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CT Only: Jack of All Trades - A Discussion

- Jack of All Trades -


Of all the skills listed in the basic CT skill list, JOT is probably the most mis-understood. Because it is so misunderstood, there are tons of House Rules that alter the rule to some other vision of it.

And, as Traveller is written into other editions of the game, JOT seems to be changed with each edition.

The way I read the rule, and the way I think it is meant to be used, rules as written, is that the skill will benefit the character in two primary ways.

First Benefit of JOT - having JOT allows the character to use any skill listed in the basic CT skill list as if the character had the skill at Level-0. The benefit here is that the character will never suffer penalties for not having a skill.

Not all CT skills have penalties associated with them. There are a lot of throws in the game where skill is optional. But, there are also some clearly spelled out situations where not having a skill confers a penalty. If a character has JOT, then the character does not suffer that penalty when making a throw even if the character does not have the skill and would usually qualify to be penalized.

This is the primary benefit of JOT. The rule says, "Unskilled people have no idea how to even start many projects; jack of all trades can apply this to such a project as if he or she has this skill." Therefore, penalties do not apply.





Second Benefit of JOT - is that having the JOT skill allows the character to make a throw when usually the character would be barred from making the throw because the character lacks a required skill.

The rule says, "The jack of all trades skill can attempt activity which is not normally possible due to the absence of skills or referee."

But, also note that the Ref has final say as to when the JOT skill can be used. He is directed to consider the character's appropriate personal characteristics, availability of equipment, and environmental or situational factors (is it raining or foggy or too cold to manipulate the controls; is it too dark to see what the character is doing?).





Using JOT.

So, could JOT be used if a character wants to sign on as Pilot for a starship? No, because having JOT skill never confers expertise greater than Pilot-0.

But, the character could pilot the ship in a pinch if an emergency situation appears and the regular pilot is incapacitated.





What about JOT level?

If JOT never confers skill above Level-0, what's the use of a JOT skill level above JOT-1?

The character's JOT skill level is another factor that the Ref uses to decide whether the use of JOT applies to a situation.

For example, a 15+ throw is needed to detect that a valuable piece of art is a forgery. The throw is a standard roll of 2D, and DMs are +2 per level of Forgery skill.

Obviously, the piece of art is so well crafted that it takes a character with Forgery-2 or better to even have a chance of detecting the forgery. A character with JOT-2 could attempt the throw (the Ref allows him to succeed on a roll of 12 exactly), but the Ref will not allow a character with JOT-1 to attempt the throw.
 
There is no benefit to taking JoT at 2 or higher - your last suggestion is a good one but it falls into the house rule category.

I'm going to give it a try like this and see how it works out. :)
 
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Since I've used DGP's task system with CT since I first found it in TD issue 8... I prefer the DGP use, where it's how many "automatically pass determination to retry" you can make. At 3+, it's not worthless, but not entirely great. My guy with JOT 5 was actually kind of fun...
 
Since I've used DGP's task system with CT since I first found it in TD issue 8... I prefer the DGP use, where it's how many "automatically pass determination to retry" you can make. At 3+, it's not worthless, but not entirely great. My guy with JOT 5 was actually kind of fun...

I also like this use of JOT, as given in MT too (where I first read about it).

I don't see the automatic retry allowed by JOT as "automatically pass determination to retry", but as rerolling the failed dice roll. The main difference is that does not add time to the action.

As I see it, JOT, used this way, represents the use of unorthodox means when orthodox ones fail (or are not usable, be it for lack of knowledge, lack of materials or whatever the reason is). As such, I always made them as hazardous, as any such actions, as it represents patching instead of repairing, so to say.

IMHO, this use of the skill has some advantages when compared with reducing/avoiding non skilled penatlies:
  • each level of skill counts
  • does not make a high skill JOT character a superman (if used to reduce non-skilled penalties, higher enough level is as having each and every skill at 0, while this way you keep the non-skilled penalty when deserved, just giving more possibilities to succeed)
  • it's also usable in known skills (e.g. an engineer with JOT skill has advantage over one that has not it)

Off course, there are tasks where this is not usable (e.g. most combat actions, and most instantaneous ones)...
 
