Military tactics for battle dress

[AnotherDilbert]

What enemy are we talking about?

Against a near-peer enemy you have the normal situation: If I can see you, I can kill you.

Against a mid-tech enemy with heavy weapons: If I can see you, I can kill you (but you have a better chance of survival).

Against low-tech troops without heavy weapons, you slaughter them.


Since BD is quite costly, a non-BD enemy is likely to have a lot more troops with a lot more firepower.


Against any enemy that knows that you are coming, they will come armed with heavy weapons that can reach out and kill you. BD is then mostly protection from artillery. So, if you have BD, don't fight fair, hose down the area with artillery, mop up any survivors, and move on?


Grav belts are a great addition to BD, but not standard fit in any edition, as far as I can recall.


P.S. I know nothing about real combat, so feel free to ignore anything I say...

 

[Drew]

What enemy are we talking about?

Against a near-peer enemy you have the normal situation: If I can see you, I can kill you.

Against a mid-tech enemy with heavy weapons: If I can see you, I can kill you (but you have a better chance of survival).

Against low-tech troops without heavy weapons, you slaughter them.


Since BD is quite costly, a non-BD enemy is likely to have a lot more troops with a lot more firepower.


Against any enemy that knows that you are coming, they will come armed with heavy weapons that can reach out and kill you. BD is then mostly protection from artillery. So, if you have BD, don't fight fair, hose down the area with artillery, mop up any survivors, and move on?


Grav belts are a great addition to BD, but not standard fit in any edition, as far as I can recall.


P.S. I know nothing about real combat, so feel free to ignore anything I say...

One of the missing arguments is how the troops are being deployed. are they being dropped in like Starship Troopers (book) or are they being airlifted (Starship Troopers (movie)? What are they up against (tech level, morale, equipment)? Considering the advancement of drone warfare and detection levels at our current tech level, it gives the field commander very few options. If it is to hold a terrain it slag the area and count what's left of the noses. A near-peer will have the advantage of terrain etc. while the invader can choose either timing or location. I look at Black Hawk Down as a modern-day scenario or Fallujah. where it becomes a slug fest of attrition.

 

[kilemall]

Just looking at this through a CT Striker lens, combat armor troops with TL13 X-ray laser rifles can equip at 10% the cost. Doesn’t mean that’s always preferable to have numbers, but also more in the budget for heavier equipment/vehicles. Much better one shot BD kills with bigger guns, especially pulse lasers, VRF gauss and rapid pulse plasma.

I allow for exoframes for more 2300 style walkers at lower tech levels. Good for rough country support vehicles aka Patlabor 2, or heavy weapons starship hull cracking boarding action and satisfying power suit cravings.

GL/RAM presumably only targets vehicles, but one has to imagine that by TL12 micro missile tech married to good old fashioned HEAT can provide a lower cost solution (countered by suit PD/EW of course).

All this doesn’t invalidate BD, just that it’s on a spectrum. I look at them as something you give the functional equivalent of Army Rangers- spec ops low logistical tail biggest rats in the barrel gotta win small important fight. They don’t hold ground but they kick in the door, take the target/defend the ship and leave/are relieved.

One major survival tool I posted for BD that some of you may missed is the high tech knight equivalent of the shield. A slab of superdense angled per Striker armor rules gets you protection against the dragons, er, most of the light and medium weapons they face, including other PG/FGMPs. That 100kg carry limit affords a hefty shield.

The arm strength should also allow arm mounted weapons like a Gauss rifle to be fired without two hands or recoil penalty. Thus two weapons close in fighting should be standard.

Finally, the doubled strength should allow for much heavier melee weapons to be wielded- just the thing for a real marine cutlass for boarding/no holes in the hull action.

 

[The Oz]

Battle dress troops with meson comms and grav belts are a highly mobile, dispersed sensor net for indirect fires by starships. drones, and meson artillery. The personal weapons they carry are more for point defense and 'move-and-scoot' ambushes than sustained combat. This is against peer opponents, of course.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

One of the missing arguments is how the troops are being deployed. are they being dropped in like Starship Troopers (book) or are they being airlifted (Starship Troopers (movie)?

All this doesn’t invalidate BD, just that it’s on a spectrum. I look at them as something you give the functional equivalent of Army Rangers- spec ops low logistical tail biggest rats in the barrel gotta win small important fight. They don’t hold ground but they kick in the door, take the target/defend the ship and leave/are relieved.

The best argument for BD is that the troops are already so expensive it's not all that much extra cost. E.g. when the troops are star-lifted to the warzone with a months-long logistics tail.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Battle dress troops with meson comms and grav belts are a highly mobile, ...

Yes, and troops in combat armour with grav belts are just as mobile and protected but cheaper, hence probably more numerous or combined with more heavy equipment.

DB just let you carry around more individual firepower.

 

[mike wightman]

I think we may need to add a bit to the capabilities of battle dress in light of what is being discovered about drone warfare.

First, why have a man in the suit in the first place? Will there be unmanned decoy suits?

Oversight, decision making, intuition are all reasons for keeping pilots in 6th gen aircraft.

Why battle dress instead of combat armour/grav belt.

