Is it time for Jump-7 drives in Traveller?

[aramis]

Jump 6 in the classic era is hardly "Mature"... I'll grant it's not "bleeding edge," but it's not the fleet speed, either (J5 is). It's the elite drive in the 1100-1250 time range.

Especially, given the ca 1100 development of drop tanks, followed by the 5FW, the 2nd CW, and Virus, mature drop-tank-route J6 just isn't on the radar.

In the GTU, I would expect someone to start up a couple J6 routes that way... probably one of the megacorps... that leaks out, and soon is readily replicated on any number of profitable routes... probably around 1120 or so.

 

[ShapeShifter]

The Imperial Authorities only want you civilians to think J6 is the limit.
Meanwhile, Spaceman Spiff has had a gigaparsec drive for some years now! ZOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!! The only problem is that any craft with such a powerful drive crash-lands on every third desert world. :rofl:

 

[rancke]

Jump 6 in the classic era is hardly "Mature"...

It's over a century old by 1105. How can it possibly NOT be mature?

I'll grant it's not "bleeding edge," but it's not the fleet speed, either (J5 is). It's the elite drive in the 1100-1250 time range.

Fleet speed is J3 or J4 if the fleet includes any battleships. Cruisers are J5. Fleet Couriers are J6. That has nothing to do with how mature the technology is but with the various tradeoffs inherent in starship construction.

Especially, given the ca 1100 development of drop tanks, followed by the 5FW, the 2nd CW, and Virus, mature drop-tank-route J6 just isn't on the radar.

Drop tank technology is certainly not mature in 1105. It's only a couple of decades old by then (and receives a severe setback in the Marches from the Trimkhana Brilliance disaster). If you tell me a drop tank ship can't get an annual maintenance from just any class A or B starport, I'll believe you. Still, drop tank service has reached Rhylanor by 1105 and I'm perfectly sure that Tukera has made sure its drop tank liners can have its annual maintenance performed somewhere before they open up a new route.

In the GTU, I would expect someone to start up a couple J6 routes that way... probably one of the megacorps... that leaks out, and soon is readily replicated on any number of profitable routes... probably around 1120 or so.

In the OTU Tukera has started more than a couple by 1105. If the technology was developed in the core and Tukera is opening a route to Regina, it's logical to assume that there's similar service all the way out from the core.


Hans

 

[Frankymole]

I don't care for higher-than-Jump-6. Different ways to get around are OK, as long as they treat Traveller's timeline gently. Yeah, T5 has Jump7-8-9 at high TLs, but I really don't care for them. Hop and Skip drives might be interesting, again if they don't destroy the setting, but also I don't really know anything about the settings where those drives might exist. I'm pretty firmly ensconced in 1100 Regina subsector.

I always had fun with the alternative Slower-Than_light drives in Challenge magazine (etc), and there are some interesting drives in SF games and literature.

Two extremely rare/experimental drives, above normal TLs, that I might consider to 'jump start' (heh) an exploration campaign/adventure in distant regions beyond charted space:

a. Jump Space Institute and Navy project developing a base-sized, one-use hyperspace "projector" which will drive a ship - not a ship-borne drive, so when the craft and crew (maybe mostly robots with a few highly-skilled robot/systems technicians and scientists) are sent off like a hyperspatial bullet from a "gun", they need to survey systems near their exit point and find refuelling points to use normal drives to get home to charted space to report. Perhaps a specified misjump which might allow more ships to be sent in a fleet (they could all convene on the furthest system?).

b. Similar to above but intergalactic range, maybe using the "gateway" tech above TL15 mentioned in early CT books. An indefinite-length journey and aimed roughly at (say) the Large Magellanic Cloud or Andromeda (or anything in between), precipitated out of hyperspace similar to a jump-drive ship being precipitated out if a planetary mass comes within 10 diameters. Great scope for exploring a new galaxy - little to no scope of ever coming home. Works best for 3D campaign maps so that it can be launched from near the edge of our galactic disk.

These would probably be one-way journeys, and option (b) would probably be a single hyperdrive ship since it is unlikely any others would be able to accurately home in on the same part of the target galaxy. Great for explorers, not so great for merchants and other careers...

 

[aramis]

In the OTU Tukera has started more than a couple by 1105. If the technology was developed in the core and Tukera is opening a route to Regina, it's logical to assume that there's similar service all the way out from the core.


