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CT Only: Jack of All Trades - A Discussion

See though, that if JOT is only used to gain skill 0 (or more, as you suggested in your previous post) where you have none, there's no benefit on skills you know, and I've always thoght that being ressurceful counts in both cases, when using your knowledge and when attempting something where you don't have it.

Don't forget JOT is not a common skill. It is most common among Scouts, which makes sense. There are three Scout tables that have JOT as a result.

The Navy and Merchants each have one table.

And, the skill can be had with the Other class if highly educated with EDU 8+.

And, that's it.
 
Don't forget JOT is not a common skill. It is most common among Scouts, which makes sense. There are three Scout tables that have JOT as a result.

The Navy and Merchants each have one table.

And, the skill can be had with the Other class if highly educated with EDU 8+.

And, that's it.
You left out Belter, Sailor, Diplomat, Flyer, Barbarian, Bureaucrat, Rogue, Noble and Scientist... from your namesake supplement.

Which makes Jack FAR less uncommon.
 
You left out Belter, Sailor, Diplomat, Flyer, Barbarian, Bureaucrat, Rogue, Noble and Scientist... from your namesake supplement.

Which makes Jack FAR less uncommon.

From the first post onward, S4 has made it clear that he is interested in discussing "basic Traveller" -- which has come to mean the rules found in Books 1-3.

In later posts he has named specifically the books he wants to focus on:
Threads do flow, with conversation, into new areas. It happens. I was just hoping to discuss this within the context of CT (and specifically, Books 1-3, Starter Traveller, or The Traveller Book).

So I don't think he left out Supplement 4 Citizens of the Imperium by any sort of accident or error. I don't think that Supplement is pertinent to the discussion at hand.
 
Keeping in mind I'm a noob, only around 3 games into my first campaign. Just some thoughts on JOT from my game...

I don't have much to add in terms of houseruling, but I want to say this is an interesting thread to me, as one of the players characters has JOT. She spent most of her service in the scouts (a failed navy career early, and I allowed her to enlist, embittered, into the scouts where she had a 12 year career).

I was happy she was the character with the skill, as an extremely high INT and EDU seemed to point to a very capable person. But I wonder: how much of her JOT skill is due to her great INT, and how much is from scout work? JOT being so available to scouts seems a no-brainer; you are often alone or at least in small numbers in space. You cannot always rely on others. If your exploration partner is the pilot, and dies (as scouts so often do), what choice have you but to try and pilot that ship to civilization on your lonesome. Such situations must occur very often in the scouts - hence low survival, high chance for JOT.

Neither here nor there really, but I'd almost rather other services than Scouts didn't allow this skill unless the INT was very high. What service, with the possible exception of certain life paths "other" might give out (growing up at a starport, lots of odd jobs, etc), would necessitate the need to be able to "MacGiver" your way home to safety?

The army service character in the game who mustered out with a Free Trader was kind of sad he didn't hit on JOT. But when he saw it pan out for the other character, who it seemed to make the most sense to having it, he was kind of glad. It seemed to have worked out for the best in terms of role play. The delicate genius with some college and a promising future career as a naval officer whom circumstances spit out into the scouts is the character who can pull off small miracles in a pinch. I would not have wanted it to happen any other way.

This thread has already been useful to me, as I saw the part about how JOT won't let you get a job piloting a ship. The guy with the Free Trader has already said, sort of metagaming I guess, "well, Cassie with the Jack of Trades can be the pilot/navigator/whatever" and I wasn't sure what to do with that. Now I think I know. She could approach it like "yeah, sure, I can pilot this thing" then when she steps up and they observe her going "um, hmm, OK, let's see, where's the booster switch - and is this lever for the skimming vents?" and immediately say to each other "Oookay...maybe we better find a career pilot..." :nonono:
 
This thread has already been useful to me, as I saw the part about how JOT won't let you get a job piloting a ship. The guy with the Free Trader has already said, sort of metagaming I guess, "well, Cassie with the Jack of Trades can be the pilot/navigator/whatever" and I wasn't sure what to do with that. Now I think I know. She could approach it like "yeah, sure, I can pilot this thing" then when she steps up and they observe her going "um, hmm, OK, let's see, where's the booster switch - and is this lever for the skimming vents?" and immediately say to each other "Oookay...maybe we better find a career pilot..." :nonono:

Yes, by the rules as written, JOT never serves as a permanent skill for the character above Skill-0.

