Jump 1 vs Jump 2 ships in the CT Imperium

[spank]

I once used a similar formula, and ran into a problem: What about low tech
resource worlds (agriculture, mining) shipping large quantities of resources
to high tech industrial worlds in order to buy technology there ?

With a TL 7 resource world and a TL 15 industrial world you get a modifier
of -8, making the shipment of large quantities of resources impossible.

not impossible, just less likely at a desireable price, if you offer to do it on the cheap, say 500 CR per ton you get +5, not to mention the other modifiers.

 

[rust]

less likely at a desireable price ...say 500 CR per ton

Ah, there we have an explanation for grain and ore export subsidies ...

 

[spank]

That, and you have tou look at the trip as a route, if you only ever fly towards the TL 15 planet you will always have little freight available, but if you fly both ways the effect will average out.

 

[rust]

Do you prefer to have low tech planets and high tech planets the same Im-
perial Credit currency, or do you think of different currencies with exchange
rates based on TL ?

 

[spank]

I play mostly TNE, so there are lots of currencies, and a lot of variation in shipping value.

 

[rust]

Thank you for the informations !

 

[pendragonman]

I play mostly TNE, so there are lots of currencies, and a lot of variation in shipping value.

Before someone gets cranky, I have heard that it is no longer strictly canon; but in Trillion Credit Squadron there is a way for CT people to have an exchange rate system so that the Imperial Credit does not have to be THE credit of commerce.

I find it makes the game more interesting, but so does the way TNE handles it. (I play both).

 

[Hal]

I once used a similar formula, and ran into a problem: What about low tech
resource worlds (agriculture, mining) shipping large quantities of resources
to high tech industrial worlds in order to buy technology there ?

With a TL 7 resource world and a TL 15 industrial world you get a modifier
of -8, making the shipment of large quantities of resources impossible.

One of the Megatraveller rules books addressed this issue for use with the MERCHANT PRINCE like system of trade. The purchase and shipping of raw materials do not get the penalty for tech level as other "finished" products/freight/cargos do.

One thing that might be worth considering is that Low tech goods tend to have a low value per volume, and that High Tech goods tend to have a higher value per volume (there are exceptions of course!) such that trade volume is calculated by means of an exchange of goods that more or less balance out. In other words - world A can't trade with World B unless it has the money to do so. If World A has the money to trade, then World B ships it cargo/freight equal to the money spent divided by the value per dton. This generates how much tonnage is avaiable.

Example: Lets say that by what ever means possible, you as the GM determine that World A can spend about 50% of its GDP on trade with World B. World B's general value per dton is say, 10,000 credits. If World A's trade is worth 100 MCr, then you divide 100 MCR by .01, which in turn determines that World A imports about 10,000 dtons worth of material. Now, how does World A have the credits to buy 100 MCr's worth of goods? By selling 100 MCr's worth of goods (More or less) to world B. If World A's value per dton is 1,000 credits per, then World A has to export 10x as much as it imports by volume. Thus, World A needds to export 100,000 dtons of goods to World B.

One thing to consider is the prospect that the 100 MCr world A has, covers ALL trade partners, not just world B. Then the trade model has to be broken down more. It could for example, work out that World A trades almost ALL of its exports to World B. World B trades all of its exports to World C. World C imports the bulk of its imports from world A. Thus, for 100 MCr worth of trade to occur with all three worlds, A has to trade 100 MCr with B, B has to trade 100 MCr worth with C, and C has to trade 100 MCr worth with A. Variations on a theme can be done for ALL that is involved.

Hmmm. I wonder if something like this can be done using POCKET EMPIRES converted over to CT. Hmmm.

 

[rust]

The purchase and shipping of raw materials do not get the penalty for tech level as other "finished" products/freight/cargos do.

Thank you very much, this would indeed solve a couple of problems !

The situation you describe in your example is very similar to the situation in
my setting. There a colony exports ca. 210,000 tons of raw crystals with
a value of ca. 3,150 MACr per year to an industrial world, and imports va-
rious goods (e.g. machines, pharmaceuticals, etc.) with a value of about
2,520 MACr from there.
As a result, the huge bulk freighters fly from the colony to the industrial
world with full cargo holds, and return with almost empty cargo holds, but
with freight with almost the same value.
By the way, the remaining ca. 630 MACr from the colony's exports are used
to finance the trade with the free traders of the colony's region.

While my "homebrew" trade system (described in the thread on Pharos IV un-
der In My Traveller Universe) works fine for the immediate region of the co-
lony, I am looking for ideas on how to introduce some more long-range tra-
de with a wider region of my setting.

 

[pendragonman]

Hal,

Your example is nicely done. However, it does not address the long term effects of having a trade deficit (or surplus) with one of the other worlds in the trade cartel.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Hal]

Hal,

Your example is nicely done. However, it does not address the long term effects of having a trade deficit (or surplus) with one of the other worlds in the trade cartel.

What are your thoughts on this?

