Lots of Amber worlds in Dulinor Space

[Blue Ghost]

Hands huh?

https://youtu.be/APyz8Ye0IxE?t=218

 

[77topaz]

Weirdness report; I just clicked on Hrike, hex 0530 in Aslan space. And instead of getting a popup over the map, a new tab opened in my browser showing the pop. Some HTML code flashed for a split second before the popup appeared.

Just an FYI.

Yeah, it seems to do that for certain sectors as a whole, mostly in the rimward part of Charted Space, for some reason.

 

[inexorabletash]

Weirdness report; I just clicked on Hrike, hex 0530 in Aslan space. And instead of getting a popup over the map, a new tab opened in my browser showing the pop. Some HTML code flashed for a split second before the popup appeared.

Thanks - bug in the site. Fixed.

Apostrophes in the sector name were triggering the bug, so Reaver's Deep, Staihaia'yo, etc. were affected.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Ohhhh. Glad I could help

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Again inexorabletash, thank you. Sorted. Have everything synched up.
Blue Ghost, based on the CURRENT map data...

Sector	Total	Green	Amber	Red	% Amber
Alpha Crucis	78​	60​	18​	​	23.1​
Antares	478​	408​	56​	14​	11.7​
Core	546​	466​	80​	​	14.7​
Corridor	207​	180​	23​	4​	11.1​
Dagudashaag	559​	482​	76​	1​	13.6​
Daibei	430​	366​	56​	8​	13.0​
Delphi	323​	278​	40​	5​	12.4​
Deneb	334​	277​	47​	10​	14.1​
Diaspora	476​	374​	88​	14​	18.5​
Empty Quarter	134​	107​	26​	1​	19.4​
Fornast	518​	445​	60​	13​	11.6​
Glimmerdrift Reaches	42​	32​	10​	​	23.8​
Gushemege	532​	463​	52​	17​	9.8​
Hinterworlds	2​	2​	​	​	0.0​
Ilelish	450​	383​	67​	​	14.9​
Ley	316​	273​	39​	4​	12.3​
Lishun	552​	477​	75​	​	13.6​
Magyar	130​	94​	31​	5​	23.8​
Massilia	516​	419​	96​	1​	18.6​
Old Expanses	401​	342​	45​	14​	11.2​
Reaver's Deep	57​	48​	8​	1​	14.0​
Reft	86​	75​	11​	​	12.8​
Solomani Rim	311​	228​	76​	7​	24.4​
Spinward Marches	273​	198​	60​	15​	22.0​
Trojan Reach	58​	46​	10​	2​	17.2​
Verge	207​	172​	28​	7​	13.5​
Vland	491​	425​	66​	​	13.4​
Zarushagar	481​	429​	50​	2​	10.4​
Third Imperium	8988​	7549​	1294​	145​	14.4​

Allegiance	Total	Green	Amber	Red	% Amber
Third Imperium, Amec Protectorate	23​	19​	4​	​	17.4​
Third Imperium, Domain of Antares	1152​	983​	154​	15​	13.4​
Third Imperium, Domain of Sylea	1878​	1586​	273​	19​	14.5​
Third Imperium, Domain of Deneb	701​	552​	122​	27​	17.4​
Third Imperium, Domain of Gateway	303​	258​	41​	4​	13.5​
Third Imperium, Domain of Ilelish	1625​	1398​	209​	18​	12.9​
Third Imperium, Domain of Sol	1365​	1069​	256​	40​	18.8​
Third Imperium, Domain of Vland	1635​	1422​	193​	20​	11.8​
Third Imperium, League of Antares	12​	9​	3​	​	25.0​
Third Imperium, Lancian Cultural Region	181​	153​	26​	2​	14.4​
Third Imperium, Luriani Cultural Association	57​	49​	8​	​	14.0​
Third Imperium, Sylean Worlds	25​	22​	3​	​	12.0​
Third Imperium, Vegan Autonomous District	31​	29​	2​	​	6.5​
Third Imperium	8988​	7549​	1294​	145​	14.4​

 

[Blue Ghost]

Hmm, Sylea and Sol seem to be "dangerous" places by TAS criteria, whatever that may be. They write ups should prove interesting in the coming years.

 

[Garnfellow]

Hmm, Sylea and Sol seem to be "dangerous" places by TAS criteria, whatever that may be. They write ups should prove interesting in the coming years.

