Jump gates

[Enoki]

I was thinking about adding jump gates to MTU. There’s really nothing in the rules prohibiting them, while they would add a certain amount of versatility to many scenarios.

I’m basing this idea on the fact the way jumps work is rather vague. If you assume that the jump occurs at the point of beginning and afterwards doesn’t require continuous maintaining of the jump field, then jump gates would be workable. Since my version of how jump works is you are opening a N dimension well using something like gravitational force. The ship is pulled in and emerges at the ‘bottom’ of the well seven days later. Any large gravitational force can warp the shape of the well resulting in a misjump or precipitating the ship out of jump early, etc.

Given that as the way jumps work, a jump gate would be a ring / tube with the jump coils on the inside rather than the outside like on a ship. This would allow the ring to open a well for a ship sitting within the gate and allow it to jump. The gate could be sized to take ships up to a certain tonnage and could generate a J1 to 6 jump by design. All you need add it the jump capacitors, etc., and really big fuel tanks to allow it to make multiple jumps of ships. My initial estimate is one jump can be made every 30 minutes to 1 hour. That includes the last ship jumping, then the next ship moving into position, being properly aligned, and the jump system adjusted and recharged.

Operation would be either government or private, the cost being fuel plus a TBD amount for overhead and such to pay for the gate and crew. It would be a means of getting a 100% safe (or close to it) jump. Of course, ships would be limited in size to those that fit in the gate.

The advantages would be a non-jump ship or even something smaller than 100 dtons could be jumped through such a gate. If the ship were going to a location with a gate present it could jump between the two locations. For merchant ships, it might be cheaper than using a jump capable ship because of the increased cargo and passenger capacity not having a jump drive gives.

It could also be used by jump capable ships to allow them to go further (up to J6) than they could on their own. A jump capable ship would not need a return gate either.

The downside is that the gates are relatively expensive to build, operate, and maintain. Either the government is subsidizing the operation or there is sufficient volume of traffic to allow it to operate at breakeven or a profit. That means they’d only be found in systems where there is sufficient traffic volume to allow for the above to occur. If government operated, they’d also be a sort of customs / immigration check on the ships using the gate. A government could also mandate the use of one where it is available and your ship will fit (nice little monopoly to make some extra cash for the government). That would allow the government to control space traffic movement and track where various ships are going to.

This last could become a new player puzzle to try and figure out how to game the system so you could smuggle without being caught, and that sort of thing.

 

[Marcatlas]

I was thinking about adding jump gates to MTU. There’s really nothing in the rules prohibiting them, while they would add a certain amount of versatility to many scenarios.

I’m basing this idea on the fact the way jumps work is rather vague. If you assume that the jump occurs at the point of beginning and afterwards doesn’t require continuous maintaining of the jump field,

But it does. So, it takes a rewrite of major rules.

 

[Enoki]

But it does. So, it takes a rewrite of major rules.

How so?

 

[Marcatlas]

How so?

How so what? Jump capable Ship design and Jump drives and how to go into and through (or fail to) Jump space are major rules

 

[mike wightman]

That very much depends on the edition of the game you are using.
In CT to enter jump you need
a jump drive and fuel
the correct computer programs
distance from large objects
Not a lot of rules to change at all

Ships would have more room for other stuff without jump drive and fuel - more passengers, cargo, etc.
Not exactly game changing.

 

[Marcatlas]

That very much depends on the edition of the game you are using.
In CT to enter jump you need
a jump drive and fuel
the correct computer programs
distance from large objects
Not a lot of rules to change at all

Completely changing interstellar ship design rules is "not a lot of rules to change at all"? That changes commerce on top of ship economics and ship rules. THAT is MASSIVE

 

[Badenov]

Completely changing interstellar ship design rules is "not a lot of rules to change at all"? That changes commerce on top of ship economics and ship rules. THAT is MASSIVE

Well, mainly it means everyone drives SDBs, which of course means more weapons (or cargo, if you must). It sounds like an interesting dynamic. You would still want a few jump-capable ships, for if a gate breaks, gets interdicted, and for exploration.

The big change will be systems at the end of a Jump-6 won't be left on their own, with no visitors apart from a couple government ships (because there's zero way to make a profit when 60% of your cargo capacity is fuel).

