Marine TOE

[Piper]

I think the Kinunir may not be an ideal choice from which to derive Marine TO&E. My personal feeling is that the ship was designed to give players a demonstration of what is possible in ship design as well as to provide an interesting adventure setting.
But, so be it.
The first squad provides a pinnace crew for boarding parties and internal security. The second squad is jump troops, and not a single member of the pre-generated squad has grav vehicle skill.
The third squad is assigned to the grav APC. It does not specifically mention that this is an Astrin, but I'm willing to bet the publication of the Kinunir pre-dates that vehicle design by a few years.
Do you honestly think this is an organization for a typical marine platoon? If so, then it seems that 1/3 of them are mech infantry.

Azhanti High Lightning is sketchier. It lists 150 "ship's troops" but does not state how many are marines. Even if every one of them is a marine, the ship has no provision for combat-landing them that I can see.

It seems likely that marine TO&E was left deliberately vague so as to allow players to craft their own to their own schemes.
As you have done.

On another point, battle dress *is* nearly bullet-proof in most systems. Depending on the system in use, a Gauss rifle can damage it but it's impervious to most other slug-throwers (varies with TL of the armor). But at TL15, who is still using bullets? A laser rifle can turn it into a collander in most combat systems (again, varies with system and TL).

edit: The main point I'm trying to make here is; why does any organization scheme have to fit the numbers given on those vessels? Given the way different systems and supplements have varied over the years, why bother going through the gymnastics needed to make it fit one particular scheme?

 

[mike wightman]

The Kinunir is one of my favorite Traveller ships. She suffered a bit in the conversion to High Guard 2, but then so did the Azhanti High Lightning

One of the many good things to come out of TNE was for the Kinunir to become a viable design again.

Oh, and I'll go with the Marines as light "infantry" model as well.

 

[BetterThanLife]

The Kinunir may not be anyone's ideal of how to organize a Marine Platoon. In fact it has 4 officers. Which makes it more suitable as a Special Forces A-Team equivalent. (Cadre Type unit for training and leading indigineous forces not the TV show.

)

Which is where I came up with the Kinunir is a special platform for delivering Commandoes and Colonial Cruiser is a cover name for the project. It also explains nicely why someone would put a Black Globe Generator on such a small ship.

However 35 fits nicely with 8 man squads and 150 man Companies. (Type-T and AHL.)

But OK, lets leave out ships. How would a Lift Infantry Batalion of Marines be organized? (And what ships would a Company, Platoon and Squad from this batalion fit on?)

 

[BetterThanLife]

BTW Thanks Sigg and Dan and Ranger for stating agreement that the Majority of Marines should be Light Infantry.

It feels good to not be alone.

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
How would a Lift Infantry Batalion of Marines be organized? (And what ships would a Company, Platoon and Squad from this batalion fit on?)

BTW; Kinunir squads are 10, not 8.

Marine Assault Company

3 Kinunirs plus an unidentified support/command vessel.
The Kinunirs rendevous out of planetary defense range and release their pinnaces carrying the APC's.
The Kinunirs then close with the planet, deliver jump troops and provide ortillery support.
The jump troops secure the LZ for the pinnaces.
The pinnaces return and pick up the remaining squads for transport.

Organization: Each Kinunir carries 1 squad of the company's mech platoon, 1 squad of the jump platoon and 1/2 squad of the support platoon; either, medical, fire direction, point defense, EW or what-have-you. The remaining 1/2 squad or team stays on board as ship's troops and gunnery.
The command/support vessel provides company-level staffing and supply as well as any specialized hardware the company needs.
Want a battalion? Multiply by 3 and add another command vessel. Alternatively, make 1 company armor.

Is this the only way to do it? No, there are as many ways as there are players.

