added expenses to offset that.
They might, but there's no reason to believe that this would be the case. The per-ton cost of jump drives is the same for jump-1 through jump-6. Why should the cost of jump-7 suddenly break that pattern?
It's difficult for a free trader to fill its holds. A company that invests in a jump-7 ship (in any ship for that matter) will have some reason to believe that it can fill its hold on a regular basis. Otherwise it wouldn't make the investment.
So you add the cost of the recovery. Or you move to 110 diameters before jumping out, making the 100 diameter limit safe for incoming ships (outgoing ships can just detect the tanks and avoid them).
Hans