Since Pilot-1 is required to hold the position of pilot on a vessel, JOT cannot be substituted. Even if a character has JOT-3, he's only considered to have Pilot-0.

What the character with JOT-3 can do is step in in emergency situations, as a last-ditch try. Nobody in their right mind would let a person with no flight training land a starship on a world. But, if a ship is out of fuel, and there are no orbital facilities....AND the regular pilot cannot function because he caught Zhodani measle-mumps...then there's no other option.

The character with the JOT-3 raises his hand and says, "I used to sit on the bridge and watch Old Haggarity swig on his bottle and pilot the ship. He even let me sit in the pilot's chair a few times. I think I can get us down."

This is where JOT-3 comes in. The skill can be used in this one-time situation to allow the character to land the ship. With the Ref's approval, of course.





It is quite clear that the use of the JOT skill is not automatic but up to the Referee's decision. This is how the skill will not be overused. The Ref won't allow it.
 
You left out Belter, Sailor, Diplomat, Flyer, Barbarian, Bureaucrat, Rogue, Noble and Scientist... from your namesake supplement.

Which makes Jack FAR less uncommon.

From the first post onward, S4 has made it clear that he is interested in discussing "basic Traveller" -- which has come to mean the rules found in Books 1-3.

In later posts he has named specifically the books he wants to focus on:


So I don't think he left out Supplement 4 Citizens of the Imperium by any sort of accident or error. I don't think that Supplement is pertinent to the discussion at hand.



creativehum is quite correct. And, I haven't read up on the Sup 4 characters in quite a while.

But, what the heck, let's open the discussion so that it includes ANY CT materials (which will invalidate some of the stuff written earlier).
 
There is one more thing I'll note about Jack: For most careers, it is a high education skill.

It's not backwater dropout. It's the well educated. Except for the scouts.
 
-- MORE COMMENTS ON THE USE OF THE JOT SKILL --



There will be those that argue that JOT can never be used as a skill higher than Level-0 because of the way it is written in the game. I don't think that opinion of the rules is correct; otherwise, the example given about aging crisis makes no sense. JOT skill level has to be used in order to for that example to mean anything.

I've said earlier in the threat that I believe the RAW rules to mean: JOT skill does two things. First, the character is considered to have every skill from the basic Book 1 skill list as a default skill. That is, the character has each of the skills from that list at Level-0. This is enough to keep the character from suffering any penalties because he does not have the skill.

Second, I do believe that the JOT skill level can be used on throws, when JOT is being substituted for a skill the character does not have, but these skill checks are rare and completely up to the Referee--the Ref decides when it is appropriate to use JOT in this manner.









Let's say this a different way:

The player can substitute his JOT skill for any skill on the basic list, anytime the player wants, but the character is considered to have Skill-0 in that skill.

On certain occasions, the Ref will allow the JOT to be used at its full skill level when substituted for another skill, but these will be rare, emergency type situations. The example in the book is an Aging Crisis where, if the roll is failed, the consequences are grim. The afflicted character will get gravely ill and likely die. This is obviously an emergency. No other character is available with the Medical skill in order to help the character. So, in the example, the Ref allowed a character with JOT to step in and use the JOT skill level to modifier the Aging Crisis roll.

The Ref should look at all factors--not just character skills. Do the characters have the needed equipment? Are there any environmental factors that would effect the roll? Besides the character's JOT level, what about his other stats? Are those stats appropriate for the job at hand? The Ref is totally fair if he rules that a character with JOT-2 but low EDU-2 and INT-3 cannot help on the Aging Crisis roll.









Think of the JOT skill as you would a Fate Point or a Luck Pool in another RPG, when considering whether to use the skill level or not.

The Ref should allow the use of the JOT skill only rarely. It should be used when the chips are down and the characters have no other hope. Notice the grave circumstances used in the example. The roll is fairly hard, and the result of that throw basically determines if the character will live or die.