Again, the point is that if you want your marines organized that way, that's fine. Canon does not require it. It may be interpreted in a number of ways or, as I think, left deliberately vague to encourage individual creativity.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Originally posted by far-trader:

Just to offer some unexpected support Bhoins I'm with you on the Marines as a light force. If for no other reason than the tech and tac force multiplier they enjoy most of the time. You don't need a division and armor support when your squad is gravpack BD/PGMP equipped dropped hot from orbit with a little ortillary leading them in

The Astrin or what have you is there for getting groceries

The other voices may be more of the big ship universe so they need to fill the ship's troops ranks and such. While in the small ship universes, like the Type T and Kinunir, a squad or so is all the Imperium needs to keep a planet in line

I agree.

The Imperial Marines of Traveller were always IMHO used like special forces in America.
They are highly trained, motivated and disciplined.
They are prepared for any ship or ground action that may require use of force (brute as in suppressing a mutiny or boarding a pirate ship) or firepower (as in planetary assault and security missions).
They are Mobile infantry (able to operate Ground or Grav).

Just my 0.02 Im credits worth

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Piper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
How would a Lift Infantry Batalion of Marines be organized? (And what ships would a Company, Platoon and Squad from this batalion fit on?)

BTW; Kinunir squads are 10, not 8.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes the Squads in Adventure 1, The Kinunir, are not the 8 I use. They are organized as 3 3 man fireteams with the Squad led by a Lieutenant. The Platoon is led by a Captain. (Kind of top heavy for a typical Platoon and goes against what the individual ranks do in LBB4.) Further while everyone in the Third Squad can drive the vehicle there is no desiginated vehicle crew and only one person can actually fire the gun, if any, on the APC.

Which is one more reason the Kinunir looks like something different and special.

35 looks like a good platoon size with the 8 man squad at one end and the 150 man company at the other.

Marine Assault Company

3 Kinunirs plus an unidentified support/command vessel.
The Kinunirs rendevous out of planetary defense range and release their pinnaces carrying the APC's.
The Kinunirs then close with the planet, deliver jump troops and provide ortillery support.
The jump troops secure the LZ for the pinnaces.
The pinnaces return and pick up the remaining squads for transport.

Organization: Each Kinunir carries 1 squad of the company's mech platoon, 1 squad of the jump platoon and 1/2 squad of the support platoon; either, medical, fire direction, point defense, EW or what-have-you. The remaining 1/2 squad or team stays on board as ship's troops and gunnery.
The command/support vessel provides company-level staffing and supply as well as any specialized hardware the company needs.
Want a battalion? Multiply by 3 and add another command vessel. Alternatively, make 1 company armor.

Is this the only way to do it? No, there are as many ways as there are players.

Again, the point is that if you want your marines organized that way, that's fine. Canon does not require it. It may be interpreted in a number of ways or, as I think, left deliberately vague to encourage individual creativity.

Interesting. So you would have a Company as partially Lift, instead of entirely lift? Interesting.

Problem is that a Lift Squad, based on typical Traveller ICVs should be 11. (12 would be better but both the Astrin and the Empress are 11.) 2 Ground teams and the vehicle crew. (One other place where the 8 Man Squad fits.)

I did put some thought into my Marine TO&E. Though some of the explainations may seem superficial, like the 35 man Platoon, the system fits well together is consistent and did require allot of thought, and the sizes mesh well with Canon ships.

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Interesting. So you would have a Company as partially Lift, instead of entirely lift?

Actually, no; that's not how I do it.
But you asked for a TO&E consistent with the ships you listed and the one I offered seemed reasonable given the peculiarities of the Kinunir.

The point of most of my arguments in this thread has been against limits on marine organization or any other factor of the game.
There is nothing wrong with your organization scheme. You have obviously thought it out and explained it to your own satisfaction and to mine, as well.
But there are a limitless number of alternative organizations that would work just as well. The key point I have obviously failed to make is that individual creativity should be encouraged.
You have your particular views on habitable planet types, urban terrain, use of canon materials and so on. These are all well and good and obviously work for you.
Other people could have views that diverge radically in any or all of these areas. An arcology is what the designer wants it to be, marines are organized how the designer wants them to be, even if it's as simple as: "Marines? Okay; 2d6 guys in battledress with cutlasses and autopistols."

