Low tech ships
- Thread starter Enoki
- Start date
How much technological knowledge are you assuming is available? For example, can I build a TL7/8/9 rocket design using TL5 components?
I could imagine building an "interplanetery" (say earth to moon) ship at TL 5. We know it can be done at TL 6. The most difficult thing at that TL would be life support. The launcher could use a huge gun style launcher and parachutes.
For interstellar ships, would you assume an imported TL-9 Jump Drive or are you assuming a STL ship. Again the long term Life support becomes the most difficult thing to achieve.
I could imagine building an "interplanetery" (say earth to moon) ship at TL 5. We know it can be done at TL 6. The most difficult thing at that TL would be life support. The launcher could use a huge gun style launcher and parachutes.
For interstellar ships, would you assume an imported TL-9 Jump Drive or are you assuming a STL ship. Again the long term Life support becomes the most difficult thing to achieve.
Heck using late TL-7 Science it's possible to put a large Rat in to orbit and recover him alive 5-10% of the time using TL-4 Technology. if you just want to brake Atmo and bring it strait back down that goes up to 50-70% once your past the prototype stage.
anything bigger and the Mass outstrips the energy output of the TL.
anything bigger and the Mass outstrips the energy output of the TL.
Executive Summary: for insystem travel, TL 3. For interstellar travel, TL 6.
Insystem
TL 6 Rockets: fuel consumption to beyond 50,000 km = 2 x world size x payload. Assuming a payload of 10 tons and an earthlike world, fuel consumption is 2 x 8 x 10 = 160 tons. Time to orbit = world size in minutes = 8 minutes. I guess time to 50,000 km would be one combat round, or around 20 minutes. I don't know what the cost is. In the 60s, the Saturn V cost $400 million. So, let's say MCr 100 just for now.
Experimental TL 6 Rockets are produced at TL 3, at ten times the cost, and three times the volume. That makes it BCr 1, 480 tons of rockets (and their air, I assume), and 10 tons of payload.
Either the cabins are pressurized, or else each astronaut is in a primitive rescue ball which contains reclamation machinery and sleeves for working ship controls.
Magic maguffin needed: a handwave for purifying/scrubbing/filtering the air. Either a steampunk-like machine, or an organic technological analogue found on Mars or 3753 Cruithne.
Interstellar
For interstellar travel, the possibility exists at TL 6, with Experimental Jump Drives. The size and cost of Jump-2 drives, they will have a performance of Jump-1, and be one of a kind, custom, hand-made things. In other words, not enough of these to be useful, and certainly not reliable or safe. TL 7 and TL 8 are slightly better, with maybe a dozen of them in the hands of various labs or super-wealthy patrons.
All of this, of course, assumes that the research personnel know what they've got and how to use it. Canonically Terra didn't realize what they had until their prototypes actually started working.
Insystem
TL 6 Rockets: fuel consumption to beyond 50,000 km = 2 x world size x payload. Assuming a payload of 10 tons and an earthlike world, fuel consumption is 2 x 8 x 10 = 160 tons. Time to orbit = world size in minutes = 8 minutes. I guess time to 50,000 km would be one combat round, or around 20 minutes. I don't know what the cost is. In the 60s, the Saturn V cost $400 million. So, let's say MCr 100 just for now.
Experimental TL 6 Rockets are produced at TL 3, at ten times the cost, and three times the volume. That makes it BCr 1, 480 tons of rockets (and their air, I assume), and 10 tons of payload.
Either the cabins are pressurized, or else each astronaut is in a primitive rescue ball which contains reclamation machinery and sleeves for working ship controls.
Magic maguffin needed: a handwave for purifying/scrubbing/filtering the air. Either a steampunk-like machine, or an organic technological analogue found on Mars or 3753 Cruithne.
Interstellar
For interstellar travel, the possibility exists at TL 6, with Experimental Jump Drives. The size and cost of Jump-2 drives, they will have a performance of Jump-1, and be one of a kind, custom, hand-made things. In other words, not enough of these to be useful, and certainly not reliable or safe. TL 7 and TL 8 are slightly better, with maybe a dozen of them in the hands of various labs or super-wealthy patrons.
All of this, of course, assumes that the research personnel know what they've got and how to use it. Canonically Terra didn't realize what they had until their prototypes actually started working.
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
The Jupiter-C, which put the first US satellite into orbit, was basically V-2 technology with solid rocket boosters for final orbital velocity, so essentially Tech Level 5.
In 1953, Werner Von Braun published the Mars Project, showing how to reach Mars using basically V-2 technology. It would not have been easy or cheap, but it could have been done. So, assuming that you are dealing with Earth's gravitational field, I would say Tech Level 5 minimum for interplanetary flight.