 

[whartung]

Who cares how they work? They may work in a completely different method. The primary distinguishing characteristic is, perhaps, the monster amount of power involved, the vast cost, the encapsulated black holes that have to be captured, the terminus at the other end, the fact that that field has to be external created, one gate can only connect to one terminus, etc. etc.

The big question is whether it has the same dynamics in terms of travel time and things like that. THAT's where they become "game breaking" (or not, it's your TU). For those who like their Traveller at the Sector level and above, it could be an interesting to see how the dynamic of the sectors change as the Gate system is put in place. Imagine something like the effect of interstate system on Route 66 and the towns that got bypassed and their fates.

How the gates can become a new mechanic of Haves and Have Not. The coercion and finagling and politics of trying to convince the Imperium to build a gate in YOUR system.

How would Core change with instant travel to Deneb?

All sorts of upheaval could happen.

 

[mike wightman]

Completely changing interstellar ship design rules is "not a lot of rules to change at all"? That changes commerce on top of ship economics and ship rules. THAT is MASSIVE

Not really. You can easily increase the cost of the ships to keep the mortgage payments the same if the thrill of accounting in space is something you just can't say no to. Or increase the cost of fuel, or increase crew salaries and life support costs. It is pretty easily done.
An extra 30t to play with for a free trader isn't going to change much. You are still limited by the amount of freight and passenger availability tables, plus the speculative trade lot you find that week.

A friend of mine ran Traveller years ago and hated the limitations of ships - so we teleported from world to world. We explored alien ruins and all the usual stuff, but every time we moved worlds it was by teleportation portals.

The T4 announcement reminds me - there is at least one secret jump gate network in the Third Imperium.

 

[Enoki]

Who cares how they work? They may work in a completely different method. The primary distinguishing characteristic is, perhaps, the monster amount of power involved, the vast cost, the encapsulated black holes that have to be captured, the terminus at the other end, the fact that that field has to be external created, one gate can only connect to one terminus, etc. etc.

The big question is whether it has the same dynamics in terms of travel time and things like that. THAT's where they become "game breaking" (or not, it's your TU). For those who like their Traveller at the Sector level and above, it could be an interesting to see how the dynamic of the sectors change as the Gate system is put in place. Imagine something like the effect of interstate system on Route 66 and the towns that got bypassed and their fates.

How the gates can become a new mechanic of Haves and Have Not. The coercion and finagling and politics of trying to convince the Imperium to build a gate in YOUR system.

How would Core change with instant travel to Deneb?

All sorts of upheaval could happen.

All the jump gate would do is move the jump system off the ship to a fixed location in a system. The ship being jumped enters the gate, the gate crew aims at the destination and causes the ship to jump. You pay for that service. The issues with this would be:

Is the gate cost effective compared to using a jump ship?
It doesn't allow a non-jump ship to come back from a destination where there is no jump gate.
Would government(s) use such a system to control intersystem travel?

It certainly adds a huge political and economic new mechanic to the game. I haven't tried designing one using the ship rules-- basically a 0M 6J ring / tube design where the hole in the middle is large enough in diameter to take a certain tonnage / size of ship. Cost of building and operating one is the big factor here. If it is economical enough where it generates a profit or comes close where government subsidizes it, the idea could work.

As for effect, the other thing it might do is open up marginal worlds that normally aren't worth jumping to because of the cost to profit ratio for merchant ships.

It might well be like the introduction of railroads in the 19th century. It opens up vast areas that were largely inaccessible before.

Other uses might be say, a mining company sets up a smaller version that can fire containers of processed raw ore to a system where it is refined into a finished product. It might be cheaper--far cheaper--than using a fleet of jump ships to move the ore. That could make belt mining far more profitable. That is, you jump the unmanned container through the gate to another system.

In fact, that could be done to deliver goods to low pop, low economic systems too. Fire the container through and a local, small, non-jump, boat comes and brings the container in for delivery.

 

[Condottiere]

Consider them canals, Suez or Panama.

 

[Carlobrand]

Depends on which version of Trav you're using. MT was pretty detailed about how jump worked: lanthanum jump grid being energized to protect the ship against intrusion of jump space and so on. However, I don't see any reason they couldn't have discovered another method of interstellar travel, or perhaps the ships using the gates have a lanthanum grid but not the jump initiator.

