More Than Just A Furry Suit

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by flykiller:
well that's all competition within various frameworks of various rules, refereed by superiors and owners and, frequently, subordinates. humans do this all the time. what we don't see, and what doesn't seem possible as a way of life above that of stoneage, is a single person deciding a superior is weak, physically removing that superior, and then announcing to everyone above and below him that he now has that superior's position.
=================================================
Interesting discussion so far! nods to all above posters

In defense of Vargr

Fly, you seem caught in the web of the words "and he beat him into submission" and assumed control in the charisma challenge thing Vargr are known for.

Charisma challenges are not all violent ones...

The ever present one-upsmanship/ brinksmanship does occur in their society. Like the wolf-pack example they were based off of (ty Ran for the descriptive!)..

Success, and continued successes = mantaining charisma. Failures (in any endeavor in whatever walk/ career path )in life they have make leadership positions precarious.

The Vargr indeed measure a sophont's "charisma" based on their deeds, and keeping one's word, and aderence to the Pack's goals.

A Vargr scientist technician who discovers the cure for a disease, immediately rises to the top of his field...over the project manager who led the pack/team to the cure..[barring subtle/not so subtle attempts to co-opt his/her victory by said manager of course!]

The Vargr athlete who achieves victory in a competitive sport instantly sees the benefits of this effect, as rpidly as the defeated one does the opposite.

The Vargr Military service person likewise follows the victories and defeats of his/her leaders avidly as humans follow favorite sporting teams. Whom will I serve? to whom will I gain prestige/charisma from by serving with?

The Vargr Professional likewise looks at his/her firm the same way, and the managers thereof. Its not just is the stock going up in it, are they innovative? Are they popular with the customer base? Are they scandal ridden? Do their cargoes arrive on time as promised? Do they oppose properly attempts at hijacking their company [by corsairs/ and or corporate rivals--or are they weak, and easily defeated in the market place?]

You see where this applies to Vargr society across the strata of their livelihoods? The Vargr love to follow a winner--no matter the career path. Life is too short to hang with the losers.

Mercurial, yes. Human, no.

CJ Cherryh's thesis speech at a SF con I once attended on writing aliens was this:

"we anthropomorphize as humans too much. Take away one thing from humanity, an emotion, an ideal, what have you and run with it for your aliens, and they will be."

In the Foreigner series, the Atevi have no concept of the emotion of 'love' at all. What replaces it and how it is applied makes them aline--not just their appearance/ abilities.

The original poster had the excellent idea of comparing the man'chi of CJ's Atevi aliens to this concept and he's dead on the nail with it.
I too, suggest you read the Foreigner series.

Others here have used the ST aliens the Klingons as similiar outlook in warlike aggression--victories choose the leaders..and in that they've hit that aspect of the Vargr.

With prestige to be gained, and lost on success, Vargr are daring and will risk much to win the brass ring in any walk of their lives..

YMMV, of course.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:

<snip>

A Vargr scientist technician who discovers the cure for a disease, immediately rises to the top of his field...over the project manager who led the pack/team to the cure..[barring subtle/not so subtle attempts to co-opt his/her victory by said manager of course!]

The Vargr athlete who achieves victory in a competitive sport instantly sees the benefits of this effect, as rpidly as the defeated one does the opposite.

The Vargr Military service person likewise follows the victories and defeats of his/her leaders avidly as humans follow favorite sporting teams. Whom will I serve? to whom will I gain prestige/charisma from by serving with?

The Vargr Professional likewise looks at his/her firm the same way, and the managers thereof. Its not just is the stock going up in it, are they innovative? Are they popular with the customer base? Are they scandal ridden? Do their cargoes arrive on time as promised? Do they oppose properly attempts at hijacking their company [by corsairs/ and or corporate rivals--or are they weak, and easily defeated in the market place?]

<snip>

YMMV, of course.

[aside]Liam, do you by any chance have disable graemlins checked in your posts or in your profile?[/aside]

 

[Liam Devlin]

[aside] Indeed, beseems I did, ty Sigg.[/aside]

 

[mike wightman]

Would the Aslan benefit from being presented as another uplifted race rather than a coincidence of evolution?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Good question, Sigg.

I do think they need better role-playing by we as GM's to avoid the "TV-actors in furry suits" anthropomorphic stereotyping they get as general rule.

Accentuating their cultural differences more, the territorial quest instincts, honor, and loyalty doesn't always seem to come across as 'alien', rather more intense versions of what humans have done.

The Aslan have their challenge system to replacing leadership, but it is more ritualized and formal than the Vargr.

Aramis has an excellent point that they seem to e in denial there. DGP legal issues aside, the OTU says they are not uplifted.

Now if we use the Cherryh thesis to them, what part of humanity do we remove to make them more 'mysterious/alien"?

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You don't just walk up from the mail room, beat up a manager, and tell everyone that you have his job now. no-one would accept that, and it wouldn't work even if they did.

Of course it wouldn't, you don't have the Charisma to take the job from THE MANAGER...yet...
But, in a Vargr-style Human-World, you might beat up the Mailroom Manager and get away with it... </font>[/QUOTE]by "don't have the Charisma", do you mean "aren't qualified"?

can charisma substitute for competence?

 

[flykiller]

Fly, you seem caught in the web of the words "and he beat him into submission" and assumed control in the charisma challenge thing Vargr are known for.

actually no, I was focusing in on "But I thought I was right on target, particularly for a Vargr who was conditioned by years of living with his own kind.", i.e. an individual physically removing a leader acutely perceived to be less-than-optimum is normal vargr practice.

A Vargr scientist technician who discovers the cure for a disease, immediately rises to the top of his field...over the project manager who led the pack/team to the cure.

did the vargr who removed his captain on his own recognizance rise to the top of his field based on any recognized measure of his own success? or did he simply remove his captain?

 

[Liam Devlin]

It boils down to the "