Long cruises and patrols...

[Quint]

So, I'm trying to find (without much success) some rules for how long (sans a jump) a ship can cruise around on a "standard load" or provisions. Fuel is relatively easy to compute, but I simply can't figure out how much more tonnage should be allocated per person per unit of time spent "out in the big black".

The easy answer is that is some variant of 1 week +x days, but that doesn't handle jumps where there is no capability to put on new stores.

Has anyone else figured this out? Am I missing something in T5 or some obscure corner of CT, MT, or MgT? Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks,

D.

 

[Timerover51]

So, I'm trying to find (without much success) some rules for how long (sans a jump) a ship can cruise around on a "standard load" or provisions. Fuel is relatively easy to compute, but I simply can't figure out how much more tonnage should be allocated per person per unit of time spent "out in the big black".

The easy answer is that is some variant of 1 week +x days, but that doesn't handle jumps where there is no capability to put on new stores.

Has anyone else figured this out? Am I missing something in T5 or some obscure corner of CT, MT, or MgT? Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks,

D.

One Traveller dTon of approximately 500 cubic feet can hold 5 long tons of what the military calls Class A rations, which is a mixture of fresh, frozen or refrigerated, preserved, and non-perishable foods. A standard "Class A ration" is assumed to weigh 6 pounds and supply approximately 4400 calories per day per person. Spacecraft personnel are unlikely to use or need 4400 calories per day, so that can be reduced a bit, say to 4 pounds or less. At 4 pounds per day, and allowing a bit for packaging, one ton should feed 500 persons for 1 day, so 1 dTon of rations would mass about 5 tons, and feed 2500 for one day, or 25 for 100 days, or any mixture thereof. A Traveller dTon of water would contain approximately 3750 gallons of water, and allowing 50 gallons of water use per day per person that is sufficient for 75 persons for one day, and I assume a very high efficiency at waste water recycling onboard ship, say 95% or better, so you can scale your water storage requirement accordingly.

You might also, on very large ships, allow for a 1% sick rate per 100 man-days, and set aside sick-bay space accordingly. For what the military calls PX supplies or sundries, a requirement of 0.125 cubic feet per day or about a pound should be made per person per week.

 

[Spinward Scout]

MgT Pg. 137 and 138 Life Support and Supplies

Although it doesn't say anything about tonnage.

A while back I figured a standard meal could be about the size of an old style TV dinner. 12 inches by 10 inches by 1 inch tall. Add in a 2 inch by 12 inch by 1 inch detachable utility pack with eating utensils, condiments, and beverage powders (or even liquid concentrates), it makes a 12 inch by 12 inch by 1 inch complete meal.

That's actually a lot of food area for one meal.

A food pack for 1 person could fit under a bunk. I never figured out the weight, tho.

Food Module Pack
1 person, 1 month (90 meals)
2' x 2' x 2'
30Cr

Food Module Palette
8 person, 1 month (720 meals)
4' x 4' x 4'
240Cr

Can be found at your local StarshipMart.

 

[Timerover51]

MgT Pg. 137 and 138 Life Support and Supplies

Although it doesn't say anything about tonnage.

A while back I figured a standard meal could be about the size of an old style TV dinner. 12 inches by 10 inches by 1 inch tall. Add in a 2 inch by 12 inch by 1 inch detachable utility pack with eating utensils, condiments, and beverage powders (or even liquid concentrates), it makes a 12 inch by 12 inch by 1 inch complete meal.

That's actually a lot of food area for one meal.

A food pack for 1 person could fit under a bunk. I never figured out the weight, tho.

Food Module Pack
1 person, 1 month (90 meals)
2' x 2' x 2'
30Cr

Food Module Palette
8 person, 1 month (720 meals)
4' x 4' x 4'
240Cr

Can be found at your local StarshipMart.