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RAW, the MT version is retries require progressively harder determination tasks to allow retrying. 1st is simple, 2nd routine, 3rd difficult, 4th formidable, 5th (nearly) impossible, 6th - auto-fail. JoT shifts all those numbers up by 1 per level, and explicitly does take time each time. not requiring the time makes it way too valuable.

I'll explain why:
Joe Normal 777777, Skill-for-work 1.
His brother, Jack, also 777777, skill-for-work 1, jack 1.
Has a simple task, DM is +2, he cannot fail to make the 3+. So, net fail, 0.
Routine task. Joe needs a natural 5+, which is a 6/36 fail chance. Jack has a 36/1296 fail chance; joe has a 2/36 chance of exceptional failure, and 1/36 chance of aggrivated exceptional failure. Jack, using your house rule, now has a 3/1296 chance of aggrivated fail, 4/1296 of exceptional fail, and 36/1296 (=1/36) chance of failure at all.
Difficult task; 11+ needed, so natural 9+. Joe, 26/36 chance of failure; jack, 696/1296 (~18.7/36) chance of failure. Joe exceptional fails 21/36, Jack 441/1296 (~12.25/36).

It's just too powerful to not make them take the extra time. (Note that Costs in parts ALSO are required on repeat attempts; your method doesn't sound like you would...)

RAW, Both Joe and Jack can always retry the first one unless they exceptional fail (because that may result in a mishap that prevents retry). Jack always gets to retry twice, once because of JoT, once because he cannot fail a Simple Determination, provided spares and time allow.

Jack 5... formidable task. 35/36 fail for Joe, 52521875/60466176 (about 31.27/36 chance of fail for Jack your way. with no increase in costs, time, etc. It's just a little too "Use the Force, Luke" for me.
 
There is no benefit to taking JoT at 2 or higher - your last suggestion is a good one but it falls into the house rule category.

I'm not sure about that...

That's why I started this discussion.

I posted more, but it doesn't look like the mods have gotten around to posting what I said yet.

The JOT rule is written strangely, but it does seem that there is some value in having higher JOT skills.

If my other post ever shows up, it should highlight that part.
 
- JOT Level -

The way I read it, JOT level does mean something.

The skill clearly states that JOT will never confer skill higher than Level-0. What I think that says is that you can't use JOT to get a job as a Pilot or use it to be a doctor.

If you look at the example that is written in the skill description, though, the JOT's level comes into play. The example uses JOT to replace Medical skill for an aging crisis. Medical skill level is applied to the 8+ throw as a DM.

Note that Medical skill is not required when making a throw for the Aging Crisis. Therefore, JOT is not needed just to make the throw. Anybody can make an 8+ throw for aging crisis with our without JOT skill.

The example is saying that JOT skill level is used just like a level in Medical would be used--as a DM to the 8+ aging crisis throw.





Therefore, having JOT does two things:

1 - It allows the character to avoid any penalties associated with not having one of the skills from the basic CT skill list.

2 - It allows the character to use the skill, with the skill level, in place of a skill the character does not have at the Ref's approval for one-time, emergency situations.

What the skill does not do is give the character permanent proficiency in any other skill above Level-0. But, for one-time throws, if the Ref approves, the character can use his JOT skill, with level, in place of another skill, for a one-time throw.

The Ref should consider the character's background, the situation, the appropriate characteristics, if any tools are needed, environmental conditions, and stuff like that when deciding if JOT can be applied to a throw.
 
RAW, the MT version is retries require progressively harder determination tasks to allow retrying. 1st is simple, 2nd routine, 3rd difficult, 4th formidable, 5th (nearly) impossible, 6th - auto-fail. JoT shifts all those numbers up by 1 per level, and explicitly does take time each time. not requiring the time makes it way too valuable.

Where is this explicited (at least for JOT use)?

