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Jump Torpedos

Game Rules: Robots can't survive jumpspace. It mucks up their robot brains.

Player: Then what's in a starship computer that controls jumps?

Game Rules: :confused: :eek: :oo: :(

Player: ... I'm waiting ...

Game Rules: Um ... :CoW:

Player: That's what I thought ... :toast:
 
Game Rules: Robots can't survive jumpspace. It mucks up their robot brains.

Player: Then what's in a starship computer that controls jumps?

Game Rules: :confused: :eek: :oo: :(

Player: ... I'm waiting ...

Game Rules: Um ... :CoW:

Player: That's what I thought ... :toast:
It's not that they can't survive jump space (aside from one version that shows up in AotI), it's that for some reason Jump becomes unreliable unless there's a sophont pilot aboard.

(Once again, "Jump Space wants an appreciative audience, and gets pissy when there isn't one.")
 
Mongosian physics has more to do with the metaphysical connection between the warp and organic consciousness.
And is not supported by any extant OTU canon what so ever.

The robots in AotI are a one off case, it is somthing specific to that particular alien robot type. There is no mention in LBB8, no mention in DGP's ongoing trek across the Imperium with a robot.

It's another example of poor research and wanting to include someone's house rules.
 
Is there any canonical evidence, pre-virus, of robot guided ships, particularly through jump?

Yes, Jump Torpedoes. But they were decanonized in 1981. Not due to control, but due to a change in hard limits for Jump Drives.
Robots in Bk 8 can have Navigation skill.

Post-virus Vampire Ships can jump on their own (TTNE). But...

Vampire ships are silicon natural life which was uplifted. Therefore, they don't preclude a life requirement.
 
Yes, Jump Torpedoes. But they were decanonized in 1981. Not due to control, but due to a change in hard limits for Jump Drives.
Robots in Bk 8 can have Navigation skill.
And the pilot skill...

Post-virus Vampire Ships can jump on their own (TTNE). But...

Vampire ships are silicon natural life which was uplifted. Therefore, they don't preclude a life requirement.
What if you use a wafer stored personality being run on a computer or in a robot brain...
 
Game Rules: Robots can't survive jumpspace. It mucks up their robot brains.

Player: Then what's in a starship computer that controls jumps?

Game Rules: :confused: :eek: :oo: :(

Player: ... I'm waiting ...

Game Rules: Um ... :CoW:

Player: That's what I thought ... :toast:

The closest I can get to solving this particular bit of rules lawyering conundrum would be to stipulate that starship computers have, by default as a minimum standard, the following:
LBB8 said:
Electronic Circuit Protection: Provides the circuits of the robot with radiation and harsh environment protection through the use of heavier circuit components, backup circuits, and shielding of critical circuits. including this multiplies the robot's final weight and price by 1.5.
Starship computers with fiber optic backup have an even higher protection against hard radiation than the standard (so, milspec radiation hardening).

Well ... something has been discovered since 1977/1981 about ... the universe ... and computers.

The Universe Is Hostile To Computers (23 minute youtube link that is well worth your time to watch)
(also brings new poetic meaning of having stars in your eyes, since that's just cosmic radiation streaking through your eyeball(s)!)



So here's the extrapolation. ;)

In "radiation normal" environments ... such as terrestrial worlds with magnetospheres of sufficient power, space stations and other "safe" locations in normal space ... the radiation exposure is predictable (within certain tolerances). So bit flipping in computers (single event upsets, as described in the above youtube video) are relatively rare, but can be known to happen and dealt with through error correction software techniques.

But jumpspace is ... weird :oo: ... really REALLY WEIRD.
In jumpspace, the probabilities of radiation causing a bit flip in an electronic computer (a single even upset) just gets really "wonky" (to use the proper technical term). Rather than being a consistent randomization of probabilities (normal space), in jumpspace you wind up with a random randomization of probabilities that can cause bit flips in heisenberg unpredictable fashion in computers in ways that can get "randomly reprogrammed" which are dangerous to the integrity of robot (or computer) programming.

The solution to this particular challenge, from a robot programming perspective is a combination of hardening of hardware components and building in additional redundancy to enable error correction by cross-checking.

In other words, you wind up with jump "capable" robot brains needing to be built to a higher standard than is needed for robots meant to operate in "ordinary biosphere" radiation environments. It's a type of jumpspace radiation that biologics can survive just fine, but which can potentially muck up the programming of a robot's computer brain by random resets of bits of information in their electronics.

So rather than robots being "unable" to survive jumpspace as a guaranteed outcome, rather it's a case of being "unable" to exit jumpspace "unmodified" from the state they were in prior to entering ... and for sufficient levels of artificial intelligence, that becomes a "terrifying prospect" that a robot that exits jumpspace is "not the same robot" that entered jumpspace, because their underlying programming that makes them "who they are" might be edited and altered by jumpspace itself.

In other words ... the universe hates computers to a certain degree ... but jumpspace hates computers EVEN MORE than normal space does. :oo:



And that's my best attempt to be able to square that particular circle without needing to gesticulate too wildly with my hands.