In any event, I'm done preachin'. <kicks soapbox into the corner>
I really should have let this drop a while back and I offer my apology if my criticisms have seemed unduly harsh or unfair.

Oh, one other thing; all those officers on the Kinunir? They're the force commander and the command staff. The Kinunir, grand old lady that she is would certainly rate the job of strike force command vessel.

 

[Golan2072]

Solar Triumvirate (TL12) Marine Corps Organization

Fireteam: 4 men: 3 Gauss Riflemen (with underbarrel grenade launchers and a few RAM grenades each for indirect/light anti-armor fire), one Plasma Gunner with a PGMP-12 (high damage, long range; serves as a light-medium anti-armor/anti-aircraft support weapon). One of the Riflemen is the Fireteam Leader and is a Corporal; the two other Riflemen are Privates and the Plasma Gunner is a Lance Corporal.

Squad: 11 men, 1 G-Carrier: Two Infantry Fireteams, one Vehicle Team (G-Carrier Driver and Gunner) and a Squad Leader. The G-Carrier Gunner is a Corporal and the G-Carrier Driver is a Lance Corporal, and the Squad Leader is a Lance Sergeant. The Squad rides a G-Carrier which is organic to it; the G-Carrier also carries additional supplies, munitions (such as light TAC missiles) and ammonition for the Squad.

Platoon: 48 men, 5 G-Carriers and a Dropship: 3 Infantry Squads, an Anti-Vehicle Team, a Dropship Team and a Command Post. The AV Team is composed of 7 men: two AV Specialists (who use man-portable Tac Missiles; Corporals), two Assistants/Forward Obs (carry reloads and possibly Laser Carbines for designation; Lance Corporals), a G-Carrier pilot and Gunner (The G-Carrier Gunner is a Corporal and the G-Carrier Driver is a Lance Corporal) and a Team Leader (armed with a Gauss Rifle; Lance Sergeant). The AV team's G-Carrier also gives light artillery support (light MRL). The Dropship Team consists of a Pilot (Second Liutenant) and a Gunner (Sergeant). The Command Post consists of a Platoon Commander (1st Liutenant), Platoon Senior NCO (Gunnery Sergeant), Comm/Intel Specialist (Sergeant), Platoon Medic (Sergeant), Command G-Carrier Pilot and Command G-Carrier Gunner (The G-Carrier Gunner is a Corporal and the G-Carrier Driver is a Lance Corporal).

Company: 186 men, 22 G-Carriers, and 4 Dropships: 3 Platoons and a Command Post (Captain CO, 1st Lt XO, Leading Sergeant as a Senior NCO, ELINT team [3 Corporals under a Lance Sergeant in addition to a Lance Corporal G-Carrier Driver and a Corporal G-Carrier Gunner, riding a specialized G-Carrier], Medical Clearing Station [a 2nd Lt Doctor, 2 Sergeant Medics in addition to a Lance Corporal G-Carrier Driver and a Corporal G-Carrier Gunner], an Engineering Team [3 Corporals under a Lance Sergeant in addition to a Lance Corporal G-Carrier Driver and a Corporal G-Carrier Gunner], a Maintainance Team [Corporal and Lance Corporal, riding along with the Engineering team], a Forward Observer Team [3 Lance Corporals with Laser Rifles under a Lance Sergeant with a Gauss Rifle in addition to a Lance Corporal G-Carrier Driver and a Corporal G-Carrier Gunner], Quartermaster [Staff Sergeant] and Assistant Quartermaster [Sergeant] [both riding a G-carrier filled with supplies with a Lance Corporal Driver and a Corporal G-Carrier Gunner], Comm Team [3 Corporals under a Lance Sergeant in addition to a Lance Corporal G-Carrier Driver and a Corporal G-Carrier Gunner, riding a specialized G-Carrier], and a Command G-Carrier Driver and a G-Carrier Gunner [Lance Corporal and Corporal] who operate the G-Carrier that carries the CO, XO, and Senior NCO; and an additional Dropship, along with a Pilot [Second Lieutenant] and a Gunner [Sergeant].