The only thing I read, both in the JOT description (PM page 36) as in task descriptions (RM page 14) is that each level of JOT provides one free atempt. How do you interpret the world free in this sentence seems to be where we disagree...

I'll explain why:
Joe Normal 777777, Skill-for-work 1.
His brother, Jack, also 777777, skill-for-work 1, jack 1.
Has a simple task, DM is +2, he cannot fail to make the 3+. So, net fail, 0.
Routine task. Joe needs a natural 5+, which is a 6/36 fail chance. Jack has a 36/1296 fail chance; joe has a 2/36 chance of exceptional failure, and 1/36 chance of aggrivated exceptional failure. Jack, using your house rule, now has a 3/1296 chance of aggrivated fail, 4/1296 of exceptional fail, and 36/1296 (=1/36) chance of failure at all.
Difficult task; 11+ needed, so natural 9+. Joe, 26/36 chance of failure; jack, 696/1296 (~18.7/36) chance of failure. Joe exceptional fails 21/36, Jack 441/1296 (~12.25/36).

It's just too powerful to not make them take the extra time. (Note that Costs in parts ALSO are required on repeat attempts; your method doesn't sound like you would...)

RAW, Both Joe and Jack can always retry the first one unless they exceptional fail (because that may result in a mishap that prevents retry). Jack always gets to retry twice, once because of JoT, once because he cannot fail a Simple Determination, provided spares and time allow.

Jack 5... formidable task. 35/36 fail for Joe, 52521875/60466176 (about 31.27/36 chance of fail for Jack your way. with no increase in costs, time, etc. It's just a little too "Use the Force, Luke" for me.

Well, I understand JOT as "McGiver" (improvising capacity), so to say.

Let's imagine an engineer trying to fix a drive. He dismantles it, tries to fix it and fails to repair it (failed dice roll).

A normal retry would mean that after the time it usually would take to repair it, he understands he must start again. So (assuming he passes his determination), he keeps working more with the pieces (or dismantles again the drive) and looks for spares to fix it, taking again the time needed...

OTOH, as I see it, JOT rereoll means that when he finds a specific piece is missing (or broken, or failing), he thinks about something else that can sustitute it (as McGiver would do), not needing to start again. Of course, if this sustitute piece fails, it's more likly to fail in a more spectacular way (hence the hazardous), and, even if it works, it will not be a definitive fixing (as could a regular roll or retry be), but a temporary jury-rigging that works for now.
 
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Funny how some people can get away with stuff like this while the rest of us get snarky warnings... :devil: :CoW:

and yes I will be deleting this post really soon ;) probably :toast:
 
- JOT Level -

The way I read it, JOT level does mean something.

The skill clearly states that JOT will never confer skill higher than Level-0. What I think that says is that you can't use JOT to get a job as a Pilot or use it to be a doctor.

If you look at the example that is written in the skill description, though, the JOT's level comes into play. The example uses JOT to replace Medical skill for an aging crisis. Medical skill level is applied to the 8+ throw as a DM.

Note that Medical skill is not required when making a throw for the Aging Crisis. Therefore, JOT is not needed just to make the throw. Anybody can make an 8+ throw for aging crisis with our without JOT skill.

The example is saying that JOT skill level is used just like a level in Medical would be used--as a DM to the 8+ aging crisis throw.
I have just read and re-read the rule and I can not fault your logic...




Therefore, having JOT does two things:

1 - It allows the character to avoid any penalties associated with not having one of the skills from the basic CT skill list.

2 - It allows the character to use the skill, with the skill level, in place of a skill the character does not have at the Ref's approval for one-time, emergency situations.

What the skill does not do is give the character permanent proficiency in any other skill above Level-0. But, for one-time throws, if the Ref approves, the character can use his JOT skill, with level, in place of another skill, for a one-time throw.

The Ref should consider the character's background, the situation, the appropriate characteristics, if any tools are needed, environmental conditions, and stuff like that when deciding if JOT can be applied to a throw.
Consider me convinced.
 
Consider me convinced.

