Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Not sure if this helps but, from HG p44
It would appear that Skill +3 would give that "Professional" bonus and Skill +5 would be a truly superior achievement.
CT Only: Low Passage and You!
- Thread starter Supplement Four
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Not sure if this helps but, from HG p44
It would appear that Skill +3 would give that "Professional" bonus and Skill +5 would be a truly superior achievement.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Damn. Just wrote a long post about skills and skill values in response to Hans...and when I hit send, I lost the post.
CRAP!
CRAP!
Sorry I missed your post. Supplement Four responded pretty much like I would.
Fiat is, IMO, doing something without reasoning it out - consistency is also fiat (ex: always getting +1 per skill level is fiat since it does not account situationally for anything). As a Ref I am tailoring checks to match a given situation, the limits of 2D6 and even a particular character as developed by the Player - even from prior events in the game.
Every check may be unique. For instance, if you are running from combat down a long hall and the door slams open at the other end disgorging a running armed assailant... if you try to shoot him with a laser pistol (not RAW, but standard IMTU) then you are probably gonna hit him - he's silhouetted in a confined space and all. With the laser, good chance you will neutralize his weapon threat if you can see him, despite running. I'm not gonna run that as combat - its one or two rolls, depending on length of hall and the aspects of the NPC, for effect (hitting being a given unless the rolls are a complete miss). If the PC has experience with the weapon he's got a good chance of success, regardless of range. Unless he is wounded, acrid smoke is filling the hall, he's just escaped an explosion, his party is pushing him, etc. etc. Lots of variables, all accommodated by a simple target selection and usually just one DM.
No autofails for me generally (though limited success is another story) - but auto-success sure. Unless there is a good reason for a Vacc-1+ to make a check, they succeed on basic activities.
Using the RAW, non-ordinary 'dangerous' activities (things the PC is attempting to do - not things happening from the environment) are automatic successes for Vacc Suit-2 (+8DM with 10+ target). If say, however, a missile impacts nearby, causing depressurizing of a nearby hull and flying shrapnel - they will tend to get something more along the lines of the RAW 'recovery check' - which is +2 per skill level with a 7+ target. (Depends on how close things are - which I would tend to determine by a throw - not fiat, though the target is chosen by me...)
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
A point I made in that lost post is that we cannot assume that Skill-1 represents the same amount of expertise and training among different skills, or even among all the tasks that uses the skill itself.
In other Traveller editions, all skills provide a +1 DM per skill level. Finito. That's it. It's easier to compare skill expertise.
But, with Classic Traveller, the same skill can have it's skill level represented in different ways in the task. Maybe it's +1 DM per skill level. Maybe it's a +2 DM. Maybe it's a +4 DM per skill level. Or, maybe it's something like, "+1 DM if the character has Skill-2".
Look at the Vacc Suit skill. If the task is to avoid a dangerous situation in Zero-G, then the character's skill is worth a +4 DM. Isn't that the same benefit as a character with Navigation-4 when rolling for directions (+1 DM per skill level)?
But, if the Vacc Suit character does find himself in trouble, then the save to get him out of that trouble is made on a throw where the character gets a +2 DM per skill level (half of what he had before).
This shows that the value of skill levels are not consistent even with the throws involving the same skill. Therefore, we cannot make assumptions in CT that, just because Medical-3 is considered a doctor, that other Skill-3 areas represent like expertise.
This isn't all of what I said in the lost post, but a big point from that post.
In other Traveller editions, all skills provide a +1 DM per skill level. Finito. That's it. It's easier to compare skill expertise.
But, with Classic Traveller, the same skill can have it's skill level represented in different ways in the task. Maybe it's +1 DM per skill level. Maybe it's a +2 DM. Maybe it's a +4 DM per skill level. Or, maybe it's something like, "+1 DM if the character has Skill-2".
Look at the Vacc Suit skill. If the task is to avoid a dangerous situation in Zero-G, then the character's skill is worth a +4 DM. Isn't that the same benefit as a character with Navigation-4 when rolling for directions (+1 DM per skill level)?
But, if the Vacc Suit character does find himself in trouble, then the save to get him out of that trouble is made on a throw where the character gets a +2 DM per skill level (half of what he had before).
This shows that the value of skill levels are not consistent even with the throws involving the same skill. Therefore, we cannot make assumptions in CT that, just because Medical-3 is considered a doctor, that other Skill-3 areas represent like expertise.
