Military tactics for battle dress

[mike wightman]

Do people just stop reading the rules and make stuff up?

Tech level 13: All infantry is generally now in combat Armor and equipped with gauss rifles.
Battle dress is issued to selected assault troops.
Tech level 14: A higher proportion of the infantry is equipped with battle dress, and the
standard small arm for such troops becomes the PGMP-13.
Tech level 15: Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the
FGMP-14. The gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops.

Tech Level 12: Both the plasma C gun and the heavier fusion X gun are introduced in the
air defense and general direct fire role. The now highly mobile A gun completely supplants the
VRF gauss gun in the point defense role. Conventional artillery is almost completely supplanted
by drone missiles.

Tech Level 15: The primary direct fire weapon becomes the battlefield meson accelerator.
Although much smaller than meson accelerators used in planetary defense, it is still by battlefield
standards large, bulky, and extremely lethal. By now, the standard point defense and
direct support weapon becomes the fusion Y gun. Drone missiles enjoy an increase in use as the
appearance of meson accelerators linked to an increasingly sophisticated computer target
acquisition and fire direction system makes the long-range popup increasingly impractical.

Are drones warbots, the Imperium says no, the Hive say what's a warbot, the Zhodani who value life a lot more than the Imperium integrate warbots at the squad level.

By the way MT shows the Imperium do indeed use "warbots"

Now the Imperial Star marine issue. The JTAS article makes it clear all marines are battle dress trained - so instead of the default vacc suit 0 often granted to anyone from a space based career a skill of battle dress 0 should be assumed.

This being Traveller you will find contradictory statements, but the article is likely to be definitive.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Do people just stop reading the rules and make stuff up?

Survey says ... YES.

There's a reason why I have to litter my posts with citations the way that I do (so often).

 

[McPerth]

If you want to put your troops in the field to start with, give them the best tools you can so you can better succeed.

But remember Murphy's Laws of War: Your rifle was built by the one who offered the cheapest contract...

Do people just stop reading the rules and make stuff up?

Battle dress was 'standard issue' for the Imperial Marines, and not the Imperial Army, I think.

Yes, but this has been challenged by many canon sources. Not all Imperial Marines are equipped with BD/FG. mostly for shipboard actions...

And about Imperial Army, its very existence (let alone organization, TOE, etc) is quite contested, as some threads in this board can witness...

 

[Condottiere]

Assume battle dress is terminator armour.

That would put the ratio about ten percent of Marines are allocated them.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Do people just stop reading the rules and make stuff up?

Yes, mostly?

Now the Imperial Star marine issue. The JTAS article makes it clear all marines are battle dress trained - so instead of the default vacc suit 0 often granted to anyone from a space based career a skill of battle dress 0 should be assumed.

Vacc-0 is not enough...

LBB1'80, p22:
Battle dress and combat armor are special forms of armored vacc suit and require at least vacc suit-1 to wear at all.

Marines don't get even Vacc-0 by default in char gen in CT.

This being Traveller you will find contradictory statements, but the article is likely to be definitive.

There has been a few editions since CT, and they generally have their own ideas. I have certainly not read even a fraction of the total text mass, and remember even less.

In CT the JTAS article contradicts the char gen, presumably because the article writers don't read the rules...


So Loren Wiseman presumably just ignored the rules and made stuff up in the JTAS#12 article. Isn't how it's usually done?

 

[mike wightman]

Referee discursion to grant vacc suit 0 to all characters

Default Skills: Often, some characters will have no skills appropriate to a given
situation. A journey across a vacuum plain may be called for, and no one has vacc
suit skill. In such cases, the referee may indicate that all individuals not otherwise
skilled have vacc suit-0. A level of 0 for a skill indicates that the individual can
undertake ordinary activities, but is not experienced enough to try dangerous
activities or fancy actions. Level-0 indicates an orientation to the skill by an experienced
person; it should not be taken as a stepping stone to level-1. Skills appropriate
for level-0 are: airlraft, ATV, forward observer, steward, vacc suit, and
weapons.

So you grant Imperial Star Marines battle dress 0, not vacc suit 0 to indicate basic training.

 

[whartung]

Modern military drones are immune to noise generators.

Jamming is jamming, that's why they call it jamming. Fill a spectrum with white noise, and you're going to have issues.

But, also, a key consideration today is many of the "drones" are not military. They're repurposed civilian kit. Not talking about the high end stuff the US is using (Predators and what not), talking about the drone missiles used in the ME and Asia. Gonna go out on a limb and bet that the Iranian stuff is more a volume product.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Referee discursion to grant vacc suit 0 to all characters

So you grant Imperial Star Marines battle dress 0, not vacc suit 0 to indicate basic training.

You can grant whatever you want as Referee, of course.