It is sure written confusingly. But, the only thing that makes sense is that JOT skill level is used one the one-time emergency throws.

It's up to the Ref to make sure that the character does not abuse the use of the JOT skill.

It's clearly possible to gain skill levels in JOT higher than JOT-1, so those levels must be useful for something.

What throws us off is the sentence that JOT can never confer a skill at higher than Skill-0.

So, basically, what JOT says is: JOT is a skill that gives the character Skill-0 expertise in all the basic skills from Book 1 so that the character can avoid any penalty for not having the skill, and it also allows the character to make throws at the full skill level of JOT, in place of required skill that the character does not have, at the Referee's discretion.




Example:

A bomb is going to explode. The timer is clicking down. The bomb requires Mechanical-2 or better skill to be dismantled. If the timer hits zero, then the thing is going to blow a hole in the side of the spacecraft hull and possibly render the jump drive useless due to the damage to the hull grid.

Tools are available on the ship to attempt the dismantling of the bomb, but no crewmember has Mechanical-2 skill.

One crewmember has JOT-1, but the Ref does not allow this character to make an emergency throw for the dismantle procedure. He doesn't know enough.

Another crewmember has JOT-3. But, the Ref does not allow this character to attempt to dismantle the bomb because the character has EDU 4. The Ref has decided that EDU 8+, along with JOT-2 or higher, is needed to dismantle the bomb.

A third crewmember has JOT-2 and EDU-9. Tools are available from engineering. This character is eligible to make the throw to dismantle the bomb.
 
All the task system (incluiding this use of JOT skill and the sentence I said about allowing free retries) is previous to MT, coming from TD issue 8. Does that count as being CT?

Threads do flow, with conversation, into new areas. It happens. I was just hoping to discuss this within the context of CT (and specifically, Books 1-3, Starter Traveller, or The Traveller Book).
 
- JOT Level -

The way I read it, JOT level does mean something.

The skill clearly states that JOT will never confer skill higher than Level-0. What I think that says is that you can't use JOT to get a job as a Pilot or use it to be a doctor.

If you look at the example that is written in the skill description, though, the JOT's level comes into play. The example uses JOT to replace Medical skill for an aging crisis. Medical skill level is applied to the 8+ throw as a DM.

Note that Medical skill is not required when making a throw for the Aging Crisis. Therefore, JOT is not needed just to make the throw. Anybody can make an 8+ throw for aging crisis with our without JOT skill.

The example is saying that JOT skill level is used just like a level in Medical would be used--as a DM to the 8+ aging crisis throw.

Wouldn't anyone without medical skil lbe subject to non-skilled penalty for this roll?. As I understand the explanation this is why JOT is useful in this case.

Therefore, having JOT does two things:

1 - It allows the character to avoid any penalties associated with not having one of the skills from the basic CT skill list.

2 - It allows the character to use the skill, with the skill level, in place of a skill the character does not have at the Ref's approval for one-time, emergency situations.

What the skill does not do is give the character permanent proficiency in any other skill above Level-0. But, for one-time throws, if the Ref approves, the character can use his JOT skill, with level, in place of another skill, for a one-time throw.

The Ref should consider the character's background, the situation, the appropriate characteristics, if any tools are needed, environmental conditions, and stuff like that when deciding if JOT can be applied to a throw.

As house rule, other uses for the JOT level could be:
  1. allow its use as many times as JOT level the carácter has per game sesión/adventure/whatever time extensión you choose
  2. make the carácter to roll for using it as skill 0 in any other skill (e.g. roll 10+, JOT as DM to be allowed to use the slpecific skill asked for without untrained penalty)
 
Wouldn't anyone without medical skil lbe subject to non-skilled penalty for this roll?. As I understand the explanation this is why JOT is useful in this case.

Not according to the Aging Crisis rules, on page 19 TTB. The roll is 8+ to avoid the crisis and becoming gravely ill. If a character with Medical skill makes the roll, then the Medical skill level is applied as a DM to the roll. But, Medical skill is not mandatory. If no character with Medical skill is available, the skill roll is simply 8+.

