lasers vs. armor

[carrothead]

I'm looking at the armor lists and I understand that reflec and ablat have the second AR to be used for lasers. It makes sense that cloth armor is useless verses lasers but what about combat and battledress? Is the number for those to be used versus lasers also?

 

[mike wightman]

If I understand the armour rules correctly then I think this is the way it works.
Cloth armour has an AR against all weapons, even lasers, of 6.
If you wear reflec and cloth then you have an AR of 6/12, the 12 rating is used only against lasers.
If you wear ablat and cloth then you have an AR of 8/11.<edit> far-traders right, you can't layer ablat, sorry this is wrong please ignore<edit>
Don't forget the armour weights and penalties though.
Now it does say relec can not be worn with combat armour, but there is no such restriction on ablat<edit>- oh yes there is, please ignore<edit>.

Hope this helps.

 

[carrothead]

Cryin out loud what a dip$%&* its right in front of my face on page 207, the double astericks. Forget I ever asked that one.

 

[mike wightman]

Don't worry. You're talking to someone who, many moons ago, thought PGMP and FGMP damage was cubed.
Until I read the footnotes on the weapons table in Book4-Mercenary, that is.
Oh how the players laughed as they generated their new characters

 

[carrothead]

Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. No way are you going to have an ar that high against a laser weapon. You wouldn't do any damage! No, the only armor worth anything against lasers is ablat and reflec because they have the ar rating after the slash. Nothing else is effective against lasers. Cloth would not do crap to stop a laser blast. So, if I am wearing cloth and reflec I would have an AR against non lasers of 6 and against lasers of 6, not 12. I just thought that combat armor would provide something against lasers being a hardened type of suit.

 

[far-trader]

If I may just clarify it for you carrothead, being 99.9% sure I've got it right

The only armor that can be worn with other armor (or even just clothing) is reflec. The one exception is that reflec is not worn with combat armor (or battle dress), no doubt because they are already better and it would defeat aspects of those armors.

Reflec adds only to the laser defense (the number after the slash. So in the example of the Cloth armor and Reflec your AR would be 6/6

I think where Sigg is erring is taking the 'adds to AR' to plainly. It adds in the effect of adding AR 0/6 to the (for eg.) Cloth AR 6/0 for a combined AR of 6/6. I can't see where he's getting the idea otherwise.

Ablat is too bulky to be worn with another type of armor but does have some ballistic value.

IMTU it is the player's choice to layer the reflec above or below the other armor (unlike the rules that say it's only worn under). One note, if worn over anything you are a very shiny target

(can be a good thing if trying to be found or to avoid sunbleaching your favorite Hawaian shirt

If worn under the other armor then non-laser hits do not damgae it but if worn over the other armor each non-laser hit reduces it's AR by 1.

If the reflec is worn over the other armor then laser hits do not damage the other armor but if worn under then the other armor's AR is reduced by 1 for each hit from a laser.

The old house rule above basically grants an automatic critical hit against the armor only and only for ballistic armor hit by lasers and Reflec hit by ballistic rounds. Note too that Ablat suffers the same effect but only for each laser hit.

Combat Armor (and Battle Dress) should really be listed as a split AR of equal rating (eg. TL12 Combat Armor AR 7/7) because it is equally effective against both ballistic and laser weapons.

Reflec cannot be layered with itself to any advantage, though if using the MTU notes above, wearing Reflec both over and under other armor could provide some insurance if you run into both ballistic and laser weapon fire. In this case the AR vs lasers is still just 6 but if the outer Reflec layer is shot full of holes the inner one will still be intact, at least until the lasers burn off the ballistic armor and they open fire with ballistic weapons again

Something else to note, only Combat Armor and Battledress (of the modern armors) include head protection. Not important unless you allow called shots.

And as a curiosity I seem to recall that there was an article and house rule allowing the heavy archaic armor to grant it's full AR (the first number) against lasers if highly polished.

Also check the note for the AR for archaic armors on page 207 if you haven't already, not that your average Traveller is going to be found sporting say a suit of Chainmail but it could happen

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[mike wightman]

Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense.

No, it doesn't , but those are the rules.

No way are you going to have an ar that high against a laser weapon. You wouldn't do any damage!

Correct, and I can't find any errata to fix this.

No, the only armor worth anything against lasers is ablat and reflec because they have the ar rating after the slash.

Again, the rules say different.

Cloth would not do crap to stop a laser blast.

Stop it, no, but the laser would have to burn through the cloth armour first, so it should offer some protection IMHO.

So, if I am wearing cloth and reflec I would have an AR against non lasers of 6 and against lasers of 6, not 12.

The rules say 12 unfortunately.

I just thought that combat armor would provide something against lasers being a hardened type of suit.

It does, its full AR. More if you wear ablat under it

Now that I have played

advocate I think you have spotted a hole in the rules. This should be posted over in the T20 errata to find out the official ruling.
Personally I would give lasers an armour piercing rating against all armour types apart from ablat, reflec and combat armour so that they do, under the rules, cut through light non-rigid armour as you suggest.

 

[carrothead]

Sorry Sigg, I am going to have to go with far-trader on this one but thankyou for your help.

 

[mike wightman]

That's Ok

, having read through far-traders post I have spotted my mistake with ablat and have edited my earlier post.

Reflec adds only to the laser defense (the number after the slash. So in the example of the Cloth armor and Reflec your AR would be 6/6

I think where Sigg is erring is taking the 'adds to AR' to plainly. It adds in the effect of adding AR 0/6 to the (for eg.) Cloth AR 6/0 for a combined AR of 6/6. I can't see where he's getting the idea otherwise.