But, according to your quote DB-0 skill isn't really enough:

Default Skills: Often, some characters will have no skills appropriate to a given
situation. A journey across a vacuum plain may be called for, and no one has vacc
suit skill. In such cases, the referee may indicate that all individuals not otherwise
skilled have vacc suit-0. A level of 0 for a skill indicates that the individual can
undertake ordinary activities, but is not experienced enough to try dangerous
activities or fancy actions. Level-0 indicates an orientation to the skill by an experienced
person; it should not be taken as a stepping stone to level-1. Skills appropriate
for level-0 are: airlraft, ATV, forward observer, steward, vacc suit, and
weapons.

BD-0 is enough to take a stroll in vacuum, but not enough to fight effectively, at least with energy weapons.


I could easily be persuaded to grant DB-1 skill to any Marines, but not because the rules said it or required it.

 

[McPerth]

Vacc-0 is not enough...

LBB1'80, p22:
Battle dress and combat armor are special forms of armored vacc suit and require at least vacc suit-1 to wear at all.

Marines don't get even Vacc-0 by default in char gen in CT.

But this is LBB1, where Battledress skill didn't exist, and Vacc Suit was used. From LBB4 on, Battledress skill was required to use it, while Vacc Suit allowed the use of Combat Armor.

In CT the JTAS article contradicts the char gen, presumably because the article writers don't read the rules...

It's worse than this, as MIke's quotes are not from the article, but from CT:LBB4 (mercenary) itself, the same one that does not give all the Marines Battledress skills...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But this is LBB1, where Battledress skill didn't exist, and Vacc Suit was used. From LBB4 on, Battledress skill was required to use it, while Vacc Suit allowed the use of Combat Armor.

Not quite, you can use BD with Vacc skill, but not to fire hi-recoil energy weapons:

LBB4, p10:
As indicated in Book 1, indrviduals with Vacc Suit expertise may also use battle dress and this is not modified by this rule. However, a number of highly sophisticated weapon systems are designed for use specifically and exclusively with battle dress, and only Battle Dress expertise allows use of the weapon systems without danger of damage to the system.

FGMP-14 required BD skill, FGMP-15 (and rifles) does not.

It's worse than this, as MIke's quotes are not from the article, but from CT:LBB4 (mercenary) itself, the same one that does not give all the Marines Battledress skills...

LBB4, p43:

Tech level 15: Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the FGMP-14. The gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops.

Some are, some are not. Nothing specific is stated.

JTAS#12, p44:

All marines are equipped with battle dress, and are armed with FGMP-14s.

All Marines use BD, and are hopefully trained accordingly.


I think Mike is relying on the certainty of the JTAS article for his argument.

 

[BlackBat242]

But remember Murphy's Laws of War: Your rifle was built by the one who offered the cheapest contract...

Your rifle was built by the one who offered the cheapest contract...while still meeting the minimum acceptable durability, reliability, serviceability, and functionality standards set in the contract award specifications.

Unless the award board was sufficiently bribed {err... incentivized} of course.

 

[Commander Truestar]

But remember Murphy's Laws of War: Your rifle was built by the one who offered the cheapest contract...

Sorry, but no.

As I keep telling my players, this is not the United States and is not even Earth.
While we have little data from Canon sources how Imperial armory is sourced, there is zero reason to believe they do so by "Lowest bid submitted"

IMO, it is more likely, that a Cousin of an Uncle of a friend of the local Duke or Duchess selected a source if that source was not selected because it was owned by a blood relative.
Added to that, I expect that existing manufacturers have not lost their contracts either because their armory have performed well enough, or they are tied to a MegaCrop who can "manage the contract".

As a result, I would expect the foxhole axiom to be "Remember, your weapon was made by the most corrupt and powerful thief" than anything else.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Not quite, you can use BD with Vacc skill, but not to fire hi-recoil energy weapons:

FGMP-14 required BD skill, FGMP-15 (and rifles) does not.

LBB4, p43:
Some are, some are not. Nothing specific is stated.

JTAS#12, p44:
All Marines use BD, and are hopefully trained accordingly.

I think Mike is relying on the certainty of the JTAS article for his argument.

Ouch!
I missed these comments....thank you for posting them

 

[Commander Truestar]

No, the difference is the augmented strength. The grav belts, comms, sensors, etc. can be built into any suit.

Battledress gives you increased strength and endurance, and therefore the ability to carry more firepower into battle, and that's it for ten times the price...

OK, addressing this comment is a bit of an assumption.
While all the "extra gear" can be built into something else, will that "something else" be able to carry it
....and the battle computer too? Yes, you did not mention that above

One assumes the augmented exoskeleton (Exo to the trooper) inside the armor is also needed to operate the exoskeleton too.
So, that "appears" to be a specialized component of Battledress.