My answer to that is where we have to consider

(Cr200.000; TL 13): The ultimate in individual protection, battle
dress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor. Battle dress enhances
the strength and senses of individuals wearing it with variable feedback personal
controls, servopowered limbs, and various kinds of electronic assistance. The
individual wearing battle dress is effectively doubled in strength and given unlimited
endurance (for lifting, carrying, and fighting purposes; not for wounds received)
and receives a DM of +2 for surprise.

My concept is to consider the battle dress as the hub of an "infantry" dedicated wingman set up.

Not only is the trooper tied into the trooper web as mentioned by previous posters, but they also have at their disposal many sensor drone, weapon drones, decoy drones, unmanned vehicles, supply vehicles.

 

[McPerth]

I know nothing about real combat, so feel free to ignore anything I say...

Same here...

Grav belts are a great addition to BD, but not standard fit in any edition, as far as I can recall.

The most detailed description of various classes of BD I've seen is on MTJ issues 1 and 2, where several classes of them are depicted (TL13 Commando/Cavalry, TL10-15 Assayt and TL13 Forward Observer), In all of them the grav blet is said to be a modular accessory, but costs are higher (0.29-0.6 MCr)

One major survival tool I posted for BD that some of you may missed is the high tech knight equivalent of the shield.

The Forward Observer one in the told descriptions have it... While the overall armor (in MT terms) is 10, the shield is 25, Unfortunately there are no rules as how to take proffit from it...

 

[Baroun Tardis]

OK, first, "what is Battledress"?

I did this a long time back for TL10 battle dress...

KSH TL10

“Knight” / “Squire” / “Hawk” System, TL 10 This is a combined-arms combat system for TL10, intended to operate in a variety of high-threat environments. The three components are: Knight: A small combat-walker with excellent EW capabilities, good armor and speed, and some light laser weapons al...

docs.google.com

TL10, but it gives an idea where I think TL15 starts from

 

[Spinward Flow]

I love Jeff's "War of the Worlds"

Full version
Runtime: 1h 58m 07s

In case there is anyone reading these forums who hasn't heard this version of War of the Worlds all of its musical glory.

 

[Commander Truestar]

I think we may need to add a bit to the capabilities of battle dress in light of what is being discovered about drone warfare.

First, why have a man in the suit in the first place? Will there be unmanned decoy suits?

Oversight, decision making, intuition are all reasons for keeping pilots in 6th gen aircraft.

Why battle dress instead of combat armour/grav belt.

My answer to that is where we have to consider

My concept is to consider the battle dress as the hub of an "infantry" dedicated wingman set up.

Not only is the trooper tied into the trooper web as mentioned by previous posters, but they also have at their disposal many sensor drone, weapon drones, decoy drones, unmanned vehicles, supply vehicles.

OK....
Some answers....
1) the Imperium is, per the OTU and many many Core statements, Anti-warbot. So, where warbot is an android, Decoy suits are the first step and essentially the same thing

2) (INSERTING COMBAT EXPERIENCE) My team and I were frequently amazed how often the signal didn't get through.
The last thing you need is for your drones, etc, to go sideways because the signal is gone.
And yes, there are "noise generators" that defeat drones.

So, NO team of operators are gonna go in trusting something which can't think for itself and follow orders....but, per 1 above, No Warbots

3) Combat armor "is" the Battledress shell without all the bells and whistles. No BattleComputer, unit integration, target acquisition and adv.
targeting. The list goes on. If you want to put your troops in the field to start with, give them the best tools you can so you can better
succeed.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Just looking at this through a CT Striker lens, combat armor troops with TL13 X-ray laser rifles can equip at 10% the cost. Doesn’t mean that’s always preferable to have numbers, but also more in the budget for heavier equipment/vehicles. Much better one shot BD kills with bigger guns, especially pulse lasers, VRF gauss and rapid pulse plasma.

So, number always "sound good"

The US Military spent quite a bit more on training and supplying us....not battledress. Not even Landwarrior, because it was the 1980's
Still, we had an exercise where a battalion (5 companies) had encamped and been warned to watch for an "airborne assault"...

We were dropped at night. The _Four_ of us. Against ~600 encamped troops.
Our orders, force them out and prevent them communicating with higher HQ.

The first line of shoulder mounted rockets(simulated M-72 LAWs) hit their comms shack, ammo dump, fuel dump and command tent
the second line of shoulder mounted rockets hit their motor pool, "officer's country"(Yes, they foolishly segregated their tents), motor pool again and troop concentrations....

I should mention, we first observed, then planned and planted simulated claymores around their perimeter because they made it easy.
.....They had 3 "shifts" in fox holes. And, when it came time to change shifts, they sent "All the replacements" out at the same time.

So, at the same time we lit the rockets, we each stepped on remote detonators which set off the claymores.....which caught the teams coming in relief "and" the teams being relieved at the same time...

So, in the first seconds of our assault, we had killed:
2/3 of their combat force with the other third just getting into their sleeping bags...
Most of their officers...
All their communications
All of their fuel
Most of their spare ammo
All their key vehicles....

In short, it took four of us 45 minutes to degrade the battalion to the point of surrender.