Well, keep in mind those numbers reflect a potentially erroneous mass application of T5's rules for travel zones. High pop worlds are more likely to have high government codes and high law levels, and therefore are more likely to have travel zones imposed by the T5 formula. This has the counter-intuitive effect of making older, more established regions more likely to have red or amber zones than frontier areas.

Since much of the Solomani Rim is occupied, a bunch of red zones don't seem amiss. But Sylea? That seems wrong.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Checking on the erroneous part is simple enough. Do a crosstab of the sum of Gov+Law by Zone. Again, I would like to point out that the Zone has been used as two different things in the same field. People have mixed kept its use separate.

A.TAS Travel Codes
B.Imperial Interdiction/Warning

OTOH in a related post in another thread, I pointed out TAS origins. Do you really want these vagabond scum coming to your structured and orderly planet? Or a utopia where Wesley Crusher by accident steps in the forbidden zone of the day and the sentence is o: Death? (that episode sucked) Perhaps that is why Travellers (players) love the frontier so much in the OTU. Imperial Culture may be far far different than we realize...

T4 Milieu 0 p.39:

The Traveller’s Aid Society (TAS): A few words from Ve Nu Lant, TAS Chief Executive Officer, 145-0008. “In those early years of expansion, many people just packed a bag and headed off into space, hitching rides on scouts, traders, and even warships. It didn’t take long for an informal self-help network on the ‘net to start up, passing Traveller’s tips, places to go to, places to avoid, what to eat, and what not to. So one summer, I collected the stories coming back, and put together the first Crowded Space guides. They were instant hits, but many people needed more practical help. So with a few friends, I set up the Travellers’ Aid Society. We started off with ‘net lectures, devised a simple color code for planet safety, and in Year -16 we opened up our first planetary office. It was a great hit, helping people to get oriented, providing a meeting place and information exchange, and even a few beds for the night. The rest, as they say, is history.”

:rofl:

 

[tjoneslo]

Again inexorabletash, thank you. Sorted. Have everything synched up.
Blue Ghost, based on the CURRENT map data...

What would be more useful here is to calculate out the median number of amber and red zone worlds per sector, and the standard deviation. While some places look (by eyeball) to be more dangerous than others. I would like to see what statistics say.

 

[mike wightman]

I still think amber and red zones should be at the referee's discretion. Aren't they supposed to be temporary designations and subject to changing over time?

 

[ovka]

I still think amber and red zones should be at the referee's discretion. Aren't they supposed to be temporary designations and subject to changing over time?

I agree. I can see a rule that is applied to an existing Amber Zone which further designates the world with the Pz or Da classification, but not actually giving the amber zone.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[whartung]

One click to dump all records into a text file?

Once the data files are in a directory on my local machine, they are good to go. My issue is it is manual. It is just that I have to click on the main page 121 times and hit Raw Sector Data. Tab over to the that web page on the browser and change to TabDelimited in the URL. Save the result as the name of the sector with .txt extension.
My old database was a smarter as it allowed the data to be retrieved in SecondSurvey format and parse out the meta (subsector names, etc.), but it will be a while to rebuild that functionality. I still had to click and save 121 times...

FYI all of the sector data is downloadable en masse from the GitHub project for TravellerMap.

MOST of it is in TAB format, but not all of it.

But these seem to be the masters, and whenever there's a change, I guess he just restarts and reloads the server.

 

[inexorabletash]

MOST of it is in TAB format, but not all of it.

T5SS data is in tab delimited format, coming out of Marc's database. Unofficial data is a mix of tab delimited, t5-style column delimited, or legacy sec, depending on the author. Since everything started off as SEC it has seemed easiest to just support "whatever" to benefit authors since it's easier to iterate; the same parsing code is used when people render custom data using the poster (etc) APIs.

But these seem to be the masters, and whenever there's a change, I guess he just restarts and reloads the server.

Yep. I can also flush the state and reindex the database via admin APIs without an actual program restart, although that doesn't flush image caches.

 

[Garnfellow]

Checking on the erroneous part is simple enough. Do a crosstab of the sum of Gov+Law by Zone.

By erroneous I meant indiscriminate, unintentionally over-writing canon. I've got no problem with using Gov + Law as a guide, but it shouldn't take referee discretion out of the process.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah, that sounds right. Again, my stuff is packed away so I can't double check just now, but the travel codes were partially based on current events. At least amber was, I can't recall about red.