That is a bit low for likely costs. The current US Army food cost for January 2015 for one person $10.35, while the meal rate charge is $10.45 at the discounted rate, with standard rate at $13.85. In Research Station Gamma, one troy ounce of gold was worth 200 Imperial Credits when gold averaged for the year of 1980 at $615 per ounce, or $3.075 per Imperial Credit. Gold has been running around $1230 per ounce or so, so either the Imperial Credit is now worth $6.15 or, allowing for some inflation, a troy ounce of gold is now worth 400 Imperial Credit, with the Credit still worth $3.075.

That would make the cost of the food in your meal worth either 1.5 or 3 Imperial Credits, and you should figure that processing into a microwavable ready to serve meal will double that. Your food costs, for one month using your example, should be somewhere between 90 to 180 Imperial Credits per person per 30 day month. The 90 Credit figure strikes me as too low, while the 180 Credit figure feels about right.

 

[Spinward Scout]

The current US Army food cost for January 2015 for one person $10.35...

The first TV dinner, sold in 1954, cost 98 cents and contained corn bread stuffing, peas, sweet potatoes, and turkey.

I don't think the modern economic inflation will make it to the 57th Century. The robotic workforce that makes the 57th Century version doesn't have to be paid, either.

 

[Timerover51]

I don't think the modern economic inflation will make it to the 57th Century.

Current economic theory, which I suspect will hold up in the 57th century, would like a low rate of inflation of about 2% to encourage long-term investment, as the investment will be paid off in cheaper money.

The robotic workforce that makes the 57th Century version doesn't have to be paid, either.

They do have to be programmed, maintained, powered, and purchased however. Then you have to consider that some planets, where because of climate or other issues may have much higher food costs than others. On a Desert Planet, you may find yourself paying for the water content of the food that you are taking away from the planet, or being required to replace it prior to leaving.

On a low-population planet, processed meals might not even be available unless imported. The same would hold true for a planet with a low Tech Level, say 3 or less. Canning was not developed on Earth until the early 1800's, and was not widely available until after 1850, so basically Tech Level 4.

 

[GypsyComet]

The first TV dinner, sold in 1954, cost 98 cents and contained corn bread stuffing, peas, sweet potatoes, and turkey.

While not as complex a foodstuff as coffee, I could see a good Terran "soulfood" cornbread become an expensive item once you get very far from Terra. Nothing quite like it.

 

[Timerover51]

While not as complex a foodstuff as coffee, I could see a good Terran "soulfood" cornbread become an expensive item once you get very far from Terra. Nothing quite like it.

Given the sensitivity of some crops and useful plants, like coffee, to soil conditions, I can readily see a large trade in luxury and semi-luxury foodstuffs in interstellar commerce. For Desert Planets, fish or seafood would definitely not be on the standard menu, while Water Planets might have a hard time producing cereal grains in large quantities. Worlds with Very Thin Atmospheres are going to have to produce food in domes, while those with Thin Atmospheres may have limited growing areas.

 

[Selandia]

T5 master text p.344

LIFE SUPPORT
Assign tonnage for Life Support.
Life Support is a job responsibility assigned
to a Steward. Each Life Support
mechanism has a Control Panel.
C Life Support
Type (days) People Tons MCr
Short Term (4) (10) 0 0
Standard (30) (10) 1 1.0
Long-Term (120) (10) 2 2.0
Luxury (10) 1 1.0
Adaptable (10) 1 1.0
Adaptable required for non-human
Luxury require stateroom



have fun

Selancia

 

[WistfulD]

I could have sworn that there were already rules for extending ship run-times.

I think that, while tv dinners are a reasonable approximation of the size and cost per meal for food if you're planning for a 4 week merchant ship run, I think long patrol or scouting missions you might want to start thinking along the insitutional isle of your local grocery store, where the three-bean salad comes in 2 gallon cans.