A ship retreats from a battle with pirates, heading into an asteroid belt. An old automatic station is found, floating on one of the rocks. The ship's pilot was sucked out into space and killed after a bridge hull hit during the battle.

On board, the ship's Medic also has Pilot-1, and the ship's Steward as JOT-4. Who should pilot the ship?

Answer: The Medic. He's a qualified pilot. The Steward would be considered Pilot-0. This isn't a last ditch situation where there are no other pilots.

Answer: Let's say that the Medic doesn't have Pilot-1 after all. The only person on the ship that can pilot it is the Steward, using his JOT-4 skill to substitute for the Pilot skill. But, the Steward is still considered to only have Pilot-0. The situation is grim, but this isn't a make or break, fly or die situation. The chips aren't completely down.

Answer: But, now let's say that the Medic doesn't have Pilot-1, and the only person on the ship that can serve as pilot is the Steward with his JOT-4 skill. He still pilots the craft as if he has Pilot-0, but then an emergency happens. An skill roll is needed to keep the ship on the dark side of an asteroid in order to keep the ship hidden from the searching pirate vessel. On this one throw, the Steward can make the check as if he as Pilot-4. Why? Because it's a grave situation. It's very important that the pirate vessel not find their prey and finish their meal. This would be catastrophic for the characters with the ship in its current condition. After the one throw, the Steward goes back to piloting the ship as if he has Pilot-0.

The point: JOT skill defaults to Skill-0 in most situations. In the most dire situations, JOT can be used at full skill level for a single throw at the Ref's discretion.









For those Refs who will never allow JOT to be anything other than substituted for Skill-0:

Those that do not buy my argument above (and I would counter with the question, "Then how does JOT help the Aging Crisis throw in the example?"), skill levels above Skill-1 are still useful.

Remember, in Classic Traveller, skill levels are used for a variety of things--not just as modifiers to throws.

Example: A Ref never allows JOT at any skill level to serve as anything other than Skill-0. The characters are trying to hack into a computer system and pull cargo data on their competitor vessels at a starport. The roll is 10+. DMs are + computer skill, -2 if no computer skill, and +2 if EDU 8+.

The character attempting the hack has JOT-3. Therefore, under the Ref's rule, he is considered to have Computer-0. This avoids the -2 penalty. But, what about the EDU requirement? The character has EDU 6. But, the Ref allows the JOT skill to be added to the EDU, in this situation, so that the character's effective score is EDU 8 for this one throw. Here, the JOT skill comes into play without being a modifier on the throw. And, the character ends up with a +2 DM on the throw because the EDU 8+ requirement was met.









Also note that the JOT throw does not have to be the same as for the original roll.

The roll to fix the ATV is 8+. DM is +2 per level of Mechanic skill. Of course, no character has Mechanic skill. But, a character does have JOT-2.

The characters are out of water, and the extreme heat on the planet is about to fry them. Tools are available on the ATV.

The Ref allows the character with JOT-2 to make the roll, since this is a dire situation. But, the bonus will be a DM of +2 and not +4. The bonus for a real Mechanic skill is +2 per level, but with JOT, jury-rigging the machine, the bonus is half at +1 per level.

A Ref can change the roll anyway he sees fit, making up an entire different roll if he thinks it appropriate.
 
-- Am I wrong about the JOT skill? --


Maybe. I'm trying to reconcile the Aging Crisis example and the strong note that JOT cannot be considered higher than Skill-0.

This is the main reason I started this thread. What do you think?

Here are thoughts and questions.

With that Aging Crisis example, one of two things are being shown. It's either that the JOT skill level is used as a DM on the Aging Crisis throw. Or, the Aging Crisis throw is only available if someone around has either JOT or Medical skill. In this second case, JOT would sub for Medical and be considered Medical-0.

It looks to me, from reading the Aging Crisis section, that anyone can attempt the throw, with or without Medical training. Without Medical skill (or JOT), success on the 8+ throw means that the character will be incapacitated for a number of months. Failure means the character dies.

If Medical skill is available, then the skill level can be used as a DM on the throw.

If Medical Slow Drug is available, then the character can be cured immediately with his zero stat permanently raised to 1.

