Look, a Snub Pistol...

[Condottiere]

Intent probably is that military smallarms should either cause instantly lethal wounds, or wounds that are survivable with minimal trauma.

Once the conflict becomes existential, or no one cares about public relations (not the same as propaganda), the rules tend to be ignored.

 

[McPerth]

Once the conflict becomes existential, or no one cares about public relations (not the same as propaganda), the rules tend to be ignored.

In fact, as I already expressed in this old thread, I'd say it mostly depends on the retaliation capacity of the enemy... Not having a force to enforce it as War Laws, it becomes a gentleman's agreement: I won't as long as neither do you.

 

[Enoki]

Although these aren't revolvers normally, there are pepper gas one and two shot pistols, as well as a magazine fed version (larger) that are quite small. They use CO2 propellant so they wouldn't be suitable for a lethal round that relied on kinetic energy to work.

 

[Enoki]

My understanding is that things like hollow point rounds are illegal for war but legal for LE. Treaties cover wars, hollow point can be better for LE due to limiting over penetration and stopping ability in pistol rounds.

Question mark possibly if LE is using tear gas or hollow points on rebellions/insurgencies.

Law enforcement more commonly, at least police, use subsonic rounds that only work at closer ranges and have little penetration. Hollow point is usually reserved for law enforcement in situations like jails or prisons where stopping power and lethality is acceptable.

 

[Diveguy]

Law enforcement more commonly, at least police, use subsonic rounds that only work at closer ranges and have little penetration. Hollow point is usually reserved for law enforcement in situations like jails or prisons where stopping power and lethality is acceptable

My understanding is that things like hollow point rounds are illegal for war but legal for LE. Treaties cover wars, hollow point can be better for LE due to limiting over penetration and stopping ability in pistol rounds.

Question mark possibly if LE is using tear gas or hollow points on rebellions/insurgencies.

"Hollow points" are NOT illegal for war - and have been used in conflict. The varied conventions cover ammunition/bullets designed to cause excessive suffering/pain - a subjective statement, at best.

 

[aramis]

My understanding is that things like hollow point rounds are illegal for war but legal for LE. Treaties cover wars, hollow point can be better for LE due to limiting over penetration and stopping ability in pistol rounds.

Many localities have restrictions on LEO round choices. Alaska, for example, requires mil-spec ball ammo in .35 to .45 cal.

Just because the Geneva Conventions and the law of the Sea treaties don't outlaw it doesn't mean it's not outlawed.

As for Rebellions and insurgencies, I concur with McPerth

 

[Condottiere]

I think it's a grey area, though for the more, ah, civilized militaries, the potential public and diplomatic backlash might not be worth the potential advantages, if any.

Then you have the Germans in the Great War making a formal protest against the usage of shotguns by the Americans.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

Snub means short, i.e. snub-nosed = short barrel, i.e. low muzzle velocity.

There is nothing intrinsically non-lethal about the Snub Pistol, it does more damage and penetrates better than a regular revolver with explosive ammo (4D damage). It can fire Tranq, but so can a rifle... It's still a conventional gun-powder gun.

LBB4, p37:


I guess we could build it today, it would just be banned by the Geneva Convention (explosive ammo).

Geneva Convention only applies to weapons used by the military against other nation's militaries.

For a civilian crew defending their ship from pirates or hijackers, no worries.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

If you look at the Imperial Marines standard equipment, they don't seem to abide by the Geneva Conventions!
Mind you, they don't use snub-pistols either.

 

[kilemall]

If you look at the Imperial Marines standard equipment, they don't seem to abide by the Geneva Conventions!
Mind you, they don't use snub-pistols either.

Pretty sure P/FGMP would be outlawed by Geneva convention addendum for use except for alien invasion.

3600+ years and countless worlds contributing to species survival guarantee probably changes perspective.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Pretty sure P/FGMP would be outlawed

They're technically "high tech flamethrowers" in both physics and practical application ...

 

[kilemall]

They're technically "high tech flamethrowers" in both physics and practical application ...

Hmm. More like Munroe effect kinetic bolt throwers. With radiation in the MgT versions.

 

[aramis]

Geneva Convention only applies to weapons used by the military against other nation's militaries.

For a civilian crew defending their ship from pirates or hijackers, no worries.

Law of the Sea treaty applies outside UN approved borders... and it also has some considerations... such as requiring non-lethal measures be used and ignored by the belligerent before lethal force can be used. Likewise, it's entirely the Skipper's choice on whether to authorize use of force, but if the admiralty or the UN don't agree, the skipper's personally liable. The crewmember using the force may also be liable.

Then there's the issue of flagging state. the flagging state can deny a captain the right of self-defense of the crew and/or vessel. US vessels have to observe US federal law in US territorial waters; they're expected to operate under US Law or international law while in non-territorial waters or foreign territorial waters, and foreign law when more restrictive in their territorial waters... as limited by the Law of the Sea treaties still in force.

There's no where on earth one isn't subject to some bit of law or another ...

 

[Condottiere]

Otherwise, you'd have widespread piracy.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

Law of the Sea treaty applies outside UN approved borders... and it also has some considerations... such as requiring non-lethal measures be used and ignored by the belligerent before lethal force can be used. Likewise, it's entirely the Skipper's choice on whether to authorize use of force, but if the admiralty or the UN don't agree, the skipper's personally liable. The crewmember using the force may also be liable.

Then there's the issue of flagging state. the flagging state can deny a captain the right of self-defense of the crew and/or vessel. US vessels have to observe US federal law in US territorial waters; they're expected to operate under US Law or international law while in non-territorial waters or foreign territorial waters, and foreign law when more restrictive in their territorial waters... as limited by the Law of the Sea treaties still in force.

There's no where on earth one isn't subject to some bit of law or another ...

Still not seeing why any of that is an issue with snub pistols in Traveller.

The classic ones in the book are revolvers. Put 2 rounds of tranq, 2 rounds of solids and 2 rounds of HEAP and you've pretty much covered the "non lethal first" issue.

US Federal law has issues with explosive bullets in civilian hands. Some states have additional laws.
If you're on a US flagged ship, yeah, you're right, you're still under US law.

On the other hand, at TL7-8, there's not much reason for 10mm HEAP. At TL10-12, when Diplo armor is effective enough that hijackers might be wearing it, or you're dealing with pirates in armored vacc suits... yeah, I can see the logic there.
I suspect that if the US hangs in there until we get to TL11, the law will change. Heck, with some of the court cases and bills to repeal the NFA, it might be before that.... which would be really interesting.

For our purposes, though, the Third Imperium doesn't have issues with people having ... well, anything on thier ships . There's LL0-ish when you're outside the planetary law. Nuclear ship-to-ship missiles are a grey area where a non-military ship is going to either not have them or have to jump through legal hoops. If you stop at an LL0 world and buy FGMP-15's for you whole crew for "shipboard security" the IISS Customs Boat might shake their head at a poor choice of indoor weapon, but not be able to confiscate them or even write you a ticket until you walk outside the ship planet side.