So, yes, we were a LOT more expensive to train.....but we were a lot more devastating than any large number of average troopers.

Yes, we also had the advantage that we knew how the script was expected to go while they were all just collateral damage, but...
.....again, from actual combat experience, that is how most battles go

 

[mike wightman]

Modern military drones are immune to noise generators.

Moderns comms and electronic warfare systems are way beyond what they were even ten years ago, and the next generation - such as the dedicated wingman - will not be spoofed.

Especially if the done in question has autonomous action once authorised.

BD is TL13, TL 13 drones and comms will be a lot better than we can imagine.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

BD is TL13, TL 13 drones and comms will be a lot better than we can imagine.

They'll likely be reasonably autonomous... which brings us around to the Imperial "thing" about warbots=bad.

Although I think they'll likely make exceptions for :

Unmanned logistics vehicles (things like Big Dog)
Remote MRLs are cannon... and I think an unmanned logistics vehicle that drops those off isn't unreasonable.
survellience/battlefield intel/comm relay drones

 

[Spinward Flow]

Modern military drones are immune to noise generators.

Moderns comms and electronic warfare systems are way beyond what they were even ten years ago, and the next generation - such as the dedicated wingman - will not be spoofed.

Famous.
Last.
Words ...

 

[kilemall]

So, number always "sound good"

The US Military spent quite a bit more on training and supplying us....not battledress. Not even Landwarrior, because it was the 1980's
Still, we had an exercise where a battalion (5 companies) had encamped and been warned to watch for an "airborne assault"...

We were dropped at night. The _Four_ of us. Against ~600 encamped troops.
Our orders, force them out and prevent them communicating with higher HQ.

The first line of shoulder mounted rockets(simulated M-72 LAWs) hit their comms shack, ammo dump, fuel dump and command tent
the second line of shoulder mounted rockets hit their motor pool, "officer's country"(Yes, they foolishly segregated their tents), motor pool again and troop concentrations....

I should mention, we first observed, then planned and planted simulated claymores around their perimeter because they made it easy.
.....They had 3 "shifts" in fox holes. And, when it came time to change shifts, they sent "All the replacements" out at the same time.

So, at the same time we lit the rockets, we each stepped on remote detonators which set off the claymores.....which caught the teams coming in relief "and" the teams being relieved at the same time...

So, in the first seconds of our assault, we had killed:
2/3 of their combat force with the other third just getting into their sleeping bags...
Most of their officers...
All their communications
All of their fuel
Most of their spare ammo
All their key vehicles....

In short, it took four of us 45 minutes to degrade the battalion to the point of surrender.

So, yes, we were a LOT more expensive to train.....but we were a lot more devastating than any large number of average troopers.

Yes, we also had the advantage that we knew how the script was expected to go while they were all just collateral damage, but...
.....again, from actual combat experience, that is how most battles go

Ok so spec ops, which has a role, but so does protecting ground/facility/convoy, supporting whatever future of arty, etc.

It’s a tool. It’s not going to work for everything. Configure to the need.

 

[The Oz]

Battle dress was 'standard issue' for the Imperial Marines, and not the Imperial Army, I think.

I don't even think all Marines had BD; they didn't all get the skill in CharGen, IIRC.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Battle dress was 'standard issue' for the Imperial Marines, and not the Imperial Army, I think.
I don't even think all Marines had BD; they didn't all get the skill in CharGen, IIRC.

I agree it seemed BD was standard issue for some amount of time.
But, I have seen both Canon commentary and published data which suggest there are levels of armory depending on the situation

They are always "loaded for bear" given their situation, however there situation may rise from hardened armor classes below Combat armor to being assigned a shell, be that a Combat Armor or Battledress shell.

Added to that, if your unit is handling a counter insurrection or internal security assignment, the odds are you will have automatic weapons, gauss weapons and have a team where one or two troopers have heavier support weapons.
Generally, unless you are part of an Imperial Interdiction or in a pre-recognized furball, you won't see PGMP or FGMP weapons outside training units.

And, I agree, that would be the Marines, not the Imperial Army

 

[AnotherDilbert]

3) Combat armor "is" the Battledress shell without all the bells and whistles. No BattleComputer, unit integration, target acquisition and adv. targeting. The list goes on.

No, the difference is the augmented strength. The grav belts, comms, sensors, etc. can be built into any suit.

Battledress gives you increased strength and endurance, and therefore the ability to carry more firepower into battle, and that's it for ten times the price...

If you want to put your troops in the field to start with, give them the best tools you can so you can better succeed.

Yes, that is a great way of getting maximum combat power per soldier, but a lousy way of getting maximum combat power per dollar or nation.

The unspoken assumption behind that is that you have much more resources than the enemy, which is probably true if you are a major power in a small war, but probably untrue if you are fighting a major war. This is the British Expeditionary way of fighting colonial wars, which is utterly inadequate to a major land war. It can even fail against colonial rabble and militias occasionally...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

BD is TL13, TL 13 drones and comms will be a lot better than we can imagine.

And how good is TL-13 electronic warfare and jamming?

Agreed, we can't even imagine.