medical proficiancy

[far-trader]

Don't forget that CT also encourages refs to add new skills as the need arises. That would seem the more appropriate step for your wants. But I'm not really sure it's needed the way the Wounding and Death rules (Book1 p33) work. It looks more like your PCs need to recruit a Medic

But something like First-Aid might be a good addition. Where First-Aid-0 would be the basic course taken by ordinary people and never used. First-Aid-1 would be instructor level, lots of practice but no actual. First-Aid-2 and higher would be some use of the skill in actual practice. Allowing First-Aid-0 for ex-services personnel wouldn't be unbalancing with the following rule change:

Wounding and Death:

Unconscious wounded characters (one stat at zero) recover consciousness after 4 combat turns of successful First-Aid. Roll 8+ with DM = First-Aid or Medical skill level. If unsuccessful or not treated they recover consciousness in 40 combat turns.

Unconscious seriously wounded characters (two stats at zero) must be treated within 1 hour, the Golden Hour. They recover consciousness after 20 minutes of successful First-Aid. Roll 10+ with DM = First-Aid or Medical skill level. If unsuccessful recovery requires 3 hours. Untreated wounded characters will die from the trauma at the end of the Golden Hour.

Dying characters (three stats at zero) must be treated within 10 minutes. Roll 12+ with DM = First-Aid or Medical skill level. Success saves the character but they remain unconscious and must be treated by Medical-3 in a hospital within the Golden Hour to recover to a seriously wounded state or they die.

Note - Installation of the character in a charged lowberth will extend the Golden Hour.

Or something like that

I don't think Medical-0 is appropriate. Medical-1 and Medical-2 are steps in the Bachelor Degree, pre-Med if you will for those with higher final skill level. Or full Nurse, Emergency Responder, or Field Medic for those who's skill goes no higher. Medical-3 is the full MD and Internship while higher levels are simply talent and/or experience.

 

[rust]

Yes, I think this is a very good idea.

 

[CosmicGamer]

"Level-0 indicates an orientation to the skill by an experienced person."
I highlighted the word where I see the problem with Medic-0.

During my short military career I was trained as a combat medic, and one of
my tasks was to give first aid courses for soldiers from non-medical units. So,
these soldiers did receive training and refresher courses, but they usually had
no real practical experience at all. And even those few who had used their
first aid skills now and then could hardly be described as "experienced".

Frankly, I would not even have described myself as "experienced". While we had to solve some serious medical problems from time to time, this was nothing compared to what a civilian ambulance team was doing on a daily basis.

It is similar with police officers and fire fighters over here. They usually are the ones who arrive on the scene first, and who are rightly expected to be able to give at least sufficient first aid. They also do this almost daily (at least those who serve with the highway police or the emergency teams of the firefighters), and no theoretical training can only remotely come close to the skills they got from experience "on the job"

First, thanks for your take on things but my interpretation of experienced is that it is describing the person giving the orientation as experienced (not professional) not the trainee.

The youngest voluntary Red Cross guy on an urban ambulance team had more real practical experience than we did.

I certainly can't fault you for anything you say. Maybe we are just interpreting things differently again. To me orientation does not infer any practical experience needed when obtaining skill-0.

I don't want to copy the entire section from the book but here are some excerpts:

"it should not be taken as a stepping stone to level-1"

("it" means Level-0)

"A level of 0 for a skill indicates that the individual can undertake ordinary activities"

Now were in BIG trouble! <chuckle> We can debate for a long, long time what is meant by "ordinary" without any 2 people being in 100% agreement. (just like what would be "ordinary" for a Mechanical-0 skill) In the medical profession would it be treating burns, simple cuts, gunshots, broken bones, the flue, an earache...

In the rules it does not give a complete list of all the tasks that are ordinary for any skill in the game at each of the different levels. There are some examples though.

It does state "Medical-3 is sufficient for a character to be called a doctor" and that being a doctor assumes "a license to practice medicine" (so you do not even have a license to practice until level-3!) and "handling most ailments" (even for a doctor it is just "most") and it also says "A dexterity of 8+ is required for a doctor to also be a surgeon" further limiting what someone with just the medical-3 can do.

The only thing it says about skills close to our Medical-0 discussion is: "Medical-1 is sufficient to qualify a character for the position of medic on a starship"

So, to summarize, (bold words are the specific words used in the rules and I give examples (in parenthesizes) of words not used to stress the difference)

I still think that Military, law enforcement, and passenger ship crew characters in the Traveller universe would received orientation(not training) from an experienced(not professional) person in the type of ordinary medical situations that are common in their line of work and should get a medical-0 skill.

I would like to hear from more military, law enforcement/firemen and definitely some people who work on passenger transports (cruise ships, airlines) to see how common it is for people in these fields to have basic first aid training.

 

[rust]

Oops, it seems my English has failed me once more - your interpretation is
obviously the right one.

