Martial Training (pg106) TTH
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
The way I understand adding to BAB, taken from D&D when calculating BAB for multiclass characters it would be #2. Your BAB line advances and it will gain you multiple attacks quicker.
I also think if it was meant to be just a plus to hit it would be so worded just like the weapon focus feat.
I also think if it was meant to be just a plus to hit it would be so worded just like the weapon focus feat.
I concur with Dan. The BAB part of it means that you bump the base attack bonus. Pg 22 of the 3.5 D&D PHB has a good example of using BAB with various attack bonuses, none of which do not grant additional attacks. In each case, these bonuses are listed as something other than BAB (size bonus, dexterity bonus, etc.) So the fact that this is listed as a BAB bonus, indicates the intent is to increase BAB, which cascades into additional attacks, etc.
In the interest of game balance however, it might be preferable to use the 1st interpretation however. This feat is a min/maxer's dream.
Marine:
BAB +20 (@ 20th level)
You can’t take Martial Training Feat while actively serving in the Marines
2 Skill Points per level
Scout:
BAB +15 (@20th level)
Martial Training Feat (+5 BAB @ 20th level!!)
4 Skill Points per Level
Unless you really want to be good with a cutlass, this is pretty much a no brainier.
On the other hand, it's a great feat for role playing as well. This is the feat to take if you want to show special combat training in the more mundane branches of the military. Army/Navy Special Ops, Merchants who make a living plying dangerous trade routes, former marksmanship instructors, grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, etc.
Of course as a GM, there are enough ways to make life hard. I'd say overall, probably best to go with #2. Gives players more control and you can always give it to your NPCs as well. 8)
In the interest of game balance however, it might be preferable to use the 1st interpretation however. This feat is a min/maxer's dream.
Marine:
BAB +20 (@ 20th level)
You can’t take Martial Training Feat while actively serving in the Marines
2 Skill Points per level
Scout:
BAB +15 (@20th level)
Martial Training Feat (+5 BAB @ 20th level!!)
4 Skill Points per Level
Unless you really want to be good with a cutlass, this is pretty much a no brainier.
On the other hand, it's a great feat for role playing as well. This is the feat to take if you want to show special combat training in the more mundane branches of the military. Army/Navy Special Ops, Merchants who make a living plying dangerous trade routes, former marksmanship instructors, grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, etc.
Of course as a GM, there are enough ways to make life hard. I'd say overall, probably best to go with #2. Gives players more control and you can always give it to your NPCs as well. 8)
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually I read that if you have one of the +1 BAB per level classes you can not have the Feat. Not only while you are actively serving. While it is true a Scout has the same BAB at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20th level it doesn't go up steadily. It isn't any more of a min/max than a Mercenary/Merchant or Mercenary/Professional.
archhealer
SOC-12
For the record, it states in the D20 3.0 and 3.5 rules that multiple attacks are derived directly from the base attack value. They have no bearing on class, weapon types, proficiencies, etc. Any attack value in excess of +5 grants an extra attack at +1, and so on. So yes, this feat would in fact allow extra attacks.
I also apply this feat only to non-combat classes (I.e. classes that have the +1/Level BAB increase). So if you're a 6th level marine/6th level academic, and you take this feat as an academic, you only get it for the 6 academic levels, not all 12 levels. I do not allow any attack increase in excess of +1/Level.
I also apply this feat only to non-combat classes (I.e. classes that have the +1/Level BAB increase). So if you're a 6th level marine/6th level academic, and you take this feat as an academic, you only get it for the 6 academic levels, not all 12 levels. I do not allow any attack increase in excess of +1/Level.
IMTU I play it as an addition to Base Attac Bonus so it can grant addition attacks.
But what if you took those academic levels at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20?
That is still only 5 levels in academic so it would only give +1 on the BAB. Class levels are caluculted seperate from character levels.
R
But what if you took those academic levels at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20?
That is still only 5 levels in academic so it would only give +1 on the BAB. Class levels are caluculted seperate from character levels.