 

[Drakon]

Remember, Amber Zones in the Imperium are a TAS designation, not a government label. The Traveller's Aid Society deems that combination of government and enforcement to be hazardous to travellers. It does not mean the world is particularly dangerous to its own citizens, who should know the laws and how not to break them. A visitor, on the other hand, could draw excessive Police harassment or incarceration for carrying nail clippers in the wrong pocket, being dressed like an outworlder, or just advertising that they've read the wrong books.

Still, for a capital world, I would hope we can appeal the decision to the Traveller's Aid Society or at least figure out what corrective actions can be taken to fix any damage to Lemish's trade and economy.

Now, it occurs to me that, by the rules, worlds with populations a million or less are labelled dangerous. One possibility that occurs to me is that Lemish's population is quite sparse. The majority of the planet is still quite wild, with almost the entire population confined a region half the size of the United States. Lemish is big and if you get stuck up a tree, it will be some time before Colonial SAR can get to you, assuming you've followed the proper protocols before venturing outside the civilized zones.

But even in that event, its not like the wilds of Lemish are more wild than the wilds of.. Regina, or Jewell.

I know the beaucracy can seem a bit intrusive and those questionaires they have at Customs can seem burdensome, but really, is "excessive" paperwork any reason to condemn an entire world to Amber zone status?

Could make for some interesting story ideas.

Drakon; so maybe I can drop a hot dog wrapper, but I better not say this place looks like a pigsty. Is that right?

First off, Lemish is not a pig sty. While agriculture is the main stay of the Lemishian economy, only a small fraction is devoted to hog farming.

The industrial and urban areas of Lemish are quite clean as any modern Imperial city. I am sure this is all a huge misunderstanding on the part of the Traveller's Aid Society.

While Lemish does respect freedom of speech, slanderous and inaccurate statements will be dealt with proportionate to the defense of Lemish.

 

[Blue Ghost]

*snip*
While Lemish does respect freedom of speech, slanderous and inaccurate statements will be dealt with proportionate to the defense of Lemish.

Which on Lemish, is what, fifty lashes?

In all Traveller seriousness, I seem to recall that JTAS and its news feed had an "Amber Zone" article every so often for new adventure seeds. If the TAS Amber designation is dependent on current events, then should it be on the semi-official Official Traveller map?

 

[aramis]

Well, keep in mind those numbers reflect a potentially erroneous mass application of T5's rules for travel zones. High pop worlds are more likely to have high government codes and high law levels, and therefore are more likely to have travel zones imposed by the T5 formula. This has the counter-intuitive effect of making older, more established regions more likely to have red or amber zones than frontier areas.

Since much of the Solomani Rim is occupied, a bunch of red zones don't seem amiss. But Sylea? That seems wrong.

Marc explains 3 or 4 in the novel...

But, even under the non-rule guidance in TTB, extreme law (10+) is grounds for amber and/or red...

And DGP established that both a few prison worlds and a few preserve worlds were present in the core.

 

[Garnfellow]

But, even under the non-rule guidance in TTB, extreme law (10+) is grounds for amber and/or red...

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that high law worlds shouldn't ever be red or amber zones. I'm just saying that Law + Gov is too crude a mechanic to be an absolute arbiterer, and we shouldn't use it to overwrite canonical data.

Another thing to look at would be the Strangeness cultural extension. Worlds with high Strangemess (9 or A?) ought to be candidates for the Pz remark, if not amber zones.

 

[Drakon]

Which on Lemish, is what, fifty lashes?

What? oh goodness no. Corporal punishment is reserved for more serious crimes like theft, assault, and smuggling. Slander and Libel, if found guilty in a court of law by a jury of your peers, with your own barrister, results in fines and/or community service, usually with the Lemish Bureau of Tourism.

In all Traveller seriousness, I seem to recall that JTAS and its news feed had an "Amber Zone" article every so often for new adventure seeds. If the TAS Amber designation is dependent on current events, then should it be on the semi-official Official Traveller map?

That would depend on how well Travellermap can handle larger blocks of text. Perhaps this may be accomplished better through Traveller Wiki.

In Lemish's case, there is a thick tainted atmosphere, a limited population, and high law and government levels. This would indicate more systemic issues, either with Lemish (adventure hooks) or with the Traveller's Aid Societies (story ideas about how the nobility deal with the issue). But Lemish is the subsector capital, (why is it the Lemish Subsector and not say, the Tamilaa Subsector?) with a decent infrastructure and economic efficiencies.

Lemeshians may seem a bit intrusive, but such intrusiveness is merely to maintain Lemish's low crime rate. The safety of visitors is important.

It means I need to make some changes to my workup. But not too many. And it should introduce some new ideas and directions.