Long range stunner

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ptah:
Safety is an easy one to postulate. Many drugs can be taken in a big dosage that will be effective for everyone but not kill anyone.

Doctors wish that were true; it would make anaesthesiology much safer. Incapacitating people is inherently hard, because it's really not a natural state for humans to be in, and between differing masses and differing tolerances one person may need 10x the dose of another person, which is often more than the ratio of lethal to nonlethal dose. </font>[/QUOTE]Certainly, certainly. I'm thinking of some of your over-the-counter medications, such as aspirin as examples of medications with a high lethal to nonlethal dosage ratio. Present day anaesthesia certainly is not in this category. I think it's actually quite the opposite as you point out.

I assumed the stunner was based on a substantially higher TL than present, I may have missed something though.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Ptah:
Certainly, certainly. I'm thinking of some of your over-the-counter medications, such as aspirin as examples of medications with a high lethal to nonlethal dosage ratio.

Yes, but you will note the lack of over-the-counter drugs that can quickly incapacitate a human, and you're not looking for just any drug, you're looking at a drug that can knock people out. There are a number of relatively common (if generally illegal) narcotics that can render someone unconscious, but it's not that far from unconscious to death by OD, and it's very rare that they can render someone unconscious in a timeframe that's useful in combat (in particular, a dose sufficient to render someone unconscious in combat has a good chance of lethality).

The last time I recall use of knockout chemicals in combat was in that russian hostage situation a few years ago. Which resulted in something like 25% casualties.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by stofsk:
What about sonics as a stun device?

Realistically, there's not much evidence that sonics can actually stun people (just annoy and possibly startle them)</font>[/QUOTE]They can cause deafness and bleeding of the eyes, ears and nose. They're even used today to combat pirates, because modern law says no ship is allowed to have lethal weaponry onboard. Here's tan article I read.

If you want 'beam hits you and you're unconscious' then that's a lot different to getting stunned - IE momentarily disoriented, long enough for someone to restrain you.

and sound is very hard to direct (a man-portable sonic device won't have a useful range of more than a few meters).

It's the future. It's not hard to say the technology can be advanced. Furthermore, why would you need an operable range of more than a few metres for a sidearm? That's roughly equivalent to a snub pistol.

Another possibility is tying sonics into your ship's intercom system and making it a part of the anti-hijacking defence.

The way I see it, it's another option over tranq guns which may or may not work (tranq dosage being variable).

 

[Icosahedron]

I can see the funny side of Ptah's local anaesthetic round. A shot in the arm or leg or sphincter could be amusing.

I've postulated a high tech nerve agent that is targetted to a single purpose - telling the brain to go to sleep. All it does is trigger the body's own mechanisms so there is no danger of overdose (telling the brain to sleep twice has the same effect as telling it once) but it has a near-instant effect, much like a post-hypnotic suggestion. Is this feasible, all you medics?

 

[Bob Weaver]

Originally posted by stofsk:
What about sonics as a stun device?

I've long seen sonic weapons as needing a great deal of handwavium technology to be effective. First to make sound waves behave not like waves; i.e. to stay concentrated in a beam instead of propagating in all directions. Second, to make sound capable of rendering someone unconcious instead of merely deafened. I have never heard a convincing SF explanation of how that works.

Best Regards,

Bob W

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by stofsk:
They can cause deafness and bleeding of the eyes, ears and nose. They're even used today to combat pirates, because modern law says no ship is allowed to have lethal weaponry onboard.

True, but I don't think it's expected to do more than cause some degradation of crew quality.

If you want 'beam hits you and you're unconscious' then that's a lot different to getting stunned - IE momentarily disoriented, long enough for someone to restrain you.

Not much evidence for sonics even being able to do the latter; flash-bangs and the like are about as good as sonics get.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />and sound is very hard to direct (a man-portable sonic device won't have a useful range of more than a few meters).

It's the future. It's not hard to say the technology can be advanced.</font>[/QUOTE]It's not a limit of technology, it's a limit of physics. We can hit the theoretical limits today.

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Icosahedron:
I can see the funny side of Ptah's local anaesthetic round. A shot in the arm or leg or sphincter could be amusing.

I've postulated a high tech nerve agent that is targetted to a single purpose - telling the brain to go to sleep. All it does is trigger the body's own mechanisms so there is no danger of overdose (telling the brain to sleep twice has the same effect as telling it once) but it has a near-instant effect, much like a post-hypnotic suggestion. Is this feasible, all you medics?

I like it, within what I'm thinking of. Maybe this is something you can train to resist. So all those special forces guys that train with sleep deprivation, and all those nobels who are used to partying for days on end may be able to resist.

I'm not a medic, but work with biochemistry and biology. There is so much to learn about the details of systems biology that I'd not rule it impossible.

To me the key is Higher TL. At current TLs everything I've suggested is pie in the sky but it is not fundamentally impossible. I want to say we are far away from finding a chemical with all the properties we wish, so 2 or 3 TLs?

 

[Ptah]

On "beam stunners" how about an electromagnetic effect instead of sonic. Certainly would be a higher TL depending on better manipulation of EM field and understanding of how the brain works. The gun sends out a pulse tailored to overload the CNS of the target and stun them. Sort of like an EMP for brains, maybe only effecting higher brian function so you are "stunned."