R
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yep, but it won't matter when the class levels are taken Rover since it states it as a "per character level" not a "per class level" bonus even in the new playtest draft so that's the way I play it.
BTL and Archhealer, I see where you're coming from, and agree to a point. I think it'd make even more sense (and simplify it) to just drop the limitations by class and say "In no case may BAB exceed +1 per character level total." That should eliminate any munckining.
The one fix I was considering was in the spirit of the prerequisite of being 4th level to take it and only apply it to levels taken after acquiring the feat. It's not a bonus feat so you don't get to take it until 6th level when you get the free character level feat and your fist BAB +1 wouldn't come until 10th level. That really takes the punch out of it. But it seemed overly complicated and not really required imo.
Furtive Envoy, your examples don't (imho) support a min/maxer much. A better example* would halve those levels. So the Scout gets +9/+4 at 10th level and the Marine is still better with +10/+5 at 10th level. The Scout won't catch the Marine until they are 12th level, and the Scout will never pass the Marine in BAB. And don't forget it costs the Scout a feat to do this matching. All for a couple skill points more.
* Unless your game is that high level, mine seem to be around 10th level characters.
BTL and Archhealer, I see where you're coming from, and agree to a point. I think it'd make even more sense (and simplify it) to just drop the limitations by class and say "In no case may BAB exceed +1 per character level total." That should eliminate any munckining.
The one fix I was considering was in the spirit of the prerequisite of being 4th level to take it and only apply it to levels taken after acquiring the feat. It's not a bonus feat so you don't get to take it until 6th level when you get the free character level feat and your fist BAB +1 wouldn't come until 10th level. That really takes the punch out of it. But it seemed overly complicated and not really required imo.
Furtive Envoy, your examples don't (imho) support a min/maxer much. A better example* would halve those levels. So the Scout gets +9/+4 at 10th level and the Marine is still better with +10/+5 at 10th level. The Scout won't catch the Marine until they are 12th level, and the Scout will never pass the Marine in BAB. And don't forget it costs the Scout a feat to do this matching. All for a couple skill points more.
* Unless your game is that high level, mine seem to be around 10th level characters.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hmm, there does seem to be something wrong with the feat.
Let's say I have a 12th level character, lvl 4/4/4 in Marine, Merc and Rogue.
BAB +11/+6/+1.
With the MT feat the BAB goes up by 3, making it +14/+9/+4.
By 20th level such a character could have a BAB of +24/+19/+14/+9/+4.
I think it does make sense to say that levels in Barbarian, Marine, and Mercenary are subtracted from character level before figuring the bonus.
Let's say I have a 12th level character, lvl 4/4/4 in Marine, Merc and Rogue.
BAB +11/+6/+1.
With the MT feat the BAB goes up by 3, making it +14/+9/+4.
By 20th level such a character could have a BAB of +24/+19/+14/+9/+4.
I think it does make sense to say that levels in Barbarian, Marine, and Mercenary are subtracted from character level before figuring the bonus.
My example was to point out that at 20th level, you can be a marine with a +20 BAB, or a Scout with a +20 BAB... thanks to Martial training.
Of couse the Scout will have double the skill points of the Marine, assuming INT 10.
If you don't think that's a good example of min/maxing.. <shrug>
princelian
SOC-12
I started to agree with Furtive Envoy, but then changed my mind. Let's look at a Scout-7 who has this feat. His normal BAB is +5, and this feat gives him +6/+1. He gains a second attack a level early (Scout-8 is +6/+1 normally) and gets a +1 attack bonus. That's well within the power of a feat.
Where it breaks is beyond 7th level. It eventually gives the character +5 BAB for the cost of one feat, and that's far too good.
I'll allow the feat - it's a good equalizer for some of the weak-BAB-progression classes - but to get that +5 BAB you have to buy it five times.
I'd also allow Sailor, Pilot, and other military or semi-military branches to qualify. Also, there's no need for the once per four levels restriction - the cost of a feat per +1 BAB (see below) is enough restriction.
Here's how I'd rewrite it:
Martial Training
The individual has more than typical experience in combat situations through training, real life experience, or more typically through previous military service.
