I would (and do) assume you could hook the TL 13 Laser Rifle up to the mini-fusion generator powering the PGMP-13. That would increase the total price by another KCr 22, but you could shoot all day long and only have to recharge every 24 hours.
General The infantry laser problem
- Thread starter Carlobrand
- Start date
Which is fine for troops in battledress but for the poor sobs in the regular TL12 infantry that makes up the majority of the imperial lift infantry battalions it’s not exactly ideal. A generator is a heavy bit of kit for an infantryman to hump up a hill.
This brings up the question of course of why the lift infantry isn’t all in battledress and equipped to TL15 but that’s probably beyond the scope of the thread.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
"Tech level 10: The basic infantry weapon becomes the advanced combat rifle capable of firing a 4 cm RAM grenade. Personal uniform consists of the combat environment suit, and all helmets incorporate radio communication gear and IR/light amplification night vision sensors.
Tech level 11: Combat armor is available which can be pressurized for operation in a vacuum, or hostile environment, but expense precludes general issue.
Tech level 12: The gauss rifle is introduced in limited numbers as a sniper weapon, expense precluding general issue. The individual grav belt is occasionally used for scouting purposes.
Tech level 13: All infantry is generally now in combat Armor and equipped with gauss rifles.
Battle dress is issued to selected assault troops.
Tech level 14: A higher proportion of the infantry is equipped with battle dress, and the standard small arm for such troops becomes the PGMP-13.
Tech level 15: Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the FGMP-14. The gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops."
Tech level 11: Combat armor is available which can be pressurized for operation in a vacuum, or hostile environment, but expense precludes general issue.
Tech level 12: The gauss rifle is introduced in limited numbers as a sniper weapon, expense precluding general issue. The individual grav belt is occasionally used for scouting purposes.
Tech level 13: All infantry is generally now in combat Armor and equipped with gauss rifles.
Battle dress is issued to selected assault troops.
Tech level 14: A higher proportion of the infantry is equipped with battle dress, and the standard small arm for such troops becomes the PGMP-13.
Tech level 15: Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the FGMP-14. The gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops."
That adds 56kg to the powerpack, however. It's not even a battledress weapon, really, and inside 2km you may as well just use the PGMP-13 anyway.
In Book 4. the generator is 7 kgs. The regular 200-shot pack is 4 kgs. (Both are TL 13, so for TL 12 troops, the question does not arise.)
The 60 kg and 80 kg weights for the PGMP-13 and FGMP-14 power packs are in error IMHO.* They would obviously be unusable even for battledress wearers. If you use those weights, the choice between the then-misnamed PGMP-13 and the laser rifle does not arise, since carrying the PGMP as an individual weapon is not possible.
*EDIT: Or are they? Reading the text again, it may actually be the intention. Also, Striker apparently enables battledress users to carry up to 200kg.
The 60 kg and 80 kg weights for the PGMP-13 and FGMP-14 power packs are in error IMHO.* They would obviously be unusable even for battledress wearers. If you use those weights, the choice between the then-misnamed PGMP-13 and the laser rifle does not arise, since carrying the PGMP as an individual weapon is not possible.
*EDIT: Or are they? Reading the text again, it may actually be the intention. Also, Striker apparently enables battledress users to carry up to 200kg.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You have to look at the combat environment your infantry is operating in.
If they're basically taking long range potshots at each other while entrenched, there definitely is a role for the laser rifle.
Close quarters urban warfare, gauss personal defence weapon.
If they're basically taking long range potshots at each other while entrenched, there definitely is a role for the laser rifle.
Close quarters urban warfare, gauss personal defence weapon.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
For the sake of argument and illustration purposes that means:
- 10x 10 round magazines = 100 rounds
- 7x 15 round magazines = 105 rounds
- 5x 20 round magazines = 100 rounds
- 4x 30 round magazines = 120 rounds
- 1x 100 round belt = 100 rounds
This is TRUE.
It IS possible to rapid fire your way through 60 rounds fairly quickly - even when having to reload every 10 rounds - particularly when the magazines are sitting there on the table in front of you, ready and waiting to be used up.
However, lets look at this from a position of logistics and equipment carrying capacity for your "average infantry grunt" who gets trigger happy.