This isn't all of what I said in the lost post, but a big point from that post.
Depending on your browser - you may be able to go offline (File|Work Offline in FireFox, for example) and then use the back arrow or directly access the history. [I have to do this on occasions...]Damn. Just wrote a long post about skills and skill values in response to Hans...and when I hit send, I lost the post.
CRAP!
Hans,
Yeah, this is one of the things CT LBB1-3 at least, fails to elaborate on, but are implicit in the example checks. And I believe S4 is referring specifically to Basic LBB1-3 CT chargen, not Advanced...
In Basic CT, Skill-1 represents a trained (career) professional (paid) with some experience (1-2 skills per 4 years being common). Skill-2 is an experienced Pro. Skill-3 is an expert. Skill-4+ is a experienced and exceptional expert.
These are all my opinions based on playing the rules - and on the Doctor example as well. A Doctor, to me, is an 'expert' and requires a 4 to 8 year degree (I consider PhD a Doctor - nominally 8 years of upper education) and an internship of several years (4 sounds good). So a Medic-3 being a Doctor seems reasonable. Bear in mind my definition of 'Professional' is 'gets paid to do a job they are qualified for'.
As for Advanced chargen - I think it pretty much matches your assumptions, but arguable fails to match with the LBB1-3 mechanics. Especially the not insignificant portion that gives +2 and greater skill level DMs.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Another point I made in that lost post is that, in general, Classic Traveller has five skill rankings:
No skill
Skill-0
Skill-1
Skill-2
Skill-3
Sure, there are some Skill-5's out there, or even higher, but those are rare exceptions. Look through Supplement 1. You'll see what I'm talking about. Basic Character generation turns out characters, on average, with the five skill levels I show above.
Skill-3 not only ensure automatic success on some task throws (because you've already got a 5, since 2 in the minimum roll, on a 2-12, 11 point system--that's half! Add to that, modifiers for a high stat, or some other modifier, and there's even a greater chance of auto success), but it also provides a ENORMOUS edge to success on any task.
My post above shows that we can't really compare skill levels across skills (or even with the skill itself), but a light, general comparison would be something like this:
Skill-1 is an experienced professional.
Skill-2 is a senior experience professional.
Skill-3 is a downright expert.
EDIT: Looks like I was posting the same time as BytePro above.
No skill
Skill-0
Skill-1
Skill-2
Skill-3
Sure, there are some Skill-5's out there, or even higher, but those are rare exceptions. Look through Supplement 1. You'll see what I'm talking about. Basic Character generation turns out characters, on average, with the five skill levels I show above.
Skill-3 not only ensure automatic success on some task throws (because you've already got a 5, since 2 in the minimum roll, on a 2-12, 11 point system--that's half! Add to that, modifiers for a high stat, or some other modifier, and there's even a greater chance of auto success), but it also provides a ENORMOUS edge to success on any task.
My post above shows that we can't really compare skill levels across skills (or even with the skill itself), but a light, general comparison would be something like this:
Skill-1 is an experienced professional.
Skill-2 is a senior experience professional.
Skill-3 is a downright expert.
EDIT: Looks like I was posting the same time as BytePro above.
skill zero (1/2 in some printings) isn't really a skill level in the same sense as none, 1, 2, 3, or 4...
Especially since it's explicitly for the GM to allow an unpenalized roll following familiarization - they are, aside from weapons, not mechanically granted, but are restricted to specific skills. Whereas numbered levels are specific competencies acquired by the mechanics of character generation. And No skill at all is a third category; penalizable ignorance.
Especially since it's explicitly for the GM to allow an unpenalized roll following familiarization - they are, aside from weapons, not mechanically granted, but are restricted to specific skills. Whereas numbered levels are specific competencies acquired by the mechanics of character generation. And No skill at all is a third category; penalizable ignorance.
Hah, pretty much identical here - I've even gone to great lengths to match fonts, spacing and forms from my LBBs (hand coded in PostScript). But I think such, being a very largely derivative work, would challenge Marc's copyright. I also don't think I'd do that great a job. But its a nice dream to entertain anyway!
[P.S. - hey, I got a Book X already - hands off!
]Oh - looks like our terminology for CT Basic skill levels is very similar as well.