 

[Golan2072]

Solar Triumvirate Drop Troops (TL12)
The Drop Troops are an elite Marine unit, deployed by Drop Capsules behind enemy lines to sew confusion and wreck havock; they are VERY heavy, non-Mechanized infantry and are usually integrated into Marine units at the Battalion level or abouve (as a Drop Platoon or Company) or deployed independantly as a special-forces unit. They also use Combat Armor exclusively, unlike the CES-Reflec combo (CES = Combat Environment Suit) usual Marines use.

Drop Fireteam: 4 men: 3 Gauss Riflemen and a PGMP-12 Gunner; one of the Riflemen is the team leader and is a Corporal; the Plasma Gunner is a Lance Corporal and the remaining two Riflemen are Privates.

Drop Squad: 9 men: 2 Drop Fireteams and a Lance Sergeant Squad Leader.

Drop Platoon: 38 men: 3 Drop Squads, an Anti-Vehicle Team and a Command Post. The AV Team is composed of 7 men: two AV Specialists (who use man-portable Tac Missiles; Corporals), two Assistants (carry reloads and Gauss Rifles; Privates) and two Forward Observers (Carry Laser Rifles and flares; Lance Corporals). The Command Post consists of a Platoon Commander (1st Liutenant), Platoon Senior NCO (Gunnery Sergeant), Comm/Intel Specialist (Sergeant), and a Platoon Medic (Sergeant).

Drop Company: 132 men: 3 Drop Platoons and a Command Post; the Command Post consists of a CO (Captain), an XO (1st Lt), Senior NCO (Leading Sergeant), Medical Clearing Station (a 2nd Lt Doctor, 2 Sergeant Medics), an Engineering Team (3 Corporals under a Lance Sergeant), a Forward Observer Team (3 Lance Corporals with Laser Rifles under a Lance Sergeant with a Gauss Rifle), Quartermaster (Staff Sergeant), Assistant Quartermaster (Sergeant), Comm Specialist (Sergeant), and an Intelligence Specialist (Sergeant).

Drop Troops are deployed from specialized Naval ships using Drop Capsules and are recovered by Naval small craft organic to their mothership. Light vehicles (Air/Rafts) are stored aboard the mothership and supplied to the Drop Troops using a Small Craft once an LZ is secured.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Aside from the fact that they don't mesh well with canon ships that carry Marines, I like it. The Platoons and Companies are larger than I would use but that is a good thing for units that are likely to be operating independently.

I thought my organization was a bit light and I do prefer the Squad Leaders to not also be a Fireteam leader, but the canon vehicles and ships all point to an 8 man dismount/infantry squad not 9.

 

[Golan2072]

Since the only cannon vehicles are use are the LBB2 ones (G-Carriers mostly) and since I design my own ships and use my units in the non-cannon TU, this shouldn't be an issue.

And yes, Solar Triumvirate Army units are smaller than Marine ones since they'll usually be deployed as a part of something big (Regiment atleast); Marines, on the other hand, are often deployed as small units for "peacetime" (read: cold war with the Alliance and a constant border conflict with the Matriarchate) missions and for anti-piracy/counter-terrorist missions.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Since the only cannon vehicles are use are the LBB2 ones (G-Carriers mostly) and since I design my own ships and use my units in the non-cannon TU, this shouldn't be an issue.

And yes, Solar Triumvirate Army units are smaller than Marine ones since they'll usually be deployed as a part of something big (Regiment atleast); Marines, on the other hand, are often deployed as small units for "peacetime" (read: cold war with the Alliance and a constant border conflict with the Matriarchate) missions and for anti-piracy/counter-terrorist missions.

OK Silly rules mechanics question time. If you are only using LBB1-3 vehicles and equivalent, how do you fight the vehicles? There are no rules for engaging vehicles, even if you include LBB4-7. (Never saw 8 so don't know if the rules are there.)

