Jump Space:Run Silent-Run Deep

[rancke]

Part of the enjoyment of a roleplaying game is the game part. Manipulating odds in your favor until you roll the dice and win or lose. For that to work (for me and my firends, anyway), there has to be choices and a genuine risk of failure. The result of the failure doesn't have to be death, but it must be something the players care about. But if the only choice is to jump or not to jump and the consequernces of jumping is going to kill your character sooner rather than later, there isn't much gaming involved. (This, incidentally, is why I dislike Horror RPGs).


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

It isn't hyperspace like 21'st century air flight. It's hyperspace like 16th-17th century sea voyages.

Are you aware of the casualty rate of 16th century voyages, and how many explorers simply vanished with no accounting whatsoever? That does not include the Lost Colony of Roanoke.

Having a jump pose the same likelihood of loss would make your characters extremely unhappy as they would be dying on a very regular basis.

Finally there's a good example of a white-knuckle ride that effects the crew but not the ship in Asimov's "I Robot". When the Hyperdrive is first developed and tested it is discovered that the jump causes the tempory death of humans. As described in the book its a terrifying experience for the crew followed by the elation of returning to life.

That might work with test pilots, for the average populace, Asimov never gave a thought. Note, I have a very low opinion of most of Asimov's science fiction writing. He never did explain how one was "temporarily dead". I do not recall a Miracle Max being around.

However, to each his or her own Traveller Universe. It is your responsibility to keep your gamers happy. If making every jump a "white knuckle" experience does so, so be it.

 

[rancke]

Are you aware of the casualty rate of 16th century voyages, and how many explorers simply vanished with no accounting whatsoever? That does not include the Lost Colony of Roanoke.

And yet, when you read a fictional novel about an explorer setting out on a voyage of discovery in the 16th Century, odds are excellent that he'll survive. That's because the author doesn't actually calculate the survival odds of each encounter and roll dice to see if the main character survives, leaving the rest of the pages blank if the dice says no.

This means that if you want a player character to go through the same sort of plot as the hero of an action/adventure story, you have to fake the odds somehow. Ten to one odds really do have to come off ninetynine times out of a hundred.

You can have a hazardous jump drive (though 1 in 6 is far too high odds for commercial viability); you just can't let those odds apply to the PCs.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Are you aware of the casualty rate of 16th century voyages, and how many explorers simply vanished with no accounting whatsoever? That does not include the Lost Colony of Roanoke.

Having a jump pose the same likelihood of loss would make your characters extremely unhappy as they would be dying on a very regular basis.
...

I'm well aware of the casualty rate, and it's a bit premature to decide players won't like it when he's just beginning to explore his ideas. He's looking for a new approach. He's trying to define parameters that put a bit of the adventure in jump that already exists in regular space. What the right balance is will be an interesting question, but pointing out that it isn't safe really doesn't say anything. If we all played for safe, we wouldn't need lasers and missiles, not to mention guns.

Yes, his ideas will define his setting. It won't be the Third Imperium. It won't be Firefly. It won't be a universe where tramp freighters go from world to world eking out a living and taking chances for profit with a peaceful week's rest in hyperspace between stops. It will be a wee bit more mysterious and dangerous, a wee bit more "here there be monsters," and the culture and economy that grows around that will reflect that. It'd be better, I think, to explore that and see where it leads us than to point out that we're not in Kansas anymore.

 

[rancke]

Yes, his ideas will define his setting. It won't be the Third Imperium. It won't be Firefly. It won't be a universe where tramp freighters go from world to world eking out a living and taking chances for profit with a peaceful week's rest in hyperspace between stops. It will be a wee bit more mysterious and dangerous, a wee bit more "here there be monsters," and the culture and economy that grows around that will reflect that. It'd be better, I think, to explore that and see where it leads us than to point out that we're not in Kansas anymore.

It won't be a universe where tramp freighters exist, period. Timeover is right about the huge problem that the cost of a ship represents. If the loss ration is 1 in 6 per jump, four succesful voyages will have to earn enough profit to pay for two lost ships (rough figures). If a ship costs MCr100, a trip to "China" to fetch "tea" will have to earn a profit of MCr50 in order to break even. More if you want a return on your MCr600 investment. That means your return cargo has to be worth about half a million credits per dT.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

I'm well aware of the casualty rate, and it's a bit premature to decide players won't like it when he's just beginning to explore his ideas. He's looking for a new approach. He's trying to define parameters that put a bit of the adventure in jump that already exists in regular space. What the right balance is will be an interesting question, but pointing out that it isn't safe really doesn't say anything. If we all played for safe, we wouldn't need lasers and missiles, not to mention guns.

Yes, his ideas will define his setting. It won't be the Third Imperium. It won't be Firefly. It won't be a universe where tramp freighters go from world to world eking out a living and taking chances for profit with a peaceful week's rest in hyperspace between stops. It will be a wee bit more mysterious and dangerous, a wee bit more "here there be monsters," and the culture and economy that grows around that will reflect that. It'd be better, I think, to explore that and see where it leads us than to point out that we're not in Kansas anymore.

