Is Marc open to any Traveller related computer games?
- Thread starter sbrengard
- Start date
Software development is time consuming. There is little other actual inherent cost. Which is quite misleading in practicality - as most need or want to be compensated financially for their time.
Modern game development only has a portion of its overall costs attributed to actual software development. It's a notable portion, but not the majority any more.
Most of the money goes in to asset (graphics, 3D models, motion capture, music, voice acting, writing) development, especially for games that use off the shelf engines for a majority of the mechanics.
Completely correct! And if I might add...
Let's not forget Marketing (a big chunk), facilities (doing everything remote is a complexity), application development tools and systems, support staff (any legal, cleaning crews, testers...the list continues).
Game Development is a Subset of Applications Development. Applications Development on a Fortune 100 level is extremely expensive. It is one thing to write a few lines of code for a character development script, a few 3D graphics of a ship and a completely different level for getting hundreds of people working on a real-time financial system for a cellphone service provider.
Game Developers have been lucky because their staff has a passion for the work they're doing and are willing to put in excruciating hours keeping costs down. MMO's have been had some very serious cost burdens to consider.
When evaluating a Kickstarter campaigns I suggest being very realistic. See the amount of team experience and the talent they've worked with in the past. I recall someone wanted to do an iphone Traveller app. Cool but they said they ran out of money and halted the effort. Just saying....
Let's not forget Marketing (a big chunk), facilities (doing everything remote is a complexity), application development tools and systems, support staff (any legal, cleaning crews, testers...the list continues).
Game Development is a Subset of Applications Development. Applications Development on a Fortune 100 level is extremely expensive. It is one thing to write a few lines of code for a character development script, a few 3D graphics of a ship and a completely different level for getting hundreds of people working on a real-time financial system for a cellphone service provider.
Game Developers have been lucky because their staff has a passion for the work they're doing and are willing to put in excruciating hours keeping costs down. MMO's have been had some very serious cost burdens to consider.
When evaluating a Kickstarter campaigns I suggest being very realistic. See the amount of team experience and the talent they've worked with in the past. I recall someone wanted to do an iphone Traveller app. Cool but they said they ran out of money and halted the effort. Just saying....
I think there were a couple, one for a new game by the creator of Wing Commander, and another one, of which I will got "Duh" when I hear the name, but can not recall but it was a popular space sim in the day.
Kickstarter is interesting, and I think it's a fine tool for getting a "mostly finished" product to final production. I think it works great for things like T5, and other physical products -- where you're effectively pre-ordering the game, and maybe some extra, and helping the creator get the volumes needed for production.
I see this a lot in modeling, where companies will basically commit to finishing the creation of a model (like a scale train car or locomotive) if they can get the pre-orders to make it worth their while. The markets are finicky, and interactive enough, that it's not necessary to risk on product development when you can get the orders done up front to guarantee a return.
But software? Something as "intangible" as a game? Heck no.
Those don't need pre-orders, they need investors. If the games are successful, they'll be successful. I can't see how such companies can be ready to return their Kickstarter funds if they fail, or how they'll not simply "rush it out the door", incomplete, "under" finished, once the money is gone if they run in to issues (I know, who ever hears about software projects running in to issues that delay them).
Actual products have formidable manufacturing costs (packaging, tooling, minimum quantities for manufacture, etc.). So, taking a basically finished product and getting it produce is typically a low risk endeavor.
But software, once it's done, distribution is a matter of standing up a website, show less need of final capital (certainly some is involved, but most of the software Kickstarters simply are not at this stage of release -- they're not even in beta).
So, good luck to them, and their early adopters, but me, I'll wait.
Whartung, you've got a serious misinterpretation of the Kickstarter system...
Kickstarter participants are required to accept the risk that the product might not materialize as promised, or might not be as represented when the final form comes in the mail.
There is no recourse and no refund if the Kickstarter funds, but the beneficiary fails to produce, other than the individual getting massive negative press and possibly not being allowed to do another KS.
Remember: KS isn't a store. They're an investment vehicle.
KS doesn't charge until the project meets the funding goal.
They don't ever refund (tho' at least one developer has done so when the project went south, but not the whole amount) unless you establish it was card fraud.
Kickstarter participants are required to accept the risk that the product might not materialize as promised, or might not be as represented when the final form comes in the mail.
There is no recourse and no refund if the Kickstarter funds, but the beneficiary fails to produce, other than the individual getting massive negative press and possibly not being allowed to do another KS.
Remember: KS isn't a store. They're an investment vehicle.
KS doesn't charge until the project meets the funding goal.
