local gravity vs. Imperial 'standard doors'

[jcrocker]

It used to be planetary gravity was left a bit vague. It wasn't flat-out defined as part of the UWP. But I was flipping through the T5 book and found the blank world map templates for the different sized worlds. Down in the corner it helpfully gave some stats like volume and maybe more importantly, gravity.

So an average size 4 world has 0.5 g, and a size 6 has 0.75 g and so on. Great.

Then you remember how in CT much was made of how tall the Zhodani were due to the lower gravity of their homeworld, I think 0.85 (which isn't one of the standard offerings in T5) but on the Traveller Map Zhdant stats out at A 6 5 4 7 C 8 – F, so at size 6, it should have gravity of 0.75 standard g. Only 80 million, though.

So how did they get the rep as being the tall people?

Just clicking around at random High population worlds in the Spinward Marches, Enope Louzy and Rhylanor all clock in at 0.5 g - I was thinking Admiral Plankwell must have towered over Jaqueline when he took the throne, but nope, Capital is only 0.625g naturally, so it wouldn't have been that much of a difference.

Zivijie, Heroni, Menorb, Efate all have the same size and 0.75 g and should be able to give the Zhodani basketball team a run for their money. Rethe is also 0.5 g, so they'd love a chance to slam dunk a few past the zho. Three-pointers might be hard on their sticklike arms, though.

On the flip side, Lunion and Mora are size A which gives a healthy 1.25 g - so not only does Duchess Delphine have a rep as being a piece of work, she's a short piece of work, unless she grew up with the grav plates set on 'standard'.

A little farther afield, Deneb has 60 Billion people at 0.625g. In Corridor, at 0417, Irasumshu has another 80 Billion at 0.625 g, and at TL-6, I don't want to move there.

CT Darrians were even taller than the Zhodani, weren't they? Now they wouldn't even stand out in a crowd of average Imperials.

Should gravity have been defined?

Obviously it can be ignored or handwaved away [your homeworld? it has a... ...really really dense core. No, denser. Yeah, three billion years ago your planet had a collision and most of the crust was knocked off, it's a tiny little world that's mostly core, so no, you can't disguise yourself in the unconscious Zhodani's navy uniform to steal their battleship.]

And poking around the Traveller Map shows a number of Zhodani worlds with a little higher gravity so they're not all uniform in height, again, unless everyone leaves the grav plates on.

Obviously all doors on world X are proportional to local grav, so if you're on Mora, the Rhylanor tourists have to duck, and the Mora's tourists feet dangle when they're eating at Rhylanor Denny's. Maybe that's a big consideration for tourism, who knows.

But how tall are all the doors in the Imperial Navy? I haven't broken out the T5 deckplans, but there are large number of people that will be bonking their heads on the wall when they go through doorways if they aren't careful.

 

[David Johansen]

With artificial gravity being available at TL9 and interstellar trade, perhaps grav plates are the norm in most starports, star town establishments, and noble residences.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

And you all laugh at the tall Stormtrooper...

With artificial gravity being available at TL9 and interstellar trade, perhaps grav plates are the norm in most starports, star town establishments, and noble residences.

That is what I figured, and I think it has come up in one of my games. Also, I made mention of the lower gravity on the Capitol when people were there. So, yeah, I do work with local gravity, and when I am serious I work in things like color and temp.

 

[Whipsnade]

Should gravity have been defined?

If a referee wanted to? Sure.

For everyone at all times? Hell, no.

Does "adjusting" height for home world gravity add enough to your setting and/or adventure to be worth the work? Answer that and you'll answer your question. Other people will have different answers.

Getting back to this "low gravity = tall people" idea, is that actually factual? Or is it something repeated so often in science fiction that people think it's factual? I don't actually know. Do you?

Assuming the "low gravity = tall people" idea is true, what about strength? Growing up in a low gravity field should limit the strength of any PC or NPC who grew up there. Do you adjust strength for gravity? How about endurance for that matter?

Or guns. Do you adjust the range of every slug thrower in the game? There're actually rules for that in the game. And then there's sighting. A gun sighted in for 200m in a 1 gee field won't be sighted in for 200m in a 0.625 gee field. Do you adjust sighting too?

How about lasers? It's far easier to blind someone with a laser than wound or kill them in a more conventional sense. You don't need as much power, neither do you need to aim as well. Do you take account for that? Does everyone wear laser-proof googles all the time?