Prerequisites: One term in military service (any branch) or Str 12+ and Dex 12+.
Benefit: May add +1 to the Base Attack Bonus of the character. BAB may not exceed +1 per character level. (Thus it is a worthless feat for a straight-class Barbarian, Mercenary, or Marine.)
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time adding one to the character's BAB, but at no time can the BAB exceed a value of +1 per charater level.
Where it breaks is beyond 7th level. It eventually gives the character +5 BAB for the cost of one feat, and that's far too good.
I'll allow the feat - it's a good equalizer for some of the weak-BAB-progression classes - but to get that +5 BAB you have to buy it five times.
I'd also allow Sailor, Pilot, and other military or semi-military branches to qualify. Also, there's no need for the once per four levels restriction - the cost of a feat per +1 BAB (see below) is enough restriction.
Here's how I'd rewrite it:
Martial Training
The individual has more than typical experience in combat situations through training, real life experience, or more typically through previous military service.
Prerequisites: One term in military service (any branch) or Str 12+ and Dex 12+.
Benefit: May add +1 to the Base Attack Bonus of the character. BAB may not exceed +1 per character level. (Thus it is a worthless feat for a straight-class Barbarian, Mercenary, or Marine.)
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time adding one to the character's BAB, but at no time can the BAB exceed a value of +1 per charater level.
I think you still need the level 4 minimum restriction.
Otherwise you just take the feat at 1st level. Then the Marine and lets say Army have the same BAB advancement until 5th level. Assuming INT 10, the Marine is probably maxing Spot, and half funding 2 other skills (Survival, Leader, Gunnery, etc.).
On the other hand, Army Joe has enjoyed 5 levels of parity BAB parity with Jarhead, while Maxing Spot, Demolitions, Gunnery, and half funding Survival and Combat Engineering.
It’s an awesome feat because it fundamentally alters the heart of the class balance system. BAB vs. Skill points. Even at the mid levels (where most characters start thanks to prior history), it’s good enough that you’d be a fool not to take it if you qualify. Name a feat that increases skill point progression per level?
Otherwise you just take the feat at 1st level. Then the Marine and lets say Army have the same BAB advancement until 5th level. Assuming INT 10, the Marine is probably maxing Spot, and half funding 2 other skills (Survival, Leader, Gunnery, etc.).
On the other hand, Army Joe has enjoyed 5 levels of parity BAB parity with Jarhead, while Maxing Spot, Demolitions, Gunnery, and half funding Survival and Combat Engineering.
It’s an awesome feat because it fundamentally alters the heart of the class balance system. BAB vs. Skill points. Even at the mid levels (where most characters start thanks to prior history), it’s good enough that you’d be a fool not to take it if you qualify. Name a feat that increases skill point progression per level?
princelian
SOC-12
FE, that's a good point, except that I give all classes a minimum of (4 + Int bonus) skill points, so it's a little evened-out. The heart of Traveller (CT and onward) was skills, skills, skills, and it really bothers me that a "typical" jarhead (with approximately a 14 Int) gets four [full] skills.
I've also modified the cross-class system such that cross-class skills cost 1/rank (just like class skills) but they max out at the cross-class maximum. (10-level character can have 13 ranks in class skills and 6 ranks in cross-class skills; if there's an odd skill point left over it (and only 1) can be carried to the next level; each of these ranks costs 1 point per rank.) This is a change I brought from my last fantasy campaign.
Does this muck around with the BAB/skill progression? Yes, but to be totally honest, they're not completely balanced as the system stands anyhow. There are a number of classes that are flatly superior - or flatly inferior - to other classes.
Do I want to tweak them all so they're "perfect?" Yes, yes, I do. I'm a rules tinkering addict. Am I going to? No, my last <fantasy> campaign was a heavily HEAVILY modified d20 system, and my players didn't really care for it much. This campaign will be a lot closer to "book" d20, with only my very favorite house rules - like the cross-class skill cost and replacing the vehicular and starship combat systems with Renegade Legion's system - will be applied.
Or so I state now....I have no confidence in my willpower to resist more changes later.