However, in Traveller, not all planets with a breathable atmosphere are the size of Earth. If you assume a planet such as Ficant, in the Vilis sub-sector of the Spinward Marches, the possibility of successful interplanetary travel changes. You have a size 5 planet with a standard atmosphere, so your gravitational force is considerably less, about 0.45, so your escape velocity is significantly lower. At that point, solid fuel rockets using cast smokeless powder become a viable option, so you might be able to achieve at least orbit with Tech Level 4. A lot depends on how you divide up your tech levels.
In 1955, the submarine USS Nautilus got underway under nuclear power. As Mongoose Traveller allows for fission power plants, at that point if someone cobbled together a prototype jump drive, the power required was available. The same would hold true for any type of reactionless maneuver drive or contra-gravity lifters. Again, a reduction in planetary gravity would makes things easier.
So, I would say interplanetary travel at Tech Level 4/5 depending on gravitational field, and interstellar travel using a Jump Drive or reactionless drive is possible at Tech Level 6, figuring that Tech Level 6 would represent controlled fission power.
In 1953, Werner Von Braun published the Mars Project, showing how to reach Mars using basically V-2 technology. It would not have been easy or cheap, but it could have been done. So, assuming that you are dealing with Earth's gravitational field, I would say Tech Level 5 minimum for interplanetary flight.
However, in Traveller, not all planets with a breathable atmosphere are the size of Earth. If you assume a planet such as Ficant, in the Vilis sub-sector of the Spinward Marches, the possibility of successful interplanetary travel changes. You have a size 5 planet with a standard atmosphere, so your gravitational force is considerably less, about 0.45, so your escape velocity is significantly lower. At that point, solid fuel rockets using cast smokeless powder become a viable option, so you might be able to achieve at least orbit with Tech Level 4. A lot depends on how you divide up your tech levels.
In 1955, the submarine USS Nautilus got underway under nuclear power. As Mongoose Traveller allows for fission power plants, at that point if someone cobbled together a prototype jump drive, the power required was available. The same would hold true for any type of reactionless maneuver drive or contra-gravity lifters. Again, a reduction in planetary gravity would makes things easier.
So, I would say interplanetary travel at Tech Level 4/5 depending on gravitational field, and interstellar travel using a Jump Drive or reactionless drive is possible at Tech Level 6, figuring that Tech Level 6 would represent controlled fission power.
In game, I presume. CT Book 3 tech charts say "non-starships" appear at TL7 and jump drives appear at TL9. Air/rafts and G-carriers appear at TL8, as does fusion power, which makes it easier both to get into orbit and get from planet to planet. High guard offers a TL7 maneuver drive and fusion plant, so interplanetary's pretty straightforward then, and jump drives are the same as in the Book 3 tech chart.
Then there's MegaTrav, where fusion, maneuver drives and gravitics aren't available until TL9 but the Hard Times supplement offers some interesting lower tech ways to get to orbit, but getting out of orbit and to another planet is the devil.
Don't know about the other formats.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
In MT you can do some odd things. It is possible to build down TL 5 or 6 for interplanetary ships using batteries, solar, and fission. There isn't an option for reaction thrust like a rocket engine or something like Project Orion however.
The fission ship ends up huge and clumsy but you can do one.
As Jump drives start at TL 9 you are kind of stuck there but can easily make the rest of the ship down to a 5 or 6.
Computers, controls, etc., can go down to a 5. That makes for an interesting ship were the controls are electro-mechanical.
CT is more limited in this area.
The fission ship ends up huge and clumsy but you can do one.
As Jump drives start at TL 9 you are kind of stuck there but can easily make the rest of the ship down to a 5 or 6.
Computers, controls, etc., can go down to a 5. That makes for an interesting ship were the controls are electro-mechanical.
CT is more limited in this area.
About jump capable ship, I posted this design some time ago. It's TL8/9 (late 8 early 9), and with MT rules (in post 17 I gave the same ship in MgT rules, and it's quite an improvement)
From High Guard (Mongoose version)
I cant find anything similar in older versions...(although my resource library is sadly lacking)....
I think you had answers to this effect already...
if Jump one is common at TL9, a jump 1, could be available ( but uncommon) at TL8. It wouldn't be out of the range of possibility for a highly experimental prototype could be TL-7
if you want to build a reaction powered star ship, such as a atomic rocket, or fusion torch drive you could manage interstellar flight if you could generate 1 gee of thrust you could manage interstellar flight over short distances in years not decades....of course you do not want to know how much fuel even a nuclear rocket would need...the best projection of fuel use for a nuclear rocket was 22kg per second.
I cant find anything similar in older versions...(although my resource library is sadly lacking)....
I think you had answers to this effect already...
if Jump one is common at TL9, a jump 1, could be available ( but uncommon) at TL8. It wouldn't be out of the range of possibility for a highly experimental prototype could be TL-7
if you want to build a reaction powered star ship, such as a atomic rocket, or fusion torch drive you could manage interstellar flight if you could generate 1 gee of thrust you could manage interstellar flight over short distances in years not decades....of course you do not want to know how much fuel even a nuclear rocket would need...the best projection of fuel use for a nuclear rocket was 22kg per second.