Hans

When in the hell do you get the idea that tukera has drop-tank-j6 runs?

 

[atpollard]

When in the hell do you get the idea that tukera has drop-tank-j6 runs?

JTAS News Flashes.

... but didn't they try setting up a run, but the ship blew up.
(I read that a LONG time ago).

And watch your tone Mr. Moderator

 

[rancke]

When in the hell do you get the idea that tukera has drop-tank-j6 runs?

097-1105 Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A)

By TNS Staff Writer

Officials of the General Shipyards on Regina announced that it has completed negotiations with Tukera Lines to locally manufacture L-Hyd drop tanks for use on high-capacity commercial vessels. General will assemble components at its more modern facilities on Pixie (0303-A1001030-D). The first production examples are expected to be available within six months, at which time Tukera Lines will begin high capacity service from the interior. Component assembly will be carried out at General's more modern facilities on Pixie (0303-A100103-D).

L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor engineering, a joint press release explained.​

Also:

"The lounge is already occupied by the passengers and crew of the Trimkhana Brilliance, a fancy jump-6 liner that just arrived from Rhylanor (2716) via Heroni (2521) and docked a little while ago." [A Festive Occasion] D)​

Though I don't rely on the second reference; the first one should be evidence enough.


Hans

 

[rancke]

JTAS News Flashes.

... but didn't they try setting up a run, but the ship blew up.
(I read that a LONG time ago).

Yes, they did. They tried to extend service from the interior to Regina. The Trimkhana Brilliance had a spectacular disaster. The link to Regina was closed down. What happened to the other links that led all the way back to the interior is not mentioned.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Yes, they did. They tried to extend service from the interior to Regina. The Trimkhana Brilliance had a spectacular disaster. The link to Regina was closed down. What happened to the other links that led all the way back to the interior is not mentioned.


Hans

Very Cool.
Commercial Drop Tanks ... Not just a theory any more.

 

[robject]

My point is that you don't need to make jump-7 impossible in order to preserve the Third Imperium timeline perfectly. All you need is to say "there's nothing theoretically impossible about jump-7, but no one has figured out how to do it yet" and you're home free.

Even, "jump-7 is possible and a few secret prototype jump-7 vessels exist" wouldn't make enough of a difference to notice.

Even in the far far future where some worlds had achieved solid dependable jump-7 technology, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. So you can do jump-7 instead of jump-6? What's the big difference? Every incremental increase in jump capability makes less of a difference. Jump-1 to jump-2 makes a huge difference. Jump-6 to jump-7, not so much.


Hans

I agree with you 100%. I'm not totally against it; I'll tolerate it; I just don't care for it.

 

[Icosahedron]

These would probably be one-way journeys, and option (b) would probably be a single hyperdrive ship since it is unlikely any others would be able to accurately home in on the same part of the target galaxy. Great for explorers, not so great for merchants and other careers...

Hmm, human nature might be up for that, but I think it would be far more likely (based on the history of spaceflight) that those guys wouldn't be sent out unless there was half a chance of them coming home - what would be the point when whatever discoveries they signal back from Andromeda wouldn't be received for a couple of million years?

More likely, the ships they sent out would carry the components to construct another gun/gate at the far end. Maybe all the components wouldn't fit on one ship and there could be quite an adventure hook around the ships finding each other so they can assemble the device to get them home.

 

[Frankymole]

Hmm, human nature might be up for that, but I think it would be far more likely (based on the history of spaceflight) that those guys wouldn't be sent out unless there was half a chance of them coming home - what would be the point when whatever discoveries they signal back from Andromeda wouldn't be received for a couple of million years?

Colony seed? In case the Galaxy goes Seyfert (probably unnanounced), or the Empress Wave/Primordials show up... or some other contingency/emergency they didn't expect (I won't mention Virus...) - although to be fair it is more likely to be Aslan doing this (new lands), and think how it would improve their self-esteem regarding their (lack of) Jump-discovering Major Race status...!

The "living in a pickle barrel for generations" slower-than-light one-way colonisers (even if aided by Low Berths) like those who left Terra before the discovery of J-drive (Trillion Credit Squadron etc) had the right stuff.

The return gate is a good idea, obviously - at least the hope of one; if we don't let it turn into "Star Trek Voyager". I like your 'gun parts' adventure seed.