I've also modified the cross-class system such that cross-class skills cost 1/rank (just like class skills) but they max out at the cross-class maximum. (10-level character can have 13 ranks in class skills and 6 ranks in cross-class skills; if there's an odd skill point left over it (and only 1) can be carried to the next level; each of these ranks costs 1 point per rank.) This is a change I brought from my last fantasy campaign.
Does this muck around with the BAB/skill progression? Yes, but to be totally honest, they're not completely balanced as the system stands anyhow. There are a number of classes that are flatly superior - or flatly inferior - to other classes.
Do I want to tweak them all so they're "perfect?" Yes, yes, I do. I'm a rules tinkering addict. Am I going to? No, my last <fantasy> campaign was a heavily HEAVILY modified d20 system, and my players didn't really care for it much. This campaign will be a lot closer to "book" d20, with only my very favorite house rules - like the cross-class skill cost and replacing the vehicular and starship combat systems with Renegade Legion's system - will be applied.
Or so I state now....I have no confidence in my willpower to resist more changes later.
BAB is skill though...or just like it.. It’s skill with any proficient weapon! It's like getting blade, gun, and brawling all in one!
I don't think adding skill points to full BAB progression characters is good. Then they become too powerful. Did you double every classes skill points per level?
The more I look at T20 classes, the more I think they are fairly well balanced against one another as presented, sans certain feats... like MT.
It's not that I don't like Martial Training. I'll take it every chance I get and twice on Sunday. I smile when I see another player who has taken it.
Is Martial Training a Dumb Luck class feat? No.. It's the the kind of feat you take after Dumb Luck. And Improved Init of course... 8)
Still, it's up there with the big boys, and it's for that reason I raise the caution flag; and a toast!! To those who would proceed undeterred by such warnings; the members of the Navy, Army and Scout services, in addition to all sophants with STR and DEX greater than 12, salute you!!!
As for Princelian's comment about some classes being inferior and superior: Which classes do you think are flatly inferior? I think they are all useful in certain character builds. What do you consider to be a superior class?
I don't think adding skill points to full BAB progression characters is good. Then they become too powerful. Did you double every classes skill points per level?
The more I look at T20 classes, the more I think they are fairly well balanced against one another as presented, sans certain feats... like MT.
It's not that I don't like Martial Training. I'll take it every chance I get and twice on Sunday. I smile when I see another player who has taken it.
Is Martial Training a Dumb Luck class feat? No.. It's the the kind of feat you take after Dumb Luck. And Improved Init of course... 8)
Still, it's up there with the big boys, and it's for that reason I raise the caution flag; and a toast!! To those who would proceed undeterred by such warnings; the members of the Navy, Army and Scout services, in addition to all sophants with STR and DEX greater than 12, salute you!!!
As for Princelian's comment about some classes being inferior and superior: Which classes do you think are flatly inferior? I think they are all useful in certain character builds. What do you consider to be a superior class?
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Well the Feat does say may not be taken by Mercenaries, Barbarians or Active Duty Marines in the THB. You would definitely have to exclude those class levels, at a minimum. Liek I said, If you have one of those classes you can't take it IMTU. I can see someone making an argument for someone who is no longer advancing in one of those classes, (Especially Marine) but there is nothing to stop someone from taking Merc Levels at a later date, so in my campaign, the answer is that feat and those classes are incompatible.
archhealer
SOC-12
As for 1 feat = +5 Base Attack Bonus, yeah that'd be broken.. except for one thing. By the time they get the +5, they're level 20. A level 20 character probably already has tons of weapon specializations, focuses, masterwork weapons, fancy techno-gadgets, cybernetic implants, and various other knick-knacks to enhance their attack value, if that's what you're going for. And when you're talking level 20 campaigns, a +5 attack value really isn't that big a deal. The feat in that regard seems well-balanced to me... as you increase in level, the feat becomes more powerful in balance to the campaign level. At low levels, it gives only +1 or 2, depending on level. As you advance, that value (Very slowly) increases. Doesn't seem such a big deal to me...
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