This is where the rules need a lot of clarification.
If you shoot a laser at someone with a flak jacket or cloth armour on then the AR of the armour protects, there is nothing in the rules to suggest the armour is ignored.
Now add a layer of reflec. The armour rating of cloth is not listed as 6/0 it is 6, so the cloth/reflec combo is 6/12, otherwise there is no point in wearing reflec with cloth .
Here's another solution, perhaps the reflec should increase the AC (much like a chameleon coating) without increasing the AR.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Reflec adds only to the laser defense (the number after the slash. So in the example of the Cloth armor and Reflec your AR would be 6/6

I think where Sigg is erring is taking the 'adds to AR' to plainly. It adds in the effect of adding AR 0/6 to the (for eg.) Cloth AR 6/0 for a combined AR of 6/6. I can't see where he's getting the idea otherwise.

This is where the rules need a lot of clarification.
If you shoot a laser at someone with a flak jacket or cloth armour on then the AR of the armour protects, there is nothing in the rules to suggest the armour is ignored.
Now add a layer of reflec. The armour rating of cloth is not listed as 6/0 it is 6, so the cloth/reflec combo is 6/12, otherwise there is no point in wearing reflec with cloth .
Here's another solution, perhaps the reflec should increase the AC (much like a chameleon coating) without increasing the AR. </font>[/QUOTE]The more I look at it the more I have to agree you have the only logical (and therefore correct) interpretation of the rules as printed. I thought Hunter had answered this more definitively in an earlier thread but the only response I can find is not any clearer. I'll have to concede your numbers are right but...

... they are not in the spirit of CT upon which T20 is supposed to be based. In CT Reflec was about equal to no armor for all attacks except Lasers (it did offer a small advantage vs some light attacks: some natural and archaic weapons and body pistols). The other basic armors (Jack, Mesh and Cloth) were effective against most attacks except Lasers where they were about equal to no armor. Combat Armor was about equally effective against all attacks including Lasers.

It's upon this that I base my interpretation above. I agree an OFFICIAL clarification would be great but Hunter has been notable absent since his injury, recovery and seeking a replacement for Rose no doubt taking a toll on his time to read the forums. My apologies Hunter if you have already clarified this, but I can't find it. Again I think this points to a need for a good example filled FAQ. I know, I know I'm this close || to volunteering aren't I

And I might IF I had the actual answers rather than simply my not so humble opinions

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks for looking at it again FT

and I agree that the rules are not in the spirit of CT.

In MT (and Striker/AHL) if reflec/cloth was worn only the best AR applied, although reflec had a much higher value but only against laser weapons.

TNE dropped reflec altogether.

Another possible solution that I quite like is to give lasers an AP value against all but reflec, ablat and combat armour.

Here's hoping there's some sign from a fully fit Hunter soon.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
TNE dropped reflec altogether.

And iirc the TNE personal lasers couldn't cut warm butter while the high energy weapons were deadlier than ever

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Another possible solution that I quite like is to give lasers an AP value against all but reflec, ablat and combat armour.

Yes I'm warming to that idea too

Hmm, how would you then handle layerd Reflec vs Laser AP? Presume for argument the Cloth/Reflec combo of AR 6/12, just as an exercise to occupy the little grey cells while we wait for clarity.

 

[mike wightman]

How about giving personal laser weapons an AP of 4 below TL13 and an AP of 5 at TL13+?

 

[carrothead]

Hmmm, this is where I carve out my own pocket universe. I am going with the 6/6 answer. If you shoot someone with a laser weapon the AR is 6 because of the reflec. If you hit someone with a pistol the AR is 6 because of the cloth. If you are not wearing ablat, reflec, combat, b.d. then you have no protection against lasers. Makes sense to me. Adding it to make a 6/12 does not make sense. Example, I hit someone with a laser rifle that does 3d10 and he is wearing our combo of armor. with an AR of 12 against lasers if I even rolled 3 10's I would do no damage! Drop two of the dice you have 10 points of damage left and 10 points of AR left= no damage???? Doesnt make sense to me.

I do agree that there is nothing in the rules saying the armor is ignored though and that is where the confusion is from. My idea stays in the spirit of classic traveller IMHO. If your just wearing reflec and you get into a bullet fight your gonna be in the hurt locker, vice versa with cloth vs. lasers. Opinions? Flames?

 

[mike wightman]

No flames.
I think the 6/6 way is in keeping with CT. The problem is with the rules as presented in T20.
Now if you want to risk the Canon Police knocking down your door at 4 am...

Just kidding.
It's your Traveller universe, use the rules to run the game the way you want it to be and if you don't like a rule then change it.
Without this discusion I wouldn't have noticed the problem until it came up in a game.
Forewarned is forearmed, as the saying goes.

 

[justacaveman]

The standard T20 rules say that Reflec armor stacks with other armor (except Combat Armor and Battle Dress). Since Reflec is only useful against lasers, and is only available at TL10+, while hand held laser weapons are available at TL8+, this doesn't seem to be too great a problem.

The anti-laser capabilities of Reflec is the primary reason that the Imperial military uses Gauss Rifles and Pistols instead of Lasers.

All that being said, I do use a house rule that gives lasers an AP bonus of +3. This bonus applies to all armors except Reflec and Ablat. This would reduce the combination of Cloth and Reflec to AR9 vs lasers (3 for Cloth + 6 for Reflec). Laser weapons still wouldn't do much against Reflec + Cloth, but that's why the military still uses slugthrowers.