Let's be excessively generous and assume that the ammo that everyone is firing is snub pistol ammo (30g for 6 shots = 5g per round).
If 10,000 rounds are fired (by all parties to the firefight) ... that's 50kg of ammo expended.
If 10,000 rounds are fired (by all parties to the firefight) ... that's 1667 magazines of ammo expended.
That's a LOT of "logistical tail" for that particular firefight.
Increase it up to 100,000 shots fired and you're looking at 500kg of ammo and 16,667 magazines of ammo expended.
For people who like to refer to "real world data" for things like this:
So, basically ... ~200 shots carried per infantryman (or 200 shots MINIMUM).
How many shots does a Laser Pistol/Carbine/Rifle power pack provide? (CT Striker 3, p31)
- TL=9/8/9 = 50 (Pistol), 50 (Carbine), 100 (Rifle)
- TL=13/13/13/ = 200 (Pistol, Carbine and Rifle)
), battery technology has advanced enough that "ammo anxiety" is significantly avoided, especially for mechanized infantry with access to vehicles capable of "repowering" the battery packs used by the lasers. No need for "ammo dumps" and the logistical tail of manufacturing and safe storage required for precision machined expendable rounds ... all you need is electrical power and you can top up your laser battery and keep shooting.You don't need to transport "ammo" for distribution, you need to transport "fuel" for power plants (which at these tech levels will almost always be fusion).
For the poor grunts carrying them, the important stats for weight are the minimum weight for the weapon to operate at all, the weight per shot/burst, and how big a 'lump' the ammo comes in (big capacity packs/magazines are nice for reducing time spent reloading, but also mean you can't divide the weight up).
LBB1 laser rifles are heavy, and have 4kg power packs (so also heavy and not divisible) holding 100 shots, for 40g per shot. That's heavy, and given their less than stellar performance compared to military rifles in LBB1&4 they are a specialist weapon - good for sniping at lightly armoured targets, mainly. Striker's TL-13 laser rifle is even heavier, but has twice the shots in the same weight of power pack (still heavy, but not as bad), but the great power compared to projectile rifles gives it some utility against heavily armoured troops (though as previously discussed it's expensive and not very flexible compared to grenade launchers).
Logistics people are going to care about weight per shot and the bean counters paying for it all are going to worry about cost. As long as enough charged power packs are provided to allow recharging without leaving the troops unarmed the weight per shot become almost nothing (but the minimum weight is tons, due to fusion reactors not being small things), but even the LBB laser packs are pricey (you can buy a gauss rifle for the price of a power pack), and the TL-13 ones are very expensive (as are the lasers themselves).
I think the buy-in price in both credits and kilograms limits how many lasers you'll see on a battlefield.
I rather like the way laser small arms work in my preferred rules set (TNE/FF&S), where they ignore flexible armour, but are just stopped by rigid armour. They are excellent for cleaning up light infantry, but are not a good general purpose small arm.
LBB1 laser rifles are heavy, and have 4kg power packs (so also heavy and not divisible) holding 100 shots, for 40g per shot. That's heavy, and given their less than stellar performance compared to military rifles in LBB1&4 they are a specialist weapon - good for sniping at lightly armoured targets, mainly. Striker's TL-13 laser rifle is even heavier, but has twice the shots in the same weight of power pack (still heavy, but not as bad), but the great power compared to projectile rifles gives it some utility against heavily armoured troops (though as previously discussed it's expensive and not very flexible compared to grenade launchers).
Logistics people are going to care about weight per shot and the bean counters paying for it all are going to worry about cost. As long as enough charged power packs are provided to allow recharging without leaving the troops unarmed the weight per shot become almost nothing (but the minimum weight is tons, due to fusion reactors not being small things), but even the LBB laser packs are pricey (you can buy a gauss rifle for the price of a power pack), and the TL-13 ones are very expensive (as are the lasers themselves).
I think the buy-in price in both credits and kilograms limits how many lasers you'll see on a battlefield.
I rather like the way laser small arms work in my preferred rules set (TNE/FF&S), where they ignore flexible armour, but are just stopped by rigid armour. They are excellent for cleaning up light infantry, but are not a good general purpose small arm.
IMO the squad weapon at TL15 is the RP-A, weight like an LMG and that battle dress lift capacity allows for a sized down battery/power plant.