Finally, I admit it is an assumption, but I expect that Battledress is the most efficient means of combining all these toys together in a usable armor package. If not, there would be some commentary about "less-than-dress" suits which compete with Battledress.
No, those would not come out in the rules themselves, but would appear in gear catalogs, game-related official fiction, etc.

When I read your comment "The grav belts, comms, sensors, etc. can be built into any suit.", I got the vision of Ralphie's little brother Randy all bundled up in "A Christmas Story" while the battledressed troopers laugh and spin them around after they've fallen and can't get up...

 

[Commander Truestar]

Yes, that is a great way of getting maximum combat power per soldier, but a lousy way of getting maximum combat power per dollar or nation.

The unspoken assumption behind that is that you have much more resources than the enemy, which is probably true if you are a major power in a small war, but probably untrue if you are fighting a major war. This is the British Expeditionary way of fighting colonial wars, which is utterly inadequate to a major land war. It can even fail against colonial rabble and militias occasionally...

No one ever said war was efficient.
In fact, one significant way to make your point in warfare is to "not be efficient"
Where the bulk of the Third Imperium is "never" fully at war, it would take a war engulfing a massive amount of the Empire to drain that much of the Imperial income.
As a result, I am willing to bet the Imperial militaries can ignore value per Credit in favor of "Put them down and make a statement doing it".

Again, this is not Terra Circa 2020 BCE.
This is a very large, wide-spread empire where "putting them down and sending a message" is more valuable than "save us some Credits on this short term war."
The more we spend blasting them to space dust with overwhelming (and hugely expensive) force.....the more we save by preventing many other systems from getting the same idea or acting on it.

"The Emperor spent Billions of Credits on a Million-credit war to save Trillions in fighting a million "million-credit wars"...

 

[whartung]

IMO, it is more likely, that a Cousin of an Uncle of a friend of the local Duke or Duchess selected a source if that source was not selected because it was owned by a blood relative.

Good heavens, that's even worse.

At least the low bidders have skin in the game. Future contracts, liabilities, penalties for not delivering or delivering substandard product, prison and fines for fraud.

Amazing the Imperial guns don't just go "click" and the vacc suits hold air.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on how fast you need to restock, and the military industrial complex's influence on decision making.

 

[kilemall]

OK, addressing this comment is a bit of an assumption.
While all the "extra gear" can be built into something else, will that "something else" be able to carry it
....and the battle computer too? Yes, you did not mention that above

One assumes the augmented exoskeleton (Exo to the trooper) inside the armor is also needed to operate the exoskeleton too.
So, that "appears" to be a specialized component of Battledress.

Finally, I admit it is an assumption, but I expect that Battledress is the most efficient means of combining all these toys together in a usable armor package. If not, there would be some commentary about "less-than-dress" suits which compete with Battledress.
No, those would not come out in the rules themselves, but would appear in gear catalogs, game-related official fiction, etc.

When I read your comment "The grav belts, comms, sensors, etc. can be built into any suit.", I got the vision of Ralphie's little brother Randy all bundled up in "A Christmas Story" while the battledressed troopers laugh and spin them around after they've fallen and can't get up...

The Striker definition of BD functionality includes a carry capacity of 100kg, so I use that for determining extra geegaws limits like PD lasers, missiles, power packs, air tanks and my aforementioned slab of shield.

 

[kilemall]

Good heavens, that's even worse.

At least the low bidders have skin in the game. Future contracts, liabilities, penalties for not delivering or delivering substandard product, prison and fines for fraud.

Amazing the Imperial guns don't just go "click" and the vacc suits hold air.

This may be one of those rarefied nobility polices its own sort of things. The working nobles running subsectors, navies and marines have access to levels of justice and retribution that can keep the scandal quiet while punish, or go full out shaming and SOC stripping.

Not to mention the chance that some beloved progeny may be doing their turn at hero honor/SOC building in the Marines and getting those killed with substandard equipment is going to make it personal.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

OK, addressing this comment is a bit of an assumption.
While all the "extra gear" can be built into something else, will that "something else" be able to carry it
....and the battle computer too? Yes, you did not mention that above

E.g. by MgT, yes.
Central Supply Catalog'23, pp20 has options for all armour and vacc suits, such as e.g. Computer Weave, IFF HUD, and Grav Assist.
pp44 has additional (large, heavy) options only for battle dress, such as anti-missile systems, gun mounts, flight packs, and heavy plating.
Hi-tech personal electronics are fairly light and generally fits on any armour, but counts against encumbrance.

One assumes the augmented exoskeleton (Exo to the trooper) inside the armor is also needed to operate the exoskeleton too.
So, that "appears" to be a specialized component of Battledress.

Yes, that is the point of battle dress?

The "exoskeleton", the enhanced strength and endurance allows you to carry heavier stuff, for longer. That's it.
Isn't that enough of an advantage?