Camouflage. Leaving aside things like snow and plant life, camouflage that works under one star and in one atmosphere isn't going to work under another star in another atmosphere. Are you adjusting that?

How much time are you going to spend making the thousands of adjustments gravity, stellar wavelength, atmosphere, and everything else require? How much time does that compare to playing the game?

You've got your answers to those questions, I've got mine, and everyone else has their own.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

If a referee wanted to? Sure.

For everyone at all times? Hell, no.

True, we do want, but very few of us have the resources to. Well, that would be my answer. :devil:

Does "adjusting" height for home world gravity add enough to your setting and/or adventure to be worth the work? Answer that and you'll answer your question. Other people will have different answers.

There is this thing called being helpful, this doesn't seem to be doing that well.

But yes, I do think it could add quite a bit of cool flavor to a setting.

Getting back to this "low gravity = tall people" idea, is that actually factual? Or is it something repeated so often in science fiction that people think it's factual? I don't actually know. Do you?

Actually, I'm not sure either, but I think it may have its roots in space medicine and xenobiology. But in my ATU yeah, it holds.

Assuming the "low gravity = tall people" idea is true, what about strength? Growing up in a low gravity field should limit the strength of any PC or NPC who grew up there. Do you adjust strength for gravity? How about endurance for that matter?

Well, since they may come from a high tech world I can just assume they have gene-therapy and implants and body sculpts and of course just straight up random human genome things. But since I have instituted an Aging system by TL is suspect I will now have to set out rules to adjust characteristics by Local G. Dangit, more work. Grumble, grumble. Still, thanks for the reminder to account for that.

Or guns. Do you adjust the range of every slug thrower in the game? There're actually rules for that in the game. And then there's sighting. A gun sighted in for 200m in a 1 gee field won't be sighted in for 200m in a 0.625 gee field. Do you adjust sighting too?

Of course not, that is what the software is for. It adjusts and then I line up the shot and pull the trigger. Manual adjustments are like so low tech, Heather. Eww.

How about lasers? It's far easier to blind someone with a laser than wound or kill them in a more conventional sense. You don't need as much power, neither do you need to aim as well. Do you take account for that? Does everyone wear laser-proof googles all the time?

Yes, it is and usually counts as mayhem or possible straight up assualt which can can have serious consequences. So, yes. Probably not, some Sophonts might not be susceptible to laser blinding, others may have some natural or artificial defense such as polarizing corneas. Or just wear cool shades with a laser resistant coating. And of course most (para)military helmets probably have that as a standard flash proofing.

Camouflage. Leaving aside things like snow and plant life, camouflage that works under one star and in one atmosphere isn't going to work under another star in another atmosphere. Are you adjusting that?

No, I just chose a few random variables on the template, throw a switch or two and again, my slick high tech armor or skinsuit does that. Duh.

How much time are you going to spend making the thousands of adjustments gravity, stellar wavelength, atmosphere, and everything else require? How much time does that compare to playing the game?

You've got your answers to those questions, I've got mine, and everyone else has their own.

Yeah, but mine were actual answers which I think is what the OP was looking for and not so much the non-answers you gave, though giving credit where due, you did remind me to take some factors into account which I hadn't yet. So. Maybe they were useful after all. Damn you Fortune-Cookie-Advice-Man, you win again. :devil:

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Oh yeah....

I think the doors are a standard 2 meters by 1 meter, maybe 1.5.

Dangit, now I am wondering of that is true too.

But for now that is my answer. And you can trust me, I am after all a Naval Architect. :coffeesip:

 

[Condottiere]

I first encountered the increased size trope in Leiber's A Spectre Is Haunting Texas, and it last came up in The Expanse.

 

[whartung]

How about lasers? It's far easier to blind someone with a laser than wound or kill them in a more conventional sense. You don't need as much power, neither do you need to aim as well. Do you take account for that? Does everyone wear laser-proof googles all the time?

Chadwick I think actually commented on this in some design notes. Basically, they don't talk about blinding with lasers in the rules or the game because they don't want to talk about blinding with lasers in the rules or the game.

Simply, they don't want a GAME where "blinding with lasers" is a thing. At all. It's a crummy game. It's no fun.

Imagine a mid to high TL infantry MOS with not just a survival roll, but a blindness roll, that's even harder to pass. Because lasers. Because blindness.

So, we don't talk about blindness.