As for fusion power packs, clearly they exist, I would tend to use veh power with the inefficient power gen but smaller and eyeball it against the LBB8 robot plants.
Oh yes, finally consider equipping most of your armored BD knights with a shield. A slab of Bonded superdense held angled should help with those pesky RAM weapons, and heavier shields could help with the bigger energy weapons.
As for fusion power packs, clearly they exist, I would tend to use veh power with the inefficient power gen but smaller and eyeball it against the LBB8 robot plants.
Oh yes, finally consider equipping most of your armored BD knights with a shield. A slab of Bonded superdense held angled should help with those pesky RAM weapons, and heavier shields could help with the bigger energy weapons.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You also have to calculate how much ammunition expenditure achieves the result you want.
IMHO teh advantage of lasers on ammo is on more sustained opperations, mostly on behind the enemy lines units (commando units, guerrillas...) or other situations where you can expect short bursts of intense firefight followed by periods of inactivity.
In such situations, the logistical burden of ammunition is close to none once the unit and its equipment is in the zone. If they have access to the world's powergird, they can recharge from it. If they have not, any vechicle will do, or even some solar pannels they can deploy.
See that also in training, the fact of not using ammunition is an advantage.
In such situations, the logistical burden of ammunition is close to none once the unit and its equipment is in the zone. If they have access to the world's powergird, they can recharge from it. If they have not, any vechicle will do, or even some solar pannels they can deploy.
See that also in training, the fact of not using ammunition is an advantage.
Ok, I have been replaying the Fallout series of games recently, and have been pondering armor as such. Mostly the idea of having both physical and energy defenses.
Though I have generally ignored reflec in my games and added very toned down laser weapons. the standard lasgun has the same penetration as a regular rifle but has increased range.
A amusing note, in Snapshot lasers have the same AP requirement as Automatic Weapons, though they only get the adjacent -4 shot if they miss the primary target.
Though I have generally ignored reflec in my games and added very toned down laser weapons. the standard lasgun has the same penetration as a regular rifle but has increased range.
A amusing note, in Snapshot lasers have the same AP requirement as Automatic Weapons, though they only get the adjacent -4 shot if they miss the primary target.
Yes, the PIRA were instrumental to the growth of the IED problem during the troubles.
Currently, we're seeing some similar strides made by the Mexican cartels.
This along with the plethora of "lessons learned" from Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria/Ukraine by the bomb-makers.
EOD?
I agree on this point (though I’d add that part of the qualification for gov employees here is to reload from an ammunition pouch attached to a belt web).
What you say from striker makes sense, I don’t have access to those books and have mostly been using MgT where even at higher TLs the ammunition count stays the same.
It’s probably edition may vary thing.
I will still point out though that the backpack itself is a concern of mine. Depending on size it reduces the carrying capacity of the infantryman. Some of this would be mitigated by mechanisation ofc but I’m not overly convinced.
Grav bag.
I'm not sure how much need TL12 troops would have for power on that scale unless you were equipping them with PGMP 12s, but you could give them a powerbot, basically a grav-lift or legged robot mule with a power plant. I understand Imperial military has a thing about bots, but I think that's primarily warbots. I don't think they'd have a problem with robotic packmules.
Book 4 has been pretty badly mauled by later work.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If you look at it from the interstellar scale, the most expensive aspect of the military is transporting men and equipment around.
Hence, an interstellar military will invest a lot in the protection of an asset, that takes time and money to move around, so rainbow underwear becomes more of as rounding error.
However, at the planetary level, arguably star cluster, or even subsector, your manpower pool might be considerably larger, so reinforcements are cheaper.
Hence, an interstellar military will invest a lot in the protection of an asset, that takes time and money to move around, so rainbow underwear becomes more of as rounding error.
However, at the planetary level, arguably star cluster, or even subsector, your manpower pool might be considerably larger, so reinforcements are cheaper.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That's the fault of the later work.
I am actually a big sword worlds fan ( Not the whole Nordic space dork nonsense), I have designed most of the my TL-12 Infantry and Cavalry Vehicles with a charge rack for the PGMP-12 Gunner. I also use a lot of Drones for Reconnaissance, Target Acquisition & Electronic Warfare.
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