This is a Babylon-5 style setting: you get places on your jump drive and, if they're worth regular visits, you build a gate. Gate's gonna be a prime military target though: blow it up and you've crippled trade. Won't slow down war fleets, but it will definitely affect their war economy.

 

[Vargr Breath]

CT= Jump Drive
YTU= Free to use whatever you want.

 

[Carlobrand]

CT= Jump Drive
YTU= Free to use whatever you want.

I thought the Ship's Locker forum was for "your favorite original equipment". Wouldn't this count as original equipment?

 

[bookwyrm]

My thinking is that Jump Gates would connect worlds that can afford them. Maintenance, Security, Crew, Fuel & Fuel Tankers... , and that you would need one Gate for each main world (system) a main world (system) would want to be connected to.

Which came first? The Jump Gate or the Jump Drive? Or both at the same time? If at different times, then one could be discovered at TL 9 and the other at TL 10, with the other TL's being the same for both.

For main worlds (systems) that couldn't afford a Gate or that don't want a Gate, jump ships are still an option.

Completely changing interstellar ship design rules is "not a lot of rules to change at all"? That changes commerce on top of ship economics and ship rules. THAT is MASSIVE

Ship design doesn't change at all. You are still using whichever ship design rules that are being used in your campaign. If a ship goes to systems exclusively connected by Gates, you design the ship accordingly. If the ship is going to some places that aren't on the Gate network, then you design it accordingly.

The Gates are going to use Refined Fuel, so using the Jump Gate would be the fuel cost to jump a ship plus a jump fee percentage.

As far as commerce goes, Gate ships can't trade with ungated worlds (systems), so they would have to pass up any passengers and/or cargo going to those worlds (systems) no matter how lucrative the passengers and/or cargo/freight is. Jump ships could use the Gate if they wanted... or not.

You could place a limit on the maximum hull size that can use the Gate, like 2k, 5k, 10k, 20k, and anything bigger has to jump using jump drives.

Main Worlds in a system without any gas giants might not have a Gate. On the other hand, systems with strategic value (trade, military, political) might have a Gate, but travelling through it might be more expensive.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I was thinking about adding jump gates to MTU. There’s really nothing in the rules prohibiting them, while they would add a certain amount of versatility to many scenarios.
...
It could also be used by jump capable ships to allow them to go further (up to J6) than they could on their own. A jump capable ship would not need a return gate either.

But it does. So, it takes a rewrite of major rules ... How so what? Jump capable Ship design and Jump drives and how to go into and through (or fail to) Jump space are major rules

Since this is General Discussion and not OTU Only, Lets go step by step here
1. @Enoki, There are already Ship Design Rules for Star Gates in the MgT1E and MgT2E High Guard rules. Perhaps they will be of use. Do you call them Jump Gates bc the ships remain in Jump Space ( a Jump slingshot LOL) for 1 week or is the transfer instant?

2. OTOH it is not like Jump/Hop/Leap/etc. is the only FTL system in the OTU: The Ancient's Portal System.

2. So it is not like the design ship rules for Jump Ships is invalidated, per se. What does change @Enoki and I think this is @Marcatlas 's point. It would change how YTU would end up vastly different from OTU. Imagine a series of Jump Gates across The Great Rift. If transport is instant, the Third Imperium could bring to bear Naval Elements from across the Imperium to defend or attack in the Frontier Wars. Control of gates to advance or destruction of same to do scorched earth retreats changes naval strategies.

 

[Enoki]

Since this is General Discussion and not OTU Only, Lets go step by step here
1. @Enoki, There are already Ship Design Rules for Star Gates in the MgT1E and MgT2E High Guard rules. Perhaps they will be of use. Do you call them Jump Gates bc the ships remain in Jump Space ( a Jump slingshot LOL) for 1 week or is the transfer instant?

The jump gate works the same as the rules for jumping a ship. It takes a week, and no gate is required at the arrival point, only the starting point.

My view of how jump works is that you form an N dimensional space "well" that looks like a funnel. You enter at the large end and move towards the small end FTL as the well (funnel) collapses behind you 'pushing' you forward. At the small end you pop out into normal space. If you get near a serious gravity source (something other than micro background gravity), it distorts the funnel or pulls you out of it resulting in a misjump. None of that changes with using gates.