The general concept of a "technological development slope" first appeared (IIRC) in TNE: Fire Fusion & Steel.
Or if that seems a little early, since J1 is supposedly TL-9, and J2 isn't developed until TL-11, you could do a minor retcon "interpretation" and say that J1 is actually TL-10, and that TL-9 J1 Drives are actually an available but uncommon "Early" version of the Standard TL-10 J1 Drive. That would make the earliest prototype at TL-8.
leo knight
SOC-12
And let's remember that discovery TL is not always the same as application TL. Historically, none of the populations that discovered jump drive in the OTU did so at tech levels below 91. Based on this admittedly limited sample, one might conclude that jump drives are not among those devices that can be invented as TL7 and 8 prototypes. But can they be built at TL7 and 8 given a TL9 textbook? That's a different question.One sticking point on jump drives is they are not explained all that well (out of necessity) and that makes it hard to determine how hard it is to make one at lower tech levels if you had knowledge of how they work.
1 This might have something to do with the fact that the ability to build jump drives appears to be one of the definitions of having reached TL9, but that's a can of worms I suggest leaving unopened.
Hans
It's possible, but it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The available drives at TL5-6 eat fuel like popcorn. Delivering a satellite to a neighboring world is doable but expensive - you burn a lot of fuel to deliver a small payload. Delivering a manned mission to a neighboring world, and having them land and do something and then be able to come home, that's a massive undertaking unless you can figure a way to find or make fuel at the target world.
I had an idea for a campaign once. It was supposed to be pulpish, set on a world of TL4 if possible, otherwise early TL5. The locals were under perfunctory observation by offworlders. The PCs would be involved in a top secret space program to get a manned spacecraft up to a very close moon with at least a 4/7 chance of the astronauts getting back down again alive.
A major scene would be the PC astronauts finding the alien observation post on the surface of the moon.
The space project was funded by a government that had incontrovertible evidence of recent visits by offworlders, and one faction of the offworlders was secretly feeding knowledge to a local scientist who had achieved the reputation of being a major genius due to that knowledge. (Another faction was smuggling ultra-tech stuff to a cabal of local plutocrats and getting valuables in trade. I've been trying to come up with more factions to provide more secrets, but so far the best I've come up with is a second smuggling ring, which seems rather boring).
Currently I'm unsure of just what tech level I should make the locals and what advances I should let the space program be in possession of.
Hans
Not too different from King David's Space Ship by Jerry Pournelle. Written in the same time period and setting as Mote in God's Eye, btw.
Yeah, but King David's spaceship is unable to return to the surface and nearly kills the pilot going up. Would have if the Imperials hadn't saved her.
Hans
martletsquire
SOC-12
Ranke,
If your campaign is approximately WWII-ish or Cold-War-ish with the various polities, then you can toss in something like "Operation Paperclip" where the PCs are the snatchers, or snatchees.
Or, they could be on a vacation in a remote desert location, prospecting for radium or uranium and during a dust storm miss seeing the ominous government signs... Rescued by not-nice people, wake up to an offer they can't refuse (guinea pigs of one sort or another).
Toss in something like fake flying saucers to cover up secret military weather balloon sensor equipment...
Maybe have a high altitude balloon capsule as a way to get to near space.
Check out Heinlein's junior novels, especially the one about some boys who build a spaceship with their uncle. (NAZIs on the MOON!!!)
If your campaign is approximately WWII-ish or Cold-War-ish with the various polities, then you can toss in something like "Operation Paperclip" where the PCs are the snatchers, or snatchees.
Or, they could be on a vacation in a remote desert location, prospecting for radium or uranium and during a dust storm miss seeing the ominous government signs... Rescued by not-nice people, wake up to an offer they can't refuse (guinea pigs of one sort or another).
Toss in something like fake flying saucers to cover up secret military weather balloon sensor equipment...
Maybe have a high altitude balloon capsule as a way to get to near space.
Check out Heinlein's junior novels, especially the one about some boys who build a spaceship with their uncle. (NAZIs on the MOON!!!)
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Ranke,
You could make it more like the politics of a military-industrial complex too.
That is, the planet has competing programs. Say, one that is run by the Army, one by the Navy, a third by the Air Force (or whatever). These programs could be very insular and even viciously competitive. Now you have corporate spying, and possibly even active sabotage by the various branches.
Competition for funds is fierce.
You get a huge :CoW:
Now the characters have to decide if they want to help the faction they are with (maybe not all are with the same faction) or what they will do...
You could make it more like the politics of a military-industrial complex too.
That is, the planet has competing programs. Say, one that is run by the Army, one by the Navy, a third by the Air Force (or whatever). These programs could be very insular and even viciously competitive. Now you have corporate spying, and possibly even active sabotage by the various branches.
Competition for funds is fierce.
You get a huge :CoW:
Now the characters have to decide if they want to help the faction they are with (maybe not all are with the same faction) or what they will do...
There is that minor issue, isn't there.