 

[jcrocker]

Getting back to this "low gravity = tall people" idea, is that actually factual?

It is in Classic Traveller, when the Zhodani were mentioned, their tall stature and its cause defined in black-letter law. I'm not going to dig up the reference.

Yes, there are many many things that, if needed, the ref can use to remind the players that they're not on Regina any more. And I've used them, and you've used them, and many people have used them, and they've worked great.

Magnus von Thornwood is right on a few counts - it can be cool setting flavour, but I was wondering if this is a helpful thing to define. I guess the low-g natives will just have to get really good at ducking when they go through a door, or request transfers to the ships built at low-g planets.

 

[Whipsnade]

So, we don't talk about blindness.

That's right. We don't talk about blindness because it isn't fun. Just as obsessing over jots and tittles - some unproven - isn't fun either.

You want to import the "Low gee = Taller" trope into your game? Be ready for your players to take that inch and run a parsec with it.

 

[Whipsnade]

It is in Classic Traveller, when the Zhodani were mentioned, their tall stature and its cause defined in black-letter law.

Really?

I'm not going to dig up the reference.

I will because, as usual in these situations, what we think we remember is just part of the story.

Alien Module 4: Zhodani, page 12, Zhodani Society, Physiology:

They tend to be tall and lithe.

(emphasis mine)

Note the use of the word "tend". When producing "fluff text", GDW rarely wrote in absolutes.

All of the physiological characteristics of Zhodani are the result of two factors: the original gene pool of the humans who first inhabited Zhdant, and the minor mutations or developments which have take place during the 300,000 years that they have lived on their planet.

(emphasis mine)

Note "original gene pool", "minor mutations or developments", and - most importantly - "300,000 years".

Their height and physical build are both consequences of Zhdant's 0.85G surface gravity

That's the bit we all remember while conveniently forgetting all the bits that come before and after.

Basic complexion has been shaped by environmental factors which selected specific traits during evolution while in Zhdant.

(emphasis mine.)

Note "environmental factors" selecting traits "during evolution".

The ability to digest certain proteins which are native to Zhdant but undigestible to off-world humans is likewise an evolutionary adaptation.

(emphasis mine)

Note "evolutionary adaptation".

There is little doubt that the conditions on Zhdant were responsible for much of the physical evolution which place on pre-civilized Zhodane.

(emphasis mine)

Note "physical evolution".

What does the "Physiology" section actually tell us? First, that the Zhodani tend to be tall. Second, that their physiological characteristics are the result of their original gene pool and their evolution over 300,000 years.

We're next told their height is due to Zhdant's gravity. We're also told their complexion is due to environmental factors and that they can digest proteins other humans cannot because those proteins are only found on Zhdant.

The section tells us that the Zhodani evolved over 300,000 years and some examples of that evolution is their height, build, complexion, and the ability to digest certain proteins.

The Zhos tend to be tall because of their gene pool and because they evolved for over 300,000 years on a 0.85G world.

How many humans evolved in Enope, Louzy, or Rhylanor? How long have humans lived on Enope, Louzy, and Rhylanor? If newly wed Mr. and Mrs. Munchkin moved to Rhylanor, will their daughter grow up to play in the WNBA?

I've read Beak of the Finch and I'm familiar with the evolutionary concept of punctuated equilibrium but, We Made it and the Smoke Ring aside, you're not going to produce NBA players in a few generations just because they're growing up on a low gee planet.

YMMV.

 

[jcrocker]

...you're not going to produce NBA players in a few generations just because they're growing up on a low gee planet.

YMMV.

The Marches have been settled from the year 350 on, Deneb even longer, so depending on the zip code they're in, that's what, up to 600 to 650 years? 20-ish generations?

Obviously I hadn't read all of that lately, thanks for the reminder.

But why didn't you mention this the first go-around? My ticket says "Admit One", I'm not paying extra for additional lectures.

 

[Whipsnade]

But why didn't you mention this the first go-around?

I thought folks would look it up themselves, then you wrote you couldn't be bothered.

So I figured, why not?

 

[kilemall]

It is in Classic Traveller, when the Zhodani were mentioned, their tall stature and its cause defined in black-letter law. I'm not going to dig up the reference.

Yes, there are many many things that, if needed, the ref can use to remind the players that they're not on Regina any more. And I've used them, and you've used them, and many people have used them, and they've worked great.