Timerover, I agree that it being the 57th century, or the presence of robots, etc. does not mean that modern economic theory such as inflation don't exist. If you want post-need societies, play Star Trek as far as I'm concerned. I would say, however, that I doubt that the current relationship between the value of gold and the value of pre-prepared food is particularly correlated to the Traveller universe. Do we have any other yardsticks to use (perhaps a general living expenses cost or value of a ton of agricultural goods?).

 

[mike wightman]

There are rules for extended life support consumables in the CT Beltstrike module.

I'll dig them out and post relevant bits - unless someone beats me to it of course

 

[Timerover51]

T5 master text p.344

LIFE SUPPORT
Assign tonnage for Life Support.
Life Support is a job responsibility assigned
to a Steward. Each Life Support
mechanism has a Control Panel.
C Life Support
Type (days) People Tons MCr
Short Term (4) (10) 0 0
Standard (30) (10) 1 1.0
Long-Term (120) (10) 2 2.0
Luxury (10) 1 1.0
Adaptable (10) 1 1.0
Adaptable required for non-human
Luxury require stateroom



have fun

Selancia

Is that food and stores or is that "life support" in the sense of air supply and purification, waste management and recycling, and air filtration and heating/cooling?

 

[Quint]

Is that food and stores or is that "life support" in the sense of air supply and purification, waste management and recycling, and air filtration and heating/cooling?

Same as I was wondering - 1,111 Cr per meal seems a bit harsh...

(1MCr/30 Days for 10 people and assuming 3 meals per day)

D.

 

[Selandia]

This is a quote, and no further explanation are provided that I know of. No indications are given for replenishment of initial supplies (if included in the p344 cost to start with)

I believe (imho) that this attempt to adress the issue of cost (in term of money and space) involved in extended cruise capability, food or otherwise, as part of a system providing a more sophisticated accomodation design system than CT. I was however unable to figure replenishment cost. Those cost may vary in accordence with starport type and TL.


have fun

Selandia

 

[flykiller]

Is that food and stores or is that "life support" in the sense of air supply and purification, waste management and recycling, and air filtration and heating/cooling?

yes, life support includes more than just mre's ....

I wing it with a simple rule that every basic ship design is able to engage in one month of unsupported deployment operations as-is. every additional two months of unsupported deployment operations requires 1% of ship non-fuel volume devoted to endurance/sustainment cargo. this would include food, regular maintenance spare parts, etc. every month or fraction thereof past this without resupply results in an unrepairable combat hit in random systems, including crew, until the ship is resupplied.

 

[mike wightman]

Here's what Beltstike says:

In long voyages of this type, life support not only costs money but takes up measurable cargo space. Life support costs are paid as in the Traveller rules (Cr2000 per person per 2 weeks, or Cr1000 per week); 150 person-weeks of life-support supplies take up one ton of cargo space and cost Cr150,000. This amount will support one person for 150 weeks, 3 people for 50 weeks, etc. Life support supplies include food, air and water (to replace leakage from the recycling process), and consumable elements of the life support system, such as filters, CO2 absorbers, and so on.

 

[Quint]

Heya Mike, that's exactly what I was looking for! I also like @flykiller's 1% per two additional months of "ships sundries" - probably a way to price that out looking at annual maintenance costs.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in!

D.

 

[Timerover51]

As I do not as yet have it, what is the annual maintenance cost in Traveller 5?

Is it still 0.1% or 1/1000th of the price of the ship?

 

[Quint]

As I do not as yet have it, what is the annual maintenance cost in Traveller 5?

Is it still 0.1% or 1/1000th of the price of the ship?

Can't find any specific rule for annual maintenance in T5, but that doesn't mean it isn't there - I have horrible luck finding stuff in it when I'm looking for it.

D.

 

[WistfulD]

Can't find any specific rule for annual maintenance in T5, but that doesn't mean it isn't there - I have horrible luck finding stuff in it when I'm looking for it.

D.

<Insert comment on T5's index issues.>

We just recently had a thread on robot brains and having to make annual checks to see if they degrade too. I wonder if I can find it.