I might add, that supporting a character with 3+ skills is still doable - just that auto-success is likely in 'standard' checks. I may make checks they face provide negative DMs for lesser skill levels (ala unskilled penalties), are only limited success for lesser skilled individuals (auto-fails with conditions). For instance, a character with the skill Han Solo thinks he has as a gun slinger (he fancies himself in the Brian Daley books as a bit of an expert) would be pitted against a higher skilled gun slinger. Understand this is not to penalize the expert character - but to provide a challenge that might involve more creative roleplay of other character strengths (or roleplayed weaknesses). The PC would be made aware of his opponent's exceptional abilities - because he would be expert enough to recognize them and the opponent would probably also be famous or infamous...
In other adventures, they PC may always succeed at anything they attempt with that skill - its part of their character. Challenging them in other areas is then in order. I mean, anyone decent in math, barring medical conditions, is going to be able to reliable add 1 and 1. A Pilot-3 making routine flights and landings does not need any checks - other parts of the adventure will be reserved for that...
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
[P.S. - hey, I got a Book X already - hands off!
As you were posting this, I made a new thread with that post as I thought it might generate some interesting discussion.
I think another section to add to that book would be a discussion on playing a CT character that only has one skill! Or two or three skills.
Modern rpgs tend to make players look down on CT because they could end up with a character that looks like this:
Starman 569AA9 Age 22 1 Term
Pilot-1
Players seem to think that they need tons of skills and character definition in order to have fun playing the game. I want to show how CT is different, and a character like the above can be the hero of the day--possibly even the most memorabl character that the player has ever played.
Definitely on the 1-3 skill PCs. I generally introduce new Players with some quick adhoc mini-adventures using single term and limited term PCs - often with multiple PCs each so they can get a feel for the mechanics (and die-ing!).
Learning how to take risks in-character and deal with failure is a very important part of the enjoyment and fulfillment of RPing, IMO. Playing limited skill PCs is a rewarding challenge that also tends to encourage memorable character building, IME.
Learning how to take risks in-character and deal with failure is a very important part of the enjoyment and fulfillment of RPing, IMO. Playing limited skill PCs is a rewarding challenge that also tends to encourage memorable character building, IME.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
May as well bring up a couple of points since it doesn't look like low berths are ever going to be discussed again in this thread
Skill 1/2 or 0 depending on edition is for referees to award if they consider it is needed, the character is likely to have had the experience necessary to be exposed to learning the skill to that minimum level during their prior career, or more importantly it is needed in an emergency
Skill 2 is the level of skill awarded by studying the equivalent of a 4 year degree course.
There is an Education stat.
Think about what the Education stat represents for a moment. The general level of education, knowledge, training for a citizen. It doesn't just cover general knowledge, someone with Edu 8 has college level general education, someone with Edu 12 is what? PhD? But in what specialism?
Skill 1/2 or 0 depending on edition is for referees to award if they consider it is needed, the character is likely to have had the experience necessary to be exposed to learning the skill to that minimum level during their prior career, or more importantly it is needed in an emergency
Skill 2 is the level of skill awarded by studying the equivalent of a 4 year degree course.
There is an Education stat.
Think about what the Education stat represents for a moment. The general level of education, knowledge, training for a citizen. It doesn't just cover general knowledge, someone with Edu 8 has college level general education, someone with Edu 12 is what? PhD? But in what specialism?
Edu doesn't have to represent a formal education - it can represent 'equivalent knowledge'.
IIRC, LBB1-3 does not make any explicit statements on EDU, so I'm assuming 8 = college level general education is a Book 4+ thing or assumption. Skill-2 is often not seen till a second term in Basic CT, besides the education, it entails some experience - so something more seen in the second term.
Specialization is in the skills - so an Edu of 12 to me means they could have a degree or the equivalent, but in something like 'general education' or history, etc. In other words I would give DMs when appropriate based on situation and backstory and career - but not any given skill. That last qualifier is to avoid compounding DMs and because the level of skill already abstractly incorporates the individual's attributes (and less abstractly via some chargen modifiers).
For instance, a PC with no admin skill, but high Edu is may be used to a certain amount of red tape - and get +1 DMs dealing with officialdom (note that Admin has one of those +2 per level). When encountering new situations, the highest Edu PC may be given the information I want to impart as something a PC might know.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Look at the CT character generation tables again.
How do you qualify for a roll on the second advanced education table? Education is define as the highest level of schooling received.
Now what is taught in schools? Academic subjects certainly, but also a lot of vocational and technical skills needed by the employers and industries. Many people leave school and go to work and receive no more formal training for the rest of their working lives.