Of course it may be 'useful' to create a stable "hyperjump" route that works both ways from one source (here), but with the risk that something unwanted might come through from the galaxy at the other end... and the adventurers would have to get back to it from their explorations before it closed, too.

 

[Cryton]

Everyone wants to use jump tanks, but they fall free before you jump so cause a space hazard until recovered. There may be a recovery fee attatched to the use of them or a littering fee if they get left behind. Then whose fault is it if they cause damage to another ship floating about out there?

Collapsible Jumptanks. Expandable external fuel bladders that hold the fuel until its consumed and deflate as it is used prior to jump. This would probably require a subcraft of some sort to do the ships fuel skimming though. In the versions of Traveller where the technology exists to use fuel-bladder technology to convert cargo space to fuel storage, why not apply it as external collapsible jump tanks? Seems like a good answer to me, and you wont get fined for littering.

 

[atpollard]

I always liked the idea of a 'drop hose' instead of a 'drop tank' - a big tanker ship sits a 'safe' distance from the jump point (about as far as a ship would need to be from a drop tank to safely enter jumpspace) and just retracts the hose instead of 'droping the tank'. At worst case, you loose a kilometer of inexpensive hose at each jump (500 PSI hose looks to cost about 1 credit per meter or 1000 credits per kilometer).

 

[rancke]

Collapsible Jumptanks. Expandable external fuel bladders that hold the fuel until its consumed and deflate as it is used prior to jump. This would probably require a subcraft of some sort to do the ships fuel skimming though. In the versions of Traveller where the technology exists to use fuel-bladder technology to convert cargo space to fuel storage, why not apply it as external collapsible jump tanks? Seems like a good answer to me, and you wont get fined for littering.

For some reason (and don't ask me why; the rules just say it is so, not why) collapsible tanks can't be used to feed a jump drive directly, even if they're installed internally (You can carry along extra fuel and transfer it to the regular tanks when you've emptied them). Presumably they won't work as exterior tanks either. It's certainly not presented as an option in the ship design rules.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I always liked the idea of a 'drop hose' instead of a 'drop tank' - a big tanker ship sits a 'safe' distance from the jump point (about as far as a ship would need to be from a drop tank to safely enter jumpspace) and just retracts the hose instead of 'droping the tank'. At worst case, you loose a kilometer of inexpensive hose at each jump (500 PSI hose looks to cost about 1 credit per meter or 1000 credits per kilometer).

You'll need more than that.... you need 100 of its diameters. If it's big enough to be useful, it's gonna be 50+ meters across... and thus need 5km+ of hose. Since you're not pumping against gravity, not that hard, but it's cryogenics hose (which is going to be more Cr and less flex), and it needs to swing away from the jumping vessel clear of the jumping vessel's 100 diameter range (to avoid being damaged itself).

 

[shadowcat20]

In the LBBs internal tanks held fuel but were not hooked up to the feed system. After Jumping you had to pump fuel out of the internal tanks and put it in the normal tanks.

As for collaspible tanks maybe they need to be rigid to make sure the fuel feeds correctally. That way part of the tank does not get sucked into the feed line and block things? Keep in mind we are storing Lhyd so there have to be chiller units in the tank also.

 

[Rover]

Two points,

Wouldn't dropped external tanks become salvage? My guess is, if there was any value to the tanks to reuse, refurbish or recycle them some entrepreneur would be out there scavenging these?

If collapsible tanks were sold as an after-market afterthought upgrade I could understand not allowing them as jump fuel. If a ship was designed specifically to use collapsible tanks, I would allow it. Maybe adding 5% to the volume of the tank to cover additional pumps and plumbing. Maybe 10% if such a tank had to be retrofitted into a standard design. Considering the limitations of jumping in Traveller I would expect such modifications would be common.

R

 

[TashaG]

Wasn't there some mention in the LBB about some starports renting drop tanks to those so inclined?

I have read in other places that drop tanks tend to be shredded by being too close to the jumping ship. So it may be canonically impractical to rent tanks.

 

[aramis]

Wasn't there some mention in the LBB about some starports renting drop tanks to those so inclined?

I have read in other places that drop tanks tend to be shredded by being too close to the jumping ship. So it may be canonically impractical to rent tanks.

Depends upon which edition.

In MGT, it's explicit that pre-TL15 tanks have a significant change of being destroyed.