2. OTOH it is not like Jump/Hop/Leap/etc. is the only FTL system in the OTU: The Ancient's Portal System.

It is the same method the rules use for jump capable ships. Limited to J6 or less, takes a week. The only thing that changes is that a non-jump capable ship can be jumped using one. The size of the ship is limited by the size of the gate. The gate can jump a ship to any point within it's jump limit (J6 or less), and a gate might be less than J6 capable. So no, they don't work like a stargate would where distance is nearly irrelevant, and you need one at both ends.

One of the things it brings in is the idea of small corporate and private ships (< 100 tons, non-jump) being useful for moving between systems with gates. This means lower costs to send your CEO on a trip somewhere, and for the rich, having less than a jump capable yacht to go on that vacation.

2. So it is not like the design ship rules for Jump Ships is invalidated, per se. What does change @Enoki and I think this is @Marcatlas 's point. It would change how YTU would end up vastly different from OTU. Imagine a series of Jump Gates across The Great Rift. If transport is instant, the Third Imperium could bring to bear Naval Elements from across the Imperium to defend or attack in the Frontier Wars. Control of gates to advance or destruction of same to do scorched earth retreats changes naval strategies.

If they were set up across the Great Rift, they'd have to be a J6 intervals and have a source of LHyd to operate. They can't just sit in open space and work otherwise. That means you need them in a system or near some other source of liquid hydrogen to run. Sending tankers through with fuel to run them would be cost prohibitive except possibly to the military (think flying fuel for B-29 raids to China over the Himalayas).

The only thing they really change is the smaller ship dynamic in high traffic areas. You could get a non-jump ship to use between them lowering the cost of the ship and raising the amount of cargo and passengers carried. The other use, as I pointed out might be more specialized where a company doing mining operations brings one in tuned to the necessary jump factor to fire containers of ore from a belt in a system to a refinery for processing reducing the cost of transport substantially.

 

[whartung]

Would government(s) use such a system to control intersystem travel?

Yea, the whole jump gate thing opens up a whole slew of societal implications.

There's similar potential controls with the whole "jump cartridge" capability. "He who controls the cartridge..." kind of thing.

BTW, FF&S1 has a section on Stargates with some design guidelines.

I don't think a Jump Gate would be incompatible with Jump Drives, but it would certainly have an impact.

I think the interesting part is simply the whole transition phase. Either the early development of it, or the later discovery of it and how it impacts the galaxy. After its established, few hundred years later, it's just not very interesting. Outside of a "the last of the V8s" "Mad Max" "before the Jump law" kind of thing where someone manages to get their hands on a illegal jump drive, and the fun and games that can entail.

 

[Enoki]

Yea, the whole jump gate thing opens up a whole slew of societal implications.

There's similar potential controls with the whole "jump cartridge" capability. "He who controls the cartridge..." kind of thing.

BTW, FF&S1 has a section on Stargates with some design guidelines.

I don't think a Jump Gate would be incompatible with Jump Drives, but it would certainly have an impact.

I think the interesting part is simply the whole transition phase. Either the early development of it, or the later discovery of it and how it impacts the galaxy. After its established, few hundred years later, it's just not very interesting. Outside of a "the last of the V8s" "Mad Max" "before the Jump law" kind of thing where someone manages to get their hands on a illegal jump drive, and the fun and games that can entail.

That's my thinking. It adds a new dynamic to the game without really changing the limitations on jumps other than now, if a gate is available, you can jump in a non-jump ship. So, if the players were willing to risk jumping to a non-gate system in a non-jump ship to accomplish something, they could and that might even result in a situation where they'd otherwise pass on going because it is economically a loser.

Think of a scenario like this: Rich noble tells players, 'Go to system X for me and do job Y. I'll pay you 1 million up front and you get another 20 if you finish the job. Because it's a rush I'll send you through the jump gate on a boat (non-jump something like 10 to 20 tons). I'll send a jump ship to pick you up in a few weeks..."

The players take the bait and go. They do the job and are beat to hell doing it, but they succeed. Congratulating each other, they wait for the jump ship to get them off the miserable rock they're on. It never comes...

Noble to his closest advisor(s), "I have it on good authority that Y is finished and no longer a problem. That issue on X is resolved quietly. It only cost me two million, a bargain if there is one..."

 

[Spinward Flow]