I think S4 and others have it right, skills in CT are the difference from the norm. A starhand on a patrol cruiser may have no skill levels in most of the 'skills" associated with his/her duties. But he/she does have training and education to perform that role.
I think it may have been LBB0 or it could have been the skill use notes in The Traveller Adventure that mention that the Education stat can be the go to characteristic to roll against to see if someone can perform a skill check in a "task" they have no "skill" in.
How do you qualify for a roll on the second advanced education table? Education is define as the highest level of schooling received.
Now what is taught in schools? Academic subjects certainly, but also a lot of vocational and technical skills needed by the employers and industries. Many people leave school and go to work and receive no more formal training for the rest of their working lives.
I think S4 and others have it right, skills in CT are the difference from the norm. A starhand on a patrol cruiser may have no skill levels in most of the 'skills" associated with his/her duties. But he/she does have training and education to perform that role.
I think it may have been LBB0 or it could have been the skill use notes in The Traveller Adventure that mention that the Education stat can be the go to characteristic to roll against to see if someone can perform a skill check in a "task" they have no "skill" in.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Man, that sounds dimly familiar. If you find where it is, please let me know. I'd like to re-read that.
As for the EDU and INT stats, I've always looked at the dichotomy like this: EDU represents a value for learned knowledge, be that formal or informal. Experience is a lot of this (thus your comment above).
INT is your innate smarts--how capable you are at figuring solutions to problems based on your natural ability to comprehend the root of a problem and work out a solution.
Hmm... was curious myself. Didn't find it in LBB0 - which I never really read before*. Engineering and JoT specifically reference Edu in checks (among others), but I don't recall anything about solely Edu based checks in LBB1-3... sounds like something from an adventure or JTAS.
Education is defined as 'the highest level of schooling attained', but I've always taken it as including informal education as well. HG has college available for anyone - regardless of Edu - and doesn't automatically elevate it to any minimum on success. For all intents and purposes, Edu seems treated as a relative indicator of general knowledge rather than indicative of any specific level of schooling... just like Social Standing is treated as people skills more than 'social class and level of society'.
[*LBB0 struck me as droll and too authoritarian in many areas - and with some just plain bad advice, IMO. Didn't 'sound' like Marc, either. Ah, credits say 'written by Loren K. Wiseman'. Okay, so maybe I'm not a big fan - and the example session... whoa! That doesn't help! o:
Adventure 'checks' are all 1D6 - heck, it starts by ignoring dice completely when using 76 Patrons and then uses totally random rolls with nothing to do with the individual PCs whatsoever... heck the second roll even ignores (what there is of it) prior roleplay. Just real glad this wasn't my introduction to RPGs and Traveller!]
o:Adventure 'checks' are all 1D6 - heck, it starts by ignoring dice completely when using 76 Patrons and then uses totally random rolls with nothing to do with the individual PCs whatsoever... heck the second roll even ignores (what there is of it) prior roleplay. Just real glad this wasn't my introduction to RPGs and Traveller!]
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
It could be in one of the adventures. Several of those have short paragraphs on creating throws. I wouldn't be surprised if that's where it is located.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Just checked those two myself. Definitely not there. Either my memory is playing tricks with me or it is hien in a JTAS or an Adventure as you suggest. Was is a JTAS article that explained each characteristic or was it a DGPism.... hmmm
It's going to bug me 'til I find out either way.
While looking I did find the rules in The Traveller Adventure again. Characteristic rolls on 2d or 3d depending on difficulty, the situation difficulty (ref rolls 2d and the result is the target number the player has to get equal to or greater than).
It's going to bug me 'til I find out either way.
While looking I did find the rules in The Traveller Adventure again. Characteristic rolls on 2d or 3d depending on difficulty, the situation difficulty (ref rolls 2d and the result is the target number the player has to get equal to or greater than).
Mind expanding on what 'characteristic rolls' are? (Never had The Traveller Adventure, that I recall.)
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
The Traveller Adventure is a must for someone like you. First off, it's probably the best (certainly the largest) adventure to ever come out of GDW for Traveller. It's a fantastic campaign that uses all aspects of the game: Trading, combat, MegaCorps, espionage, exploration, you name it--it's in there.
MWM really did a great job on it.
Second, this adventure contains the best advice for GM created throws in the entire CT canon.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Basically if you are in a situation where a characteristic roll is required - roll 2d and get less than or equal to your stat. If you want to make it more difficult add a DM.
Easy tasks may sum two characteristics.
Easy tasks may sum two characteristics.