Does the example assume that a medical kit is being used? Because, in the equipment section, it is clear that Medical skill is needed to use it.

It's not as clear that Medical skill is needed to use Medical Slow drug. Medical Drug does require the skill. Slow drug doesn't. It doesn't say whether it does or not.

What are your thoughts?
 
Supp 4 book, chance of JoT:

Career:
Pirate no chance
Belter Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Sailor Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Diplomat Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Doctor no chance (good thing)
Flyer Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Barbarian Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Bureaucrat Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Rogue Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Noble Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Scientist Edu 8+ then 1 in 6
Hunter no chance.

So, for the better than average educated, Supplement 4 does offer a better chance of getting JoT if you are really wanting JoT.

That said, the RAW says that the usefulness of JoT is most efficient for the first award (the "loss" of no skill penalties) and after that it might be better to actually try for skills.
 
Where does it say that?

S4, you yourself pointed this out. I was paraphrasing your findings.

Since it seems necessary for some reason, the exact words I used are not found in the books. It seems pretty clear to me that no longer having non-skilled penalties for those skills that have them is a pretty large bonus.

Above JoT-1, since you can never get the equivalent of skill x-1 using JoT, and can only use JoT-x in extremis from there, it is pretty clear to me that it would be more efficient use of my skill rolls to try for an actual, non JoT, skill that may benefit me more employment wise, or success wise.
 
Don't forget JOT is not a common skill. It is most common among Scouts, which makes sense. There are three Scout tables that have JOT as a result.

The Navy and Merchants each have one table.

And, the skill can be had with the Other class if highly educated with EDU 8+.

And, that's it.

So, using only LBB1 (as LBB2 and 3 are irrelevant for this discussion), it is quite more common than Pilot skill:

Where can a character gain the primary ship skills?


Where do CT Pilots come from?

There are only three careers where a character can become a pilot, and in each of those the character must be highly educated with EDU 8+. Even then, there's only a 1-in-6 chance per term (provided the table is selected by the player) that the character will obtain the Pilot skill.

Those three careers are: Navy, Scout, and Merchant.

So, Pilots are pretty rare.

Though Pilot is automatic to all Scouts and R4 merchants, it need EDU 8+ in any other case, unlike JOT, that only need it in the Other career...

And yet anyone can understand a Pilot 6 skill (Han Solo), but no one thinks a JOT 6 one (McGuiver) as posible :devil:.
 
The way I do it is baked into my take on tasks, and JOT was VERY much a central part of how I ended up doing tasks.

1. Determine difficulty of task and relevant char/skills, Easy/Simply/Routine/Challenging/Difficult/Impossible. Tasks are increased 1-2 levels for hurrying up. Roll is CFHJLN, adding characteristic + skill- 2 autofail 12 + 1d6 to roll to succeed.

2. If the character to attempt task has relevant skill and it's a non-physical skill and routine or easier, the character can use the higher of INT or EDUC + skill. If the non-physical task is higher then routine, normally INT is the base characteristic.

3. If the task is higher then routine, the character can attempt a knowledge roll against the task before actually trying it, EDUC + skill. If successful, the task will reduce one step. This can apply to a physical/social/pure characteristic task as well as non-physical.

4. If successful with a knowledge check, the player is required to immediately note what the character turns out to know and announce how the character knows this, can apply this to future rolls automatically, cannot get additional attempts at further difficulty reduction and cannot preroll specific knowledge.

5. A crew or military unit or other organization can execute constant practice and drills to get knowledge roll reduction on specific tasks equal to the skill level of the person running the drills. The advantage disappears after 1d6 months of stopping practice/drills.

6. If the character has no relevant skill that is required, the difficulty increases two steps, including the knowledge roll.

7. JOT-1 or greater eliminates the no skill penalty, the entire JOT skill level can be applied to a knowledge roll to reduce difficulty but cannot apply to the actual task.

8. Autofail and Autosuccess allows for a breakthrough in skill increase/reduction at the player's option, purposely rolling many times to generate chances will incur penalties.

9. Combat rolls correspond to Striker ranges Effective/Routine, Long/Challenging, Very Long Difficult, with equipment and ammo potentially modifying.