Which is why I think this example was chosen to express how the JOT skill works. If a character has JOT-2, then he can make the Aging Crisis roll with a +2 DM (the JOT skill substituting for the Medical skill), provided the Ref agrees that the character with JOT is capable and has the tools and equipment to help the patient. That same character with JOT-2, though, could not use his JOT skill to serve as Medic aboard a space vessel because JOT skill does not confer skill in an area above Skill-0.

In other words, the JOT-2 skill allows the character to act as if he had Medical-2 in this one instance, but the character is not considered to have Medical-2 all the time. He is considered to have Medical-0 all the time, though.

Note that Slow Drug (the drug used in the Aging Crisis example) does not require Medical expertise to use.

From a quick read of the Drugs chapter, the only drug that requires Medical skill is the Medical drug.
 
As house rule, other uses for the JOT level could be:
  1. allow its use as many times as JOT level the carácter has per game sesión/adventure/whatever time extensión you choose
  2. make the carácter to roll for using it as skill 0 in any other skill (e.g. roll 10+, JOT as DM to be allowed to use the slpecific skill asked for without untrained penalty)

What about this...

Players with characters who have the JOT skill will be trying to use that skill all the time. Make a quick roll to decide whether the skill can be used.

This way, the Ref isn't the bad guy, always saying, "No, you can't use JOT because...".


If you want to roll against skill, this would give some more weight to the character gaining skill levels in JOT.

Can JOT be used in a situation? Roll 1D looking for JOT skill or less.








Another idea.

Or, the Ref might make an appropriate stat roll.

Can JOT be used in a situation? Find a target number of Stat + JOT skill. Then roll 2D, 3D, or 4D for that number or less. Success means that JOT can be used. The Ref picks the difficulty, based on how likely he thinks it is that JOT should be used.

2D = Very Likely

3D = An Average Chance

4D = Not Likely

EDU is most often used on the roll, but the Ref may decide another stat is more appropriate.

Example:

The characters encounter an ancient alien computer. It takes a 10+ throw to access the computer's memory. +2 DM per Computer skill level.

A character with JOT-2 wants to attempt this throw. He has EDU-9. The Ref deicdes that it is not likely that JOT applies to this throw, so the check is 4D looking for 11 or less.
 
What about this...

Players with characters who have the JOT skill will be trying to use that skill all the time. Make a quick roll to decide whether the skill can be used.

This way, the Ref isn't the bad guy, always saying, "No, you can't use JOT because...".


If you want to roll against skill, this would give some more weight to the character gaining skill levels in JOT.

Can JOT be used in a situation? Roll 1D looking for JOT skill or less.

And somone would argue that having JOT over 6 gives no benefit :devil:.

And someone with JOT 6 (rare as it might be) sould be as having all skills at 0, aain too powerful IMHO.

Another idea.

Or, the Ref might make an appropriate stat roll.

Can JOT be used in a situation? Find a target number of Stat + JOT skill. Then roll 2D, 3D, or 4D for that number or less. Success means that JOT can be used. The Ref picks the difficulty, based on how likely he thinks it is that JOT should be used.

2D = Very Likely

3D = An Average Chance

4D = Not Likely

EDU is most often used on the roll, but the Ref may decide another stat is more appropriate.

Example:

The characters encounter an ancient alien computer. It takes a 10+ throw to access the computer's memory. +2 DM per Computer skill level.

A character with JOT-2 wants to attempt this throw. He has EDU-9. The Ref deicdes that it is not likely that JOT applies to this throw, so the check is 4D looking for 11 or less.

I like the idea too, though I'd use INT more often than EDU (I understand EDU as knowledge, while INT means more deducing about what you don't have knowledge. BUt I know that's quite argueable and this would be for another discussion...

See though, that if JOT is only used to gain skill 0 (or more, as you suggested in your previous post) where you have none, there's no benefit on skills you know, and I've always thoght that being ressurceful counts in both cases, when using your knowledge and when attempting something where you don't have it.
 
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