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Ptah:
I like it, within what I'm thinking of. Maybe this is something you can train to resist. So all those special forces guys that train with sleep deprivation, and all those nobels who are used to partying for days on end may be able to resist.

Hmm, maybe, they've all gotta sleep sometime though, and this signal would be BIG, telling the brain "Hey, you've not slept for a week, drop now!"
I'd allow a roll against Endurance, though, with maybe a DM for training or 'uppers'.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Ptah:
On "beam stunners" how about an electromagnetic effect instead of sonic. Certainly would be a higher TL depending on better manipulation of EM field and understanding of how the brain works. The gun sends out a pulse tailored to overload the CNS of the target and stun them. Sort of like an EMP for brains, maybe only effecting higher brian function so you are "stunned."

Ohhh, you want our Neural Rifles! Why didn't you just say so. Aisle 17, right across from the plasma bazooka's. You can't miss them, there's a big red tag sale on them. The PBs that is, the NRs are our regular everday low price here at Merc Hardware

Neural Weapons might have been in a Digest or somewhere else earlier but my first recollection of them is MegaTraveller. An outgrowth of remote Neural Activity Sensors and Psionic Helmet tech they disrupt brain activity causing "unconsciousness (i.e. a stun)" on a hit though it sometimes has other random effects such as "disorientation, mind assault or even death."

TL-16 Neural Weapons

Pistol is 0.3m long, 0.5kg unloaded, costs KCr225
Pistol battery is 0.5kg, costs KCr30

Rifle is 0.5m long, 1.5kg unloaded, costs KCr125
Rifle battery is 1.0kg, costs KCr50

They use the standard to hit difficulties and both have a max range of long with a flat penetration of 10 over the full range. "If the pen is at least equal to the target armor value, handle hit damage based on the success level. On exceptional success the target goes unconscious; on normal success implement a 3D mishap... Superficial: Disorientation of target for 1 combat round. Minor: Disorientation for 1D combat rounds. Major: Mind assault on target at a psionic strength of 2D. Destroyed: Death of target."

I think I was unhappy with the official penetration style (figured normal armor was transparent to Neural fire) and made up some pen/atten numbers for Psionic Shield (both tech and talent) but don't recall them or see them. I think I handled damage a little differently too. The numbers are probably in the notes (wherever those are) for the adventure I designed (a long time ago in a galaxy far far away) around the PCs being chosen to field test some experimental prototypes

Plasma Bazookas are from TNE if you're wondering

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ptah:
On "beam stunners" how about an electromagnetic effect instead of sonic. Certainly would be a higher TL depending on better manipulation of EM field and understanding of how the brain works. The gun sends out a pulse tailored to overload the CNS of the target and stun them. Sort of like an EMP for brains, maybe only effecting higher brian function so you are "stunned."

Ohhh, you want our Neural Rifles! Why didn't you just say so. Aisle 17, right across from the plasma bazooka's. You can't miss them, there's a big red tag sale on them. The PBs that is, the NRs are our regular everday low price here at Merc Hardware

.....Plasma Bazookas are from TNE if you're wondering

</font>[/QUOTE]Well the forum has paid off well today, learned two new things.

Can you tell I don't have MT or TNE? Now I wish I hadn't passed on MT back in the 80's; but being short of funds and already having a lot of LBBs made it a hard sell at the time.

Hey do you got any psionic grenades?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Ptah:


Hey do you got any psionic grenades?

Fresh out

(great idea for some R&D fun though!)

We do have a couple crates of plasma grenades around here somewhere... (posted them a while back somewhere in the forums...)

 

[mike wightman]

Double Adventure 6 Divine intervention has an experimental stun carbine.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Well guys, no psionic grenades, The (Zhodani) Consulate's secrecy laws prevents discussion of such things...

seriously tho, IMTU I have extrapolated if we have tranq rounds, and its a liquid, its a no brainer to have tranq-gas grenades.

After all, most natives to tainted atmo worlds are already acclimated/ treated for, or are used to the affects, and not everyone has a rebreather mask, or protective mask!

Under Imperial War Laws, its listed as a police riot agent, not a nerve gas weapon.

 

[Liam Devlin]

For Long range..simply put it in a RAM GL, and voila' drop/shoot it 100+ meters away!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Two points:
1) Actually, you can get sound to work in a beam - the weapons used to fend off the Somali pirates awhile back were of this sort, I believe.

2) There is a long-range disorientation/disruption weapon being worked on. Ever been microwaved? It evidently hurts like a son-of-a-gun, but doesn't leave any lasting effects. Funny to watch, too.

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
2) There is a long-range disorientation/disruption weapon being worked on. Ever been microwaved? It evidently hurts like a son-of-a-gun, but doesn't leave any lasting effects. Funny to watch, too.

This differs from a maser?
Any links?

 

[mike wightman]

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002766.html

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002433.html

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002313.html

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002133.html

There are more, just scroll through the less lethal and the lasers and ray guns archives on that site...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Yup, Sigg, that's the one (002766.html) - it has actually already been tested on Americans, just not in real riot situations. You would have to be pretty gung-ho to stay in it. Even the baddest volunteers tended to not stay more than a few seconds.

 

[shadowdragon]

ultrasonics are your friend...


http://www.holosonics.com/technology.html

200db at 40k Khz = vomiting, ears and nose bleeding, complete physical incapacitation, and prolly deafness.