Example-

Scotty, Kaylee and MacGyver are faced with an engineering crisis.

Relevant skills are Engineering and JOT, Characteristics are Int/Educ.

Scotty
BC Engineering-5

Kaylee
A5 Engineering-3

MacGyver
BC JOT-4

Let's assume a Difficult task (20+ required) and a roll of 7 for each knowledge and task attempt.

Scotty adds his engineering wizardry and prodigious engineering journal/ education to the knowledge roll, +17, to the 7 roll for 24 and knocks the difficulty down to Challenging (18+).

He rolls 7 again for Challenging and as usual makes the near impossible look easy, only possibly failing on a 2 in both cases.

Kaylee is a frontier wonder but undereducated, she adds only +8 to a knowledge check, with the 7 roll that's 15 and so the task stays Difficult.

On the task itself she gets +13 due to her intelligence and skill, with a roll of 7+13 she just succeeds at the Difficult task (2-6 would have been a failure). An astute player will note her success and it should be an autoreduction to Challenging next time.

MacGyver is a modern renaissance man that gets into and out of trouble with equal ease, using his wide-ranging knowledge and problem-solving capabilities. Against a Difficult Engineering task he performs a knowledge check, +16 thanks to the JOT skill and education, 23 against a 20+ check so the task itself drops to Challenging. Another task reduction to note in likely a long list.

A Challenging roll is 18+, however he cannot use the JOT skill but just intelligence, fortunately 7+11 is JUST going to make it. 2-6 would have been a failure.

Obviously these are very gifted characters and so they are capable of doing some amazing things, the average character will not likely be so gifted in skill AND characteristics, and will have a tougher go of it. But it should give you an idea of how I resolve JOT compared to other skills and a real value to increasing characteristics, particularly Educ.
 
- Jack of All Trades -

Of all the skills listed in the basic CT skill list, JOT is probably the most mis-understood. Because it is so misunderstood, there are tons of House Rules that alter the rule to some other vision of it.
[ . . . ]
There was a JTAS article at some point with some extended rules for jack of all trades at levels over 1. The way it worked was that it gave you access to related skills (e.g. Computer-Electronics). Where you had a skill that could do this, you could use related skills at one less than the lower level of either the base skill of Jack-O-T.

For example, under this rule if you had Computer-2 and Jack-O-T-2 you could act as if you had Electronic 1. If you had Computer-3 and Jack-o-T-2 you could act as if you had Electronic 1 also. If you had Computer-3 and Jack-o-T-3 you could act as if you had Electronic-2.
 
There was a JTAS article at some point with some extended rules for jack of all trades at levels over 1. The way it worked was that it gave you access to related skills (e.g. Computer-Electronics). Where you had a skill that could do this, you could use related skills at one less than the lower level of either the base skill of Jack-O-T.

For example, under this rule if you had Computer-2 and Jack-O-T-2 you could act as if you had Electronic 1. If you had Computer-3 and Jack-o-T-2 you could act as if you had Electronic 1 also. If you had Computer-3 and Jack-o-T-3 you could act as if you had Electronic-2.

OK, I found the article. It's in GDW JTAS 18, page 31. John M. Ford wrote it.

I typically like Ford's stuff, but I think he blew it on this article. What he says doesn't make sense given the availability of the skill.

His main example is weapons. He says to use JOT skill as an enabler that allows other skills to be used at lower level, but higher level than the character has.

First off, the skill clearly says that it does not confer expertise on a character higher than Skill-0. Here, Ford is suggesting that if a character has Rifle-3 and JOT-2 that the character can use Pistol-1.

Not only does that not makes sense given the statement in the skill about JOT not confer expertise above Skill-0, but it also makes JOT skill more powerful than any other skill in the game. Just by having JOT, the character, for all practical purposes, has a ton more skills.

Second, it is obvious that Ford didn't look at the distribution of the skill. Someone posted that it is fairly common among the Supplement 4 careers, and I've posted how rare the skill is among Book 1 careers. Army and Marine characters cannot even get JOT.

Does it makes sense that a Doctor or Other career would be more proficient with weapons than a character in the Army or Marines?

I'm going to have to ignore that article as "bad game writing".
 
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