I had worked at a hospital for several years before I joined the military, so
I did have some experience when I gave the first aid courses. However, a
lot of my colleagues did not have any real experience at all. They all had
received an excellent training, but some of them probably would have ma-
de serious mistakes under the stress of the "real thing".
You see, training dummies rarely scream and stink or try to hit you out of
panic ...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Don't forget that CT also encourages refs to add new skills as the need arises. That would seem the more appropriate step for your wants.

As stated in previous posts, I completely agree. The problem is my dog ate the pages that deal with creating new skills! :frankie:

(No, my dog didn't eat them, but I am missing several pages)

 

[CosmicGamer]

Skill level-1 is the first level

Upon the first acquisition of a skill, the player writes the skill name, followed by a dash and the number 1

also

"Level-0" should not be taken as a stepping stone to Level-1

I point this out because from some peoples discussions, I often think they believe level-0 is the first skill level.

 

[far-trader]

As stated in previous posts, I completely agree. The problem is my dog ate the pages that deal with creating new skills! :frankie:

(No, my dog didn't eat them, but I am missing several pages)

Actually Marc's dog ate those pages before they could be published :smirk:

There are no guidelines for creating new skills in Book 2 as Book 1 promises. All there is iirc is the one line in Book 1:

"For example, if a new weapon is developed (perhaps a laser pistol), a new skill would be required to enable its use."

That's all we have to work with in CT as far as I can recall for sure. There might be something hidden in a Supplement or one of the advanced chargen books.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Actually Marc's dog ate those pages before they could be published :smirk:

There are no guidelines for creating new skills in Book 2 as Book 1 promises. All there is iirc is the one line in Book 1:

"For example, if a new weapon is developed (perhaps a laser pistol), a new skill would be required to enable its use."

That's all we have to work with in CT as far as I can recall for sure. There might be something hidden in a Supplement or one of the advanced chargen books.

Hmm, if thats not what's on those lost pages of mine.... scratches head and ponders guess I need to go mix laxatives in with Ruffs dogfood so that I can get those pages back and figure this out.:devil:

 

[Icosahedron]

If you tell us which pages are missing, we can give you an indication of what is on them.

 

[CosmicGamer]

If you tell us which pages are missing, we can give you an indication of what is on them.

Thanks!

It's the first 20 pages of (I think it's called) book one CT. The cover and bindings are gone and all the pages I have are loose and last time I played, many years ago, they probably got mixed in with someone else's stuff. It is not a LBB, when the page is folded closed it's the size of a full sheet of paper, just like my Charts and Tables booklet. On the top of every other page it says "The Traveller Book". I don't know what the last page should be so I would assume I am also missing the corresponding last 20 pages too. My first page is part way through the characters chapter, after that is personal combat.

There were so many releases and versions I thought you might need the details to identify the book properly.

Thanks in advance for any help.

NOTE: please don't post here saying where I can buy book or pdfs - (I have a thread in the duty free shop forum looking to trade for what I need)

 

[rust]

The Traveller Book .. let me see:

Introduction 9
Adventuring in Traveller 9
Getting Your Feet Wet 9
Required Materials 10
Definitions and Terms 11
Procedures 11
Referee Responsibilities 12
Conduct of the Adventuring Session 14
Die Rolling Conventions 16

Characters 17
Initial Character Generation 17
Characteristics 17
Acquiring Skills and Expertise 18
Mustering Out 19
Aging 19
Non-Player Characters 20
Career Types 20

So just the most basic stuff, where I see nothing that could help with the
"first aid problem".

The last page is 160 (empty), the pages from 147 to 160 give very basic
informations on the Imperium and some tables, like pre-generated NPCs
and animals.

 

[far-trader]

Yep, what you have there is the remains of "The Traveller Book". A compilation of LBB1-3 and some extra bits. It was available in softcover and hardbound.

If I read correctly what you're missing is:

Pages 1-4 cover pages, copyright and such

Pages 5-8 index and dedication

Pages 9-16 introduction, the basics of how to play Traveller, helpful for newbies

Pages 17-20 character generation introduction, npc notes, and career types notes

Page 21 (where your's begins) is the first page of "Skills"

...and if you're missing the same amount of pages in the back:

Page 140 (where your's ends) is the last page of the adventure "Shadows"

Page 141-146 is the adventure "Exit Visa"

Page 147-156 is a guide to the Traveller universe featuring a description of The Imperium with the Regina subsector map and notes and Library data of the subsector and related general info

Page 157 is a few pre-generated characters and basic npc's

Page 158 is a sample animal encounter table set (for Heya)

Page 159 is a brief publishing history of Traveller up to that volume

 

[far-trader]

heh, rust types faster or started sooner

 

[CosmicGamer]

Thank you very much!