I'm not an economist, and the last I dealt with economics was in college wayyyyy back in the early 80's

My gut level response to your question? I suspect that the trade imbalances are short term things in the grand picture of history. What lasts for a period of say, 10 to 15 years is but a blip on the radar relatively speaking. For a galactic entity whose existence can be measured in centuries, I somehow suspect that short term trade disparities will iron themselves out. The other thing to remember too is that Deficit spending isn't part of the picture nor is the function of living on borrowed credit all to evident in the Traveller Universe. Sorry I can't answer you better

 

[spank]

It may also be that World B in your example has a defict with World A, and a surplus with World C, and the two cancel out

 

[Ishmael]

simple economy

For what its worth, I typed up a little bit of an idea I'm working on for economies. Its a bit of background that may be useful for world-building, but with a plan of working it into use for generating cargoes and freight. I'm hoping I can use it to determine prices and trade volumes and relationships between worlds.... and pc's trade from that.

http://moukotiger.googlepages.com/econosim.txt

Part 1 sets up the big picture. Part 2 will come once I get it to focus on the little picture.

-----------------------------------------
http://moukotiger.googlepages.com/traveller

 

[Hal]

For what its worth, I typed up a little bit of an idea I'm working on for economies. Its a bit of background that may be useful for world-building, but with a plan of working it into use for generating cargoes and freight. I'm hoping I can use it to determine prices and trade volumes and relationships between worlds.... and pc's trade from that.

http://moukotiger.googlepages.com/econosim.txt

Part 1 sets up the big picture. Part 2 will come once I get it to focus on the little picture.

-----------------------------------------
http://moukotiger.googlepages.com/traveller

Let us know when you get part two done

 

[Hal]

One of the Megatraveller rules books addressed this issue for use with the MERCHANT PRINCE like system of trade. The purchase and shipping of raw materials do not get the penalty for tech level as other "finished" products/freight/cargos do.

It was bugging me that I couldn't figure out where I'd seen the reference for ignoring Tech level differences for raw materials, and I finally found it.

If you can get your hands on the pdf document ConsolidatedMegaTravellerErrata by Don McKinney, the following information is readily available. Per Don's comments, the "errata" for trade comes from KNIGHTFALL. I've reproduced a portion of the document here for relevance.

Page 53, Step 1, Cargo Price (addition): Selling a speculative cargo should no longer be automatic. Before using Step 1, Cargo Price, the seller must first find a buyer. To do this, use the following task:

To find a buyer for speculative cargo:
[varies], Broker, Admin or Streetwise, [varies]
[High Pop (9~) = Simple, 4 hours];
[Mod Pop (4~) = Routine, 1 day];
[Lo Pop (3–) = Difficult, 2 days]

Referee: For manufactured hardware, increase the difficulty level by one for each difference in the tech code
(Early Stellar to Average Stellar is a difference of one, and so on). For novelty items, decrease the task difficulty one
level for each difference in tech code.
If the world’s Law Level is Low Law or less (3–), a fumble results in an automatic 3D mishap. At High Law, (8~), make the task hazardous (2D mishap), and at Extreme Law (A~), make the task hazardous and fateful (3D mishap).
In most cases, do not allow the difficulty to be increased beyond Formidable, unless the world has a Population of 0 (0-9 inhabitants).


Page 53, Step 3, Tech Level Effects (clarification): The price formula for cargo should be calculated as:
P = p ~ [p x (St – Dt)], where: P = final price
p = adjusted price so far
St = source world TL x 0.10
Dt = destination world TL x 0.10


Page 53, Step 3, Tech Level Effects (addition): If the item being sold is:
· A natural resource, ignore the tech level effects.
· A processed resource, use the tech level effects as given.
· Manufactured hardware, always use tech level difference as a minus (–).
· Manufactured nonhardware, use the tech level effects as given.
· Information, use the tech level effects as given.
· Novelty, always use the tech level difference as a plus (~).

Hope that helps

 

[rust]

For what its worth, I typed up a little bit of an idea I'm working on for economies. Its a bit of background that may be useful for world-building ...

There is a similar system in the World Tamer's Handbook, which might be
interesting and useful for you.

I am looking forward to seeing Part Two of your ideas.

 

[Ishmael]

There is a similar system in the World Tamer's Handbook, which might be
interesting and useful for you.

I am looking forward to seeing Part Two of your ideas.

I have it, but its too awkward to use, even for me.

My own system is based on it, sort-of. I use capital and infrastructure in production where light industry makes consumer goods, heavy industry makes capital and construction makes infrastructure, but I made equations so as to not have lookup tables and to handle tech levels and advancement easier. I then use Pocket Empires for taxes and related political stuff. I have it in a spreadsheet so far, but its not ready for prime time. It is also too much for actual play ( background only ).

What I'm playing with now is about as complex as as day-to-day play should get. And even then, most of it is background set-up. I don't care about complexity at set-up for a game, but play should be simple and fast.

btw...feel free to comment/critique in case I'm on the wrong track.
_________________________________________________________________
http://moukotiger.googlepages.com/

 

[flykiller]

play should be simple and fast.

yep.