However, to each his or her own Traveller Universe. It is your responsibility to keep your gamers happy. If making every jump a "white knuckle" experience does so, so be it.

I believe that I said that.

 

[sabredog]

I like the idea and have used it in the past. As my universe grew it got to be cumbersome to keep track of all the routes and risks so I scrapped it. Nowadays the beings and beasts that live in the voids occasionally interact with a ship as it cruises the riskier regions with rare but dramatic intercepts in jump.

The collision alarm goes off, the ship may lurch violently and parts get damaged outside and in, and sometimes the beast or being may manifest inside the ship to try to take a prey item off it or trade with the crew. Regions where this happens are noted by captains who want to risk the experience to trade for really exotic goods and the occasional higher-than-usual tech device will plot jumps through those areas with beacons sounding the deeps to help alert and attract such beings. It allows me to insert the rare goodie into the campaign to attract players into adventures they might otherwise not consider. It also adds to the overall role-play exchanges when chasing down the locations of such things in the various bars, ports, and salons of patrons willing to front the cash and/or ship to try such a fishing expedition while hoping to find the magic whatsit that will allow for some major advance or riches.

But having all those multiple routes, with some worlds having several routes in and out depending on risk and the jump capability of the ship was too much to keep track of. Maybe if I had a PC back in the day to track it all with and build the multi-layered maps I think the concept requires to fully do it justice it would be easier but my C64 wasn't up to that sort of thing. I also had a hard time getting everyone else to buy off on the idea given that it complicated jumps so much that even a routine one became kind of annoying after a while. So, simplification was made and the regular jumps per the rules re-instituted unless alternate drives were used.

It is a good concept, though, and definitely worth trying.

 

[Carlobrand]

It won't be a universe where tramp freighters exist, period. Timeover is right about the huge problem that the cost of a ship represents. If the loss ration is 1 in 6 per jump, four succesful voyages will have to earn enough profit to pay for two lost ships (rough figures). If a ship costs MCr100, a trip to "China" to fetch "tea" will have to earn a profit of MCr50 in order to break even. More if you want a return on your MCr600 investment. That means your return cargo has to be worth about half a million credits per dT.


Hans

No, he's absolutely right in that. It won't be a universe where tramp freighters run around in 30-million credit ships trying to eke out a living - unless of course there are "safe" routes that allow such to be profitable. It'll be a universe where a rich man, or possibly a conglomerate of rich men, plunks down 180 million for several ships and hires brave crews in the hope that most of those ships come back and bring back enough to make up for the ones that don't and to make a profit on top of that. As player, you won't be your own master, and you'll be aiming for a far richer goal than just money for next month's mortgage payment. It ain't Kansas.

 

[aramis]

This also ignores one of the big items in Traveller ship operational cost that DOES NOT appear, and that is insurance for ship and cargo. In the real world, no shipper is going to put cargo on a ship that cannot get insurance, but except for certain areas of the world, that is not a high cost item.

If you have a

risk factor involved, and for "white knuckle" I would assume that you are thinking of a minimum of a 1 in 6 chance of not coming out of jump or misjumping to who knows where, your insurance cost explodes. If there is a 16% chance of vanishing, you are looking at probably 18% to 20% insurance rates, FOR EVERY JUMP. Your basic Classic Free Trader runs 37.08 Million Credits, without cargo, so even a 16.67% rate for insurance (1 in 6 chance of loss) means that you have to put up, IN CASH, 6.18 Million Credits every jump.

Your math doesn't quite follow...
An insurance cost of MCr6.18 is only covering the expected loss rate - the insurer almost always hedges (as you note) 2%-10% of payout over risk.

Further, you're leaving out a non-monetary cost: the hassles many major insurance agencies put people through - inspections, mandated procedures, automatic report tell-tales...

And then, there's the whole issue that Insurance is not a universal standard. There ARE best practices for insurers, one of which is telling the insured "You cannot do ___ nor go to ___"...

I've known a few crab fishermen - many skippers don't carry any insurance at all - they carry a bond for workman's comp, and pay cash for covered injuries, because it's both less expensive and less hassle. Fewer safety inspections, fewer restrictions on what the work conditions may be. And it's not like most insurers will cover the guys on deck anyway - the injury rate is nearly 100% per trip (tho' most require little more than on-board first aid). the loss rate per boat's fairly low - but a boat pays off in a few successful trips anyway, so it's a non-issue. Most skippers can get a secured load against their house if they need to replace the boat. So, there's really no compelling reason for them to carry insurance.

In a dangerous space environment, again, it's not like there will be insurers lining up to do business. If anything, the insurance will be included in the mortgage payments, just like many housing and boat loans are now.

 

[mike wightman]

Note that Timerover has made up the hyperspace loss statistics to suit himself, the OP says that losing a ship is an incredibly rare event.

A couple of questions for Patron Zero:

will ships in hyperspace be able to detect one another if they are close enough?

is combat in hyperspace possible?

will a trip through hyperspace still take one week regardless of distance or will it be more akin to a pseudo-ftl velocity?