 

[JAFARR]

I use medical skill this way.
Anybody can throw you in the auto doc (providing you have access to one) and hit the emergency button. Or place a minor wound bandage. Anything else and no medical skill, add the penalty for whichever system you are using.
level-0 = you can do some more basic stuff like splint a broken leg. Give an injection, if you are told what to give.
level-1 = you know how to read the labels and instruments on the auto doc allowing you to resupply it. Also if you have access to a portable diagnostic machine you can figure out what you need to do for the more serious stuff about 1/2 the time.
level-2 = same as above except you have about a 75% chance.
level-3 = full doctor for your species. level-0 in zeno medicine.

As far as RL goes, I got some basic first aid training in the US Navy and as a civilian, I took the Red Cross CPR training.

 

[Captain Midnight]

Premise: Shouldn't most Traveller characters have basic medical skills?

It really depends on what sort of possibilities you're envisioning for them. You should be able to model the game effects (which isn't all that easy with CT's granularity), while avoiding game-breaking situations, and still make it vaguely plausible given the environment.

I play GURPS Traveller, so it's not really an issue for me -- my character generation system allows for First Aid, Diagnosis, Physician, Electronics Operation (Medical), and Surgery skills, so I can balance them as needed to suit a given character concept. I can also get passable defaults from a high IQ, and I've got extensive rules available about a variety of drugs and technological methods of assisting healing. For example, there's the "smart bandage", which is essentially a bandage you slap on near the wound, and it takes over from there. It has a decent First Aid & Diagnosis skill, and a 5-dose supply of Hypercoagulin, Quickheal, and plastiskin, although it's not really designed to handle obscure ailments; anyone bright enough to read the directions can apply one, which at least in game terms works better than first aid. It's even possible for somebody to put it on himself and then pass out while it begins treatment.

Back when I was playing CT & MT, the players regularly carried around doses of "medical slow" drug as standard first-aid measures. We didn't know how to handle adjusting the rules to handle non-humans, so they tended to suffer fatal wounds ("I think he's going into shock; what do you think?" "He's a Bwap -- there's no way he's ever going to look pale."). We had a standing joke about treating Vargr for shock, based on the old rhyme we were all taught for remembering how to treat for shock. ("If his face is pale, you raise his tail." "Somehow, I don't think that's going to help much.") We also joked about New York CPR ("You better get up off the ground before you f***ing DIE, you hear me?").

Remember that there will be technological solutions available, and that people will get basic medical training that matches whatever sorts of trouble they're expecting; for example, if you're an Army veteran, it's less likely that you ever had much opportunity to be treating someone who tried to breathe vacuum. If the only treatment you would ever be expected to give is "administer a shot or pill", then your diagnosis skills will be rudimentary at best. If there are technical measures available that can do much of the work, it's probably easier to just keep them on hand instead of training everyone on low-tech options.

The in-game effect is likely to be small. You're keeping people from dying, not returning them to health.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*spit take*

...We also joked about New York CPR ("You better get up off the ground before you f***ing DIE, you hear me?")...
The in-game effect is likely to be small. You're keeping people from dying, not returning them to health.

nothing to say but this....:rofl:, wow, that had me dying, now do i use my medical-1 or first aid-0?

 

[Icosahedron]

FWIW, my take on Medical skill is this:

No Skill, or CPR/First aid course/statutory or military basal requirements: On a successful roll, cannot revive hit points or prevent deterioration, but the patient will not lose his last hit point for (10*first aiders Endurance) minutes. Can place a patient into a high-tech life-support system. The Trained person uses Level-0 DMs for these purposes only. No drug administration.

Level-0: A person (usually) working for the emergency services or special forces who is fully qualified in first aid and experienced in its use, though often in a narrow field. Limited drug administration.

Level-1: A qualified Paramedic. Can arrest deterioration, improve stats, administer drugs, etc.

Level-2: Fully qualified Nurse (I have got these first two the right way round, haven't I?) or competent trainee doctor. Can perform all the tasks of a paramedic but with improved skill.

Level-3: Qualified Doctor. Can perform routine operations. Will work at minus 1, minus 2 or minus 3 with Xenobiology, depending how humanoid it is.

Level-4+: Specialist. Surgeon, neurologist, Xenomedic, etc.

 

[rust]

I have got these first two the right way round, haven't I ?

I think so. Here in Germany a Paramedic has at least 520 hours of training,
while a nurse has three years of it.

 

[Ishmael]

Given my view of what skill levels mean ( although I know that very few if anyone else has a similar view ), I'm somewhat leery about the assignment of job titles such as doctor, nurse, etc. to any given skill level.

The actual skill is a combination of skill and attribute, and although some oddness can come about if the ref isn't on his toes, I think it makes a certain level of sense. Skill level is related to experience in the field. IMO then, a paramedic with 25 years experience would be better for most injuries than a doctor with a new license but not much practice.

An example showing how skill levels should not be equated with a job position...
I know of some nurses which are far more proficient in most medical areas than some licensed doctors.

I think its a mistake to say skill-3 = doctor, or skill-1 = only-some-first-aid
Pigeon-holing the terminology like that serves no purpose.