 

[endersig]

Originally posted by Bhoins:

OK Silly rules mechanics question time. If you are only using LBB1-3 vehicles and equivalent, how do you fight the vehicles? There are no rules for engaging vehicles, even if you include LBB4-7. (Never saw 8 so don't know if the rules are there.) [/QB][/QUOTE]
This has been a question that has plagued me for some time now. LBB-8, just so you know, is Robots. No Vehicle combat their. Do we just assume that heavily armored and armed ground vehicles have gone the way of the dodo? Why bother having tanks if big guns from outer space can just shoot'em up without having to deal with counter fire? I'd think that while you might put a few guns on lightly armored craft, you wouldn't have very extensive vehicle combat.

 

[endersig]

Originally posted by Bhoins:

OK Silly rules mechanics question time. If you are only using LBB1-3 vehicles and equivalent, how do you fight the vehicles? There are no rules for engaging vehicles, even if you include LBB4-7. (Never saw 8 so don't know if the rules are there.) [/QB][/QUOTE]
This has been a question that has plagued me for some time now. LBB-8, just so you know, is Robots. No Vehicle combat their. Do we just assume that heavily armored and armed ground vehicles have gone the way of the dodo? Why bother having tanks if big guns from outer space can just shoot'em up without having to deal with counter fire? I'd think that while you might put a few guns on lightly armored craft, you wouldn't have very extensive vehicle combat.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I have always used Striker for CT vehicles and combat.

IMTU Marines don't have much in the way of AFV since if the Navy doesn't own the sky they are screwed, anyway. The Army is expected to operate when without orbital fire support, though it clearly cannot if the Bad Guys do.

Marine TOE for units of a platoon or larger were based around "packages" that could be carried in one modular cutter. Even jump troops have to ride home.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
OK Silly rules mechanics question time. If you are only using LBB1-3 vehicles and equivalent, how do you fight the vehicles? There are no rules for engaging vehicles, even if you include LBB4-7. (Never saw 8 so don't know if the rules are there.)

I'm going to develop "my own" (read: with extensive Forum input) CT vehicle combat system; the start of the discussion about such a thing (not my thread, but interesting postsd by several people, Sigg Oddra and me included

) is in this thread.

I've also downloaded MegaTraveller (it was offered legally this week) but I prefer to stick to CT for the time being.

I'll move on to it once I'll finish my weapon and equipment house rules (they are about 75% ready).

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
IMTU Marines don't have much in the way of AFV since if the Navy doesn't own the sky they are screwed, anyway. The Army is expected to operate when without orbital fire support, though it clearly cannot if the Bad Guys do.

Remember the ortillery isn't advisable in certain situations, such as operating in domed/underground colonies/sites or inside the larger orbital habitats (the larger of such installations are big enough to move and APC/light gravb tank inside them). Also, ortillery tends to be quite heavily destructive, and if you want less collateral damage, you'll need a smaller support weapon. Sometimes you need a scalpel and not a chainsaw.

Also, if you have only one or a few ships, and they have to engage enemy space assets, you still want fire support even when your orbital support engages in full-scale space combat.

 

[Piper]

"Traveller rules can be used to create something not present in the rules. We don't have room to describe everything. With a little imagination, a little research, and a lot of thought, almost anything can be incorporated into Traveller."
Loren Wiseman, JTAS article

Vehicle combat was never clearly defined until MT. For the LBB's you really had to cob your own rules together. Book 8 is actually quite helpful here, giving hit tables, power plants and suspension data that can easily be used to create vehicles with a little work.

Orbital fire support has limitations. In Book 1, it's fairly innaccurate and requires several turns of adjustment to get a reasonable chance of a hit.
In Striker and MT's COACC, a forward observer is required for any fire at all.
And there's also the question of availability. The naval vessels may be dealing with SDB's or other threats, and simply not availble for close-in fire support.

Ach, ye beat me to it, Employee 2-4601

 

[Uncle Bob]

Striker has a LBB sized vehicle design book which is CT canon. And better than the FF&S rules.

And Naval fire support doesn't have to be Ortillery. A fighter or gunship with ship weapons outclasses even Grav tanks.