Magnus von Thornwood is right on a few counts - it can be cool setting flavour, but I was wondering if this is a helpful thing to define. I guess the low-g natives will just have to get really good at ducking when they go through a door, or request transfers to the ships built at low-g planets.

Part of the reason I like assigning actual heights is to make the scramble to vacc suits that fit all the more interesting, possibly dangerous, and to herd people towards buying fitted suits as a space/exploration professional.

Hull breached events are NOT the time to find out you can't fit into the ship locker suits because you are too tall.

 

[Condottiere]

The alternative would be vacuum bags.

 

[mike wightman]

Part of the reason I like assigning actual heights is to make the scramble to vacc suits that fit all the more interesting, possibly dangerous, and to herd people towards buying fitted suits as a space/exploration professional.

Hull breached events are NOT the time to find out you can't fit into the ship locker suits because you are too tall.

IMTU TL9+ emergency vacc suits are smart enough to adjust themselves to the occupant.

 

[whartung]

Hull breached events are NOT the time to find out you can't fit into the ship locker suits because you are too tall.

I dunno, I think that's more like finding out you weight too much for the stock life vests on a ship.

I would think most emergency vacc suits to be fairly generous in their proportions, and for personal vacc suits, it wouldn't be an issue at all. Better fit is better, but, as you say, during a breach is not the time to be sorting vacc suits.

But that does bring up another question about location. Is a central location the best place? Is there time to actually get them? Wouldn't you need a set for each sealable zone in the ship? Ostensibly during a breach you would lock down the other sections, thus having only one section actually losing compression. Pity the grand dinner in the ball room, but, c'est la vie.

 

[Ackehece]

Chadwick I think actually commented on this in some design notes. Basically, they don't talk about blinding with lasers in the rules or the game because they don't want to talk about blinding with lasers in the rules or the game.

Simply, they don't want a GAME where "blinding with lasers" is a thing. At all. It's a crummy game. It's no fun.

Imagine a mid to high TL infantry MOS with not just a survival roll, but a blindness roll, that's even harder to pass. Because lasers. Because blindness.

So, we don't talk about blindness.

actually in T5 we do talk about blindness.

Lasers Blind in T5

p183 FlashProof is protection against Flash.

p215 senses U Flash r Blind ---No Effect = Blind for 1D Turns

p218 flash is marked as a standard special effect applied to laser weapons

 

[whartung]

actually in T5 we do talk about blindness.

Lasers Blind in T5

p183 FlashProof is protection against Flash.

p215 senses U Flash r Blind ---No Effect = Blind for 1D Turns

p218 flash is marked as a standard special effect applied to laser weapons

Ah, so rather than hand waving blindness completely away, they hand wave away the permanence of it.

Fair enough.

 

[jcrocker]

I thought folks would look it up themselves, then you wrote you couldn't be bothered.

So I figured, why not?

Hey, please don't misquote me.

My exact words were "I'm not going to dig up the reference." I didn't think the rest of the board cared that my copy of the FFE Classic Traveller disk was in the back of a closet somewhere so I didn't add that, but that's a world away from the above.

I wrote my reply after you'd already posted what someone else called the non-answers, so the question is still valid. The quotes from the source on the other hand were helpful, since I didn't have my copy of the source easily available, thanks.

I had another look at The Traveller Adventure, good thing I keep the hardcopy handy. Page 12 has Mora settled in year 60, Regina in year 75 and many other worlds by 300. So assuming that a Traveller game is set around the Fifth Frontier War era, that's anywhere from 800 to 1000+ years on a new planet. Which, odds are, weren't settled from 1g worlds anyway, and portion of those settlers would come from Vilani worlds that had been settled for millennia under wildly different gravities, etc.

You'd asked what real-world examples we have, and of course since we can't discuss the Illuminati's secret colonies without permission, none. But one real-world example of environment change on people comes from another GDW book, Space: 1889 [Heliograph reprint] page 28: "army statistics showed a serious decline in the size and health of recruits from 1800 to 1900, as the slums replaced the country villages as prime sources of young men."

So it seems to me there would be plenty of time for people to adapt to local gravity in the Marches, and give the Imperial Navy Board of Starship Architects many headaches.


Should there be reminders of the nature of the game universe? Absolutely. Making sure you've got right sized space suits in case of hull breach, describing the lighting regime of a red sun, great stuff.

Nailing down the gravity of all worlds in Charted Space as a function of world size, while presenting some benefits, just seems like an accounting exercise most will ignore.