Jumps -- observer time?
- Thread starter PhilB
- Start date
Unless something goes wrong, both reference and aboard time remain synced.
In MT and TNE, minor misjumps may de-sync the two; if doing so, simply roll twice for time, once for the universe, and once for perceived.
ShapeShifter
SOC-13
I'm no Hawking, but if a ship jumps ten light-years, spends a day on another planet, then returns to earth, wouldn't 7301 days have passed for those on earth?
IMTU, I dismiss the claims of so-called "astro-scientists" saying that time changes depending on how fast you are travelling. Poppycock.
IMTU, I dismiss the claims of so-called "astro-scientists" saying that time changes depending on how fast you are travelling. Poppycock.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
The thing is Jump Space is removed from Normal Space. It's another (or possibly 1 of 6, or more) dimension. So the ship doesn't actually break any laws of this reality. It's not moving faster than light* and there's no time dilation. In fact it doesn't have any real (for our reality) speed while in Jump Space. So a week in Jump Space for the ship and crew, and a week in Normal Space for everybody else. Most of the time anyway 
* It may not be moving at all. Jump space is a bit (or lot) like a worm-hole. A short cut under normal space. Like the old folded paper example. Take two star systems 4 hexes apart. That's some 13 light years distance. But a J4 effectively folds the map over on itself so the two star systems are occupying the same space. The jump takes a week to "process" but the ship hasn't actually moved anywhere or changed it's speed. Jump is described a little differently though, with a presumed 1to1 correlation to normal space. IMO all that does is lead to problems like: Then there is a speed involved. And it is faster than light. And you get the whole jump shadow and jump mask mess... better to just ignore the issue. It's a week (for everyone) that nothing in normal space can effect and vise-versa.
* It may not be moving at all. Jump space is a bit (or lot) like a worm-hole. A short cut under normal space. Like the old folded paper example. Take two star systems 4 hexes apart. That's some 13 light years distance. But a J4 effectively folds the map over on itself so the two star systems are occupying the same space. The jump takes a week to "process" but the ship hasn't actually moved anywhere or changed it's speed. Jump is described a little differently though, with a presumed 1to1 correlation to normal space. IMO all that does is lead to problems like: Then there is a speed involved. And it is faster than light. And you get the whole jump shadow and jump mask mess... better to just ignore the issue. It's a week (for everyone) that nothing in normal space can effect and vise-versa.
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Commander Truestar
SOC-13
I'm no Hawking, but if a ship jumps ten light-years, spends a day on another planet, then returns to earth, wouldn't 7301 days have passed for those on earth?
IMTU, I dismiss the claims of so-called "astro-scientists" saying that time changes depending on how fast you are travelling. Poppycock.
Who's days?
Are you defining days on Earth? Or on another body who's days are different.
This is not meant to start a flame war here but it is as the core of increasing assaults on Relativity. The Universe does not care how long your tme measure are nor how they are perceived. Relativity does an admirable job of defining how we sense things. But how we sense the Universe has noting to do with how it exists.
Marc
howardfanatic
SOC-11
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Now here's a discussion I never thought I'd see on a gaming website! IS the general and/or special theory of relativity sound?
And could such a discussion start a flame war!?!
:rofl:
Now here's a discussion I never thought I'd see on a gaming website! IS the general and/or special theory of relativity sound?
And could such a discussion start a flame war!?!
:rofl:
Within the realm of tested speeds, yes, Time dilation has been shown to have happened roughly in accord with Einstein's predictions...
And doesn't occur in jump. So jump 10LY (just under 3 Pc), putz around a week, and come back, and 18-24 days have passed.
And doesn't occur in jump. So jump 10LY (just under 3 Pc), putz around a week, and come back, and 18-24 days have passed.
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Commander Truestar
SOC-13
howardfanatic;347143 Now here's a discussion I never thought I'd see on a gaming website! IS the general and/or special theory of relativity sound? And could such a discussion start a flame war!?! :rofl:[/QUOTE said:Yes, it could start a flame war though this is not my intent.
And while I agree that Time Dialation "seems" to appear(slight divergant from Aramis' point), that is a key point of "Are we seing what is" or "Are we seing what we expect"?
I am in the camp that expects that we will redefine our understanding of some assumptions made. Remember, Albert Einstein said he got the basic idea from the way the tone of a train whistle changes as the train moves away from the listener. But this change is dependant on the listener's perception of the sound. The Universe does not care about the perception or even the existance of the listener(Possible effects excepted: Butterfly effect) nor a time scale developed by said listener's race. Time scales themselves are subjective to the developer's home environment. Events have a duration. We invented time to measure and understand that duration and better understand events. IE: "Time" is not a real property but a concept. In our opinions of course
And Howard? Welcome! We discuss the nature or reality all the time here. Helps us hone our own univeses. enjoy!!
Marc
Except, Marc, that Doppler's pitch shift of wave forms is not just perception, but a measurable phenomenon. It is, in fact, part of the basis for much well tested technology.