Note that such a notion helps to explain why starship computer models only get LARGER with increasing tech levels, rather than smaller. That's because as computer sophistication increases with tech level, those computers become more susceptible to disruption of their programming in jumpspace. The solution? Increasing redundancy and hardening even further, causing computer prices and size and power requirements to increase as tech level and sophistication increases, rather than shrinking and going down like we see in the "terrestrial, normal space" computer market (since 1977 ;)).
 
I'm afraid your explanation is quite hard to swallow for me...

If jumpspace is so dangerous for robot brains, it should be too for computers. as robot brains are computers (albeit quite specialized/complex ones), and computers are a key part of any spaceship/starship...

This aside, robots are quite common inside the ships. many designed robots are for starship use (repair robots/drones in MgT, various engineer robot designs in CT/MT), with some races using even more than Imperium (e.g. K'kree are told to have them for many too enclosed functions in any ship) and others are safely carried on them (combat drones for the Zhodani being a good example, as the ones appearing in a scenario of AHL or when Zhodani troops are moving, as it's canon they use them), as are many kinds of drones (combat ones, mining ones, etc) .

And that's not to tolk about the effect your theory will have on any vampire ship in TNE (as much as I can hate it, it's also canon)...

In fact, even a unarmored ship has more armor than many tanks (in MT, and "unarmored" ship has armor factor 40, over doublé than Battledress), and this armoring is against micrometeor damage and also against radiation. This is what allows biologicals to survive space, and, at least while computers/robot brains are inside this armor, they should be as safe as any biological.

IMHO saying that robots must have electronic circuit protection to survive jumpspace would be as saying biologicals must wear anti radiation suits for it. Electronic circuit protection is for the EMP of a nuke, not for space/jumpspace radiation.

IMHO any limitation to have starships piloted by robot brains (be them robot starships, robot pilots, robot core computers as in MgT, or whatever) is for psycological bias by the biologicals or safety laws, not because they are physically unable to exist, nor because they cannot survive jumpspace.

After all, IIRC, Hiver fleets (hiver having different biases or laws) are said to be moslty robotic...
 
Pffft, the truth is it's a human guild rule to lock robots out of the labor market.


Biological privilege!


On a practical basis I have bots in play, but I'm not running higher TLs, and keeping them more costly then the humans.


Also, the bot owner has full liability over what the bot does, that and bots misinterpreting bad commands ala Hal9000 causes a lot of ship operators to use bots as adjuncts not primary crew. Think applying genie wish interpretation problems.


Beyond a certain point, the more the robot can interpret commands as 'what you meant', then the more they can also assess that your stupidity is annoying and what a nice ship you have.



Even if you go with a sliding cost drop vs. capability as TLs advance, they can be expensive to repair.


Don't have to go to jumpatron particles interfering with robot brains to keep biologicals in the mix.


Another way to go- one of the underlying premises of the Cyberiad is that robots ARE the dominant technological life form and so most everyone in that universe is cyber. Doesn't seem to make them any less egotistical/jerk/greedy.
 
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Yes, Jump Torpedoes. But they were decanonized in 1981. Not due to control, but due to a change in hard limits for Jump Drives.
Robots in Bk 8 can have Navigation skill.

Post-virus Vampire Ships can jump on their own (TTNE). But...

Vampire ships are silicon natural life which was uplifted. Therefore, they don't preclude a life requirement.

Am I correct in saying that if you are primarily using the 1977 edition of the LBBs, that jump torpedoes are still canon for that rule set?
 
Am I correct in saying that if you are primarily using the 1977 edition of the LBBs, that jump torpedoes are still canon for that rule set?

don't they violate the limitiations on Jump Drives elsewhere in the ruleset?

If so, they are of dubious canonicity.
 
Am I correct in saying that if you are primarily using the 1977 edition of the LBBs, that jump torpedoes are still canon for that rule set?
They are not explicitly ruled out by the 1977 LBB, but there is no way to construct them under the rules set as written, which make no allowances for automation. A ship requires at least one crew member, and that crew member must have a cabin (and the accompanying life support).

Fudging the rules to allow for a small, crewless starship does not provide much, if any, benefit, as even the most basic Jump 2 ship cannot be built particularly small (minimum 65-70 Dtons with a 'bridge', 45-50 without, and that's for an M Drive free design), and its going to be hugely expensive compared to even a 100 Dton starship, as the minimum price for any nonstandard hull is 20MCr. That's ten times the price for a standard 100 Dton hull.

Toss in a basic power plant (which is required under the 1977 rules), jump drive and computer, and you are already at 40MCr for your 'torpedo'. By comparison, a spanking new 1977 LBB Scout Ship costs 32.45MCr.

All nonstandard hulls also require three years to build (36 months) regardless of size, compared to 10 months for a standard 100 Dton hull.
 
Which is why everyone immediately looks at Type S Scout/Couriers as the "go to" 100 ton starship to convert for ANY jump torpedo application.

Not me, man, I'm all about the Orrimot when it comes to impossible experimentation*.





* Irregardless of whether or not I've already implicated myself in an earlier post.
 
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