They don't ever refund (tho' at least one developer has done so when the project went south, but not the whole amount) unless you establish it was card fraud.
game development
Aramis has a good point and Kickstarter is the popular tool of the moment. Most organizations I see on it have a team, example graphics, perhaps a demo, and a developed product plan. They have started and invested money in their product. I agree backing a kickstarter has risk but these are typically unfinished products in the planning or prototype stages. T5 for example, had a draft look, but needed serious analysis and work to review, edit and print. Music might be slightly different. They wrote 13 songs and one has been recorded in a professional studio as an example for the kickstarter people.
I agreed with your comments to BytePro. But also the complexity of Marketing and setting up the pieces for any product development are not simple. Most fail because they have not assessed a dependency and that risk is an impact or their schedule which was far too aggressive. I would not be suprised if most kickstarter projects do not get far beyond the initial backers.
Aramis has a good point and Kickstarter is the popular tool of the moment. Most organizations I see on it have a team, example graphics, perhaps a demo, and a developed product plan. They have started and invested money in their product. I agree backing a kickstarter has risk but these are typically unfinished products in the planning or prototype stages. T5 for example, had a draft look, but needed serious analysis and work to review, edit and print. Music might be slightly different. They wrote 13 songs and one has been recorded in a professional studio as an example for the kickstarter people.
I agreed with your comments to BytePro. But also the complexity of Marketing and setting up the pieces for any product development are not simple. Most fail because they have not assessed a dependency and that risk is an impact or their schedule which was far too aggressive. I would not be suprised if most kickstarter projects do not get far beyond the initial backers.
From the KS FAQ:
This suggests that they're on the hook to deliver Something. And anyone who has any experience with software knows the truth of the statement "It's what I asked for and not what I wanted." All of the features on a bullet list can be met, badly, and likely pass legal muster if the game ends up having to be rushed out in the end.
Yea, they keep saying that.
In reality it's a combination of a pre-order system (resulting in tangible goods) or a sponsorship/patronage system (get your name in the credits, invite to the launch gala).
And, this is all good -- I would simply point out that "investing" in a tangible product (such as T5 which effectively just needed to be printed and bound) is most likely a less risky investment than something intangible (a software product, a movie) which can have indefinite extent and very fluid goal posts.
That all said, I guess a game was announced and funded over $1M in 6 hours, but it was from a proven team, with a proven toolset coming back for a sequel. However, it also was stipulated that the executive producer is a) matching funds and b) will fund the project to completion, which is reassuring. (Of course he IS an investor, not merely a sponsor...)
The courts haven't been sympathetic... the few I've heard going to court have been mostly judicial nullification - case dismissed before trial for lack of standing, and one rumored jury nullification. Most people are only in for small claims levels anyway, so there's very little risk of substantiative suit.
Especially since several of them specifically do not promise the final product, only swag.
Kickstarter
The real point here is that a T5 MMO, Second Life style, or Single Player is not a simple undertaking.
I brought up kickstarter just to point out this new means of funding projects and what is being seen. This really has nothing to do with T5 software at the moment.
Both Aramis and Whartung are correct in their assessments of kickstarter projects. I have funded two (one is T5) and recommend a cautious evaluation of who your investing with or support. Like the stock market this is your money.
But SWAG can be fun!
The real point here is that a T5 MMO, Second Life style, or Single Player is not a simple undertaking.
I brought up kickstarter just to point out this new means of funding projects and what is being seen. This really has nothing to do with T5 software at the moment.
Both Aramis and Whartung are correct in their assessments of kickstarter projects. I have funded two (one is T5) and recommend a cautious evaluation of who your investing with or support. Like the stock market this is your money.
But SWAG can be fun!
Yes, but those things are frosting on the cake. Doesn't change the fact that software development takes time (and talent) and thus usually requires money.
Assets and marketing can be piss poor - and one can still have a usable product, just of lower quality and smaller market share. If, however, the critical path element - the development - is poor, the product can be unusable and never make it to market. One can publish a book despite all manner of errors - not generally so with software. Thus many software projects never see the light of day... after lots of delays and cost overruns.
BTW: There has been more than one licensed attempt at a Traveller MMO. A while back Mongoose announced a library product that never materialized. The creators of the MS-DOS games went belly up.
Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
I like these Vassal versions of the GDW boardgames that mycenae has designed. He has recently updated Snapshot and AZHL.
http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Azhanti_High_Lightning
http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Snapshot
I guess you wouldn't consider these computer games but they are computer gaming aides?
http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Azhanti_High_Lightning
http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Snapshot
I guess you wouldn't consider these computer games but they are computer gaming aides?
"Frosting" is content, and is just as important as code. Software design is not trivial, but even good software needs to be packaged for its target audience. This usually means sensible graphics and appropriate sound. And software designers are, generally, not graphic design artists or professional musicians. Some are, most are not.