Color shift of EM spectra is in fact a measured effect with instruments, not a perception issue.
Oh, and the supposed "assaults on Relativity" generally come from fringe radicals who don't do replicable experiments, don't bother with peer review prior to publication, and whose data handling shows obvious confirmation bias. In short, junk science. Religious hype.
Color shift of EM spectra is in fact a measured effect with instruments, not a perception issue.
Oh, and the supposed "assaults on Relativity" generally come from fringe radicals who don't do replicable experiments, don't bother with peer review prior to publication, and whose data handling shows obvious confirmation bias. In short, junk science. Religious hype.
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Commander Truestar
SOC-13
It is not a dispute of the effcts we have seen but the reasoning behind them. Energy transferrance theory has come a long way since Mr. Hawkins said CSAP's annihilate themselves. Since the research along the lines of the Third Law of ThermoDynamics went after that statement, a broadening slice of research is aimed at that crack in the armor of the sub-Universe. The statement, even by such persons as Mr. Hawking, that CSAP's violate the third law were just the lynch pin for this effort.
Marc
This is probably a dumb question but is there a canon reference that explicitly states that both the reference time and the aboard ship time normally remain synced? (I've always taken the un-synced situation as the norm ... but I may be wrong.)
Commander Truestar
SOC-13
there is not, as far as I can recall, an explicit statement of this, but there are relative proofs. The first comes from Documents including the Starship Operator's Manual(which I can immediately recall from my work desk) which describes the length of time in hours that a jump will last. This is then logically "married" to the tracking of ship movements from ne jump to another through such documents as "The Spinward Marches Campaign". It is easy to put the statements of jump duration (which specifies ~7 days) and specified ship movements(which also specifies ~7 days) to put a 1:1 relationship to travel times in and out of jump space.
Additional "window dressing" evidence comes from statements (again, IIRC, from the Starship Operator's Manual) that jump space is a place where alternate physics exist except inside the jump field, where normal physics are maintained.
Marc
Clue 1: the aging rules don't reference jump induced aging difference. They do include low berth difference and anagathics difference.
Clue 2: The jump process has only one roll for jump durations.
Clue 3: Navy & Scout characters age just as fast (or slow) as worldbound characters.
I know there is an explicit reference somewhere, but it's not in MT nor TNE core.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Well there is this in Marc Miller's Jumpspace article from JTAS 24 (pg 37 - Microjumps):
"...a microjump within a system still leaves an impression that the ship has left; a week
later, it emerges from jump in the same system, to the observer's confusion."
So the Normal Space observer sees the ship jump, disappear, and a week later in his time frame it reappears.
Meanwhile we know aboard the ship in Jumpspace they too experience a week of time passing in their frame of reference.
Just the first place I looked and first reference I found to observed time passage of a jump transition.
"...a microjump within a system still leaves an impression that the ship has left; a week
later, it emerges from jump in the same system, to the observer's confusion."
So the Normal Space observer sees the ship jump, disappear, and a week later in his time frame it reappears.
Meanwhile we know aboard the ship in Jumpspace they too experience a week of time passing in their frame of reference.
Just the first place I looked and first reference I found to observed time passage of a jump transition.
howardfanatic
SOC-11
Move fast! Far Future Enterpirses is selling all 3 JTAS reprint hardcovers for $30 until the 15th. It is one of the best deals I've ever seen!
Commander Truestar
SOC-13
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Oh yeah! Well... I'm only a little jealous
...but you could put that to good use here:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=347087
Unless they're hermetically sealed in plastic, stored in a fire proof safe, in a nuke bunker, on the moon, ...of Pluto! Wouldn't want to put you to too much trouble
Commander Truestar
SOC-13
Oh yeah! Well... I'm only a little jealous
...but you could put that to good use here:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=347087
Unless they're hermetically sealed in plastic, stored in a fire proof safe, in a nuke bunker, on the moon, ...of Pluto! Wouldn't want to put you to too much trouble
I intend to once I get this week done but 12 hour shifts an hour from home base is a 14 hour day just driving and working... And I am humping 4 sifts this week to cover a sick co-worker.
I am sure I will have time later today as this will be one of my long days(Started 15:30 hrs yesterday and will end ~01:00 hrs tomorrow before I sleep). I also have to prep my digitizing system as I cracked a real life collection of Filk tapes from the '80's that a number of us have been hunting for some time...muhahahahah
My advantage was having served the Baroness who owns them for some time
So time will be short..
Marc
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Suddenly I'm not feeling quite so busy as I thought I was, but I'm doubly exhausted in sympathy 
I hear they have this thing called sleep. I think you're fresh out of it
Any chance said Filk (and I'm just guessing they're Traveller Filk, though whatever ) might be hosted somewhere accessible to the masses?
I hear they have this thing called sleep. I think you're fresh out of it
Any chance said Filk (and I'm just guessing they're Traveller Filk, though whatever
) might be hosted somewhere accessible to the masses?Similar threads