 

[SpaceBadger]

One idea I haven't seen mentioned (admittedly, I skimmed some of this thread) is that the hazards are worse for the FIRST explorers along a given route, but that once the route is mapped the hazard decreases significantly. This would make scouting a risky profession (as shown by the CT survival rolls for Scouts) but later travel for trade and transport not so bad.

 

[mike wightman]

IMTU I have jump rutters that navigators use to keep notes on their jump plots and astrogation peculiarities. Such a thing may fit nicely into this proposed paradigm.

I like the idea of unexplored routes being a bit more challenging than regularly travelled, well mapped routes too.

 

[pendragonman]

IMTU I have jump rutters that navigators use to keep notes on their jump plots and astrogation peculiarities. Such a thing may fit nicely into this proposed paradigm.

I like the idea of unexplored routes being a bit more challenging than regularly travelled, well mapped routes too.

I like the idea of rutters. Brings the flavor of 15th century navigation to the game.

 

[flykiller]

I like the idea of unexplored routes being a bit more challenging than regularly travelled, well mapped routes too.

that is indeed a good idea. brings a whole new facet to the concept of scouting and makes navigation skill and successful navigation task rolls very important.

"I''m going from efate to louzy." "here's a navigation tape, just plug it in."

"I'm going from planet x to something I see in the distance." "good luck."

 

[Timerover51]

I had a quote for insurance for operating a 180 foot US Coast Guard retired buoy tender as a research vessel on the Great Lakes of $32,000 per year for a replacement cost of $1.6 Million. That did not cover medical or Workman's Comp insurance, which would be on a per trip basis. The Great Lakes can be quite nasty at times, but nothing comparable to the North Atlantic in Winter or the Bering Sea most of the time. That represents a rate of 2%. For a 37 Million Credit Free Trader, that would be 740,000 Credits per year for insurance, or 61,667 Credits per month. That is probably why insurance is not in the game.

 

[whulorigan]

I had a quote for insurance for operating a 180 foot US Coast Guard retired buoy tender as a research vessel on the Great Lakes of $32,000 per year for a replacement cost of $1.6 Million. That did not cover medical or Workman's Comp insurance, which would be on a per trip basis. The Great Lakes can be quite nasty at times, but nothing comparable to the North Atlantic in Winter or the Bering Sea most of the time. That represents a rate of 2%. For a 37 Million Credit Free Trader, that would be 740,000 Credits per year for insurance, or 61,667 Credits per month. That is probably why insurance is not in the game.

The question would be: How much greater or less risk would a starship in space be versus a sea vessel sailing on dangerous waters? How much greater or less of a chance of total loss of the vessel?

Would it be dependent upon where the vessel is operating (i.e. Piracy concerns, et al)?

GT: Far Trader in one if its sidebars once made the point that the purpose of the TAS System of Classification Zones was ultimately for insurance purposes. For Amber Zones, declare your destination intentions and pay an additional premium, or risk non-payment for any losses; for Red-Zones, automatic non-payment.


As far as the OP goes, perhaps insurance rates differ depending upon established routes, or declaring "off-route" / "new route" activities for a vessel (the equivalent of an "Amber Zone").

 

[Timerover51]

The question would be: How much greater or less risk would a starship in space be versus a sea vessel sailing on dangerous waters? How much greater or less of a chance of total loss of the vessel?

The Great Lakes in the summer are not viewed as dangerous, with the main issue being the possibility of collision with other vessels. Being caught by a waterspout is a possible problem as well. Worse time for weather is late October through December, with November being the worst for Lake Superior and Huron (see Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald).

Would it be dependent upon where the vessel is operating (i.e. Piracy concerns, et al)?

No chance for piracy on the Lakes, and that is separate insurance anyway, depending on what steps the ship has taken for protection.

GT: Far Trader in one if its sidebars once made the point that the purpose of the TAS System of Classification Zones was ultimately for insurance purposes. For Amber Zones, declare your destination intentions and pay an additional premium, or risk non-payment for any losses; for Red-Zones, automatic non-payment.


As far as the OP goes, perhaps insurance rates differ depending upon established routes, or declaring "off-route" / "new route" activities for a vessel (the equivalent of an "Amber Zone").

Current nautical insurance is based on route and time of year sailing, as well as age of ship, equipment, crew, and cargo. Stupidity on the part of the captain is not easy to insure for.

 

[Carlobrand]

... Being caught by a waterspout is a possible problem as well. ...

Ooh, that gives an idea. You have to monitor for jumpspouts in jumpspace that might dump you into realspace in some unexpected location.

 

[Timerover51]

Ooh, that gives an idea. You have to monitor for jumpspouts in jumpspace that might dump you into realspace in some unexpected location.

For that matter, too close an approach to a black hole on your jump route might do interesting things as well.

 

[Silverhawk]

David Weber's Honorverse had gravity waves in hyperspace that could prove very dangerous to a ship whose navigation took it too close. Ships use the same sensors as normal space but with greatly reduced range.

So the idea of having some sort of topography in jumpspace therefore giving the players something to do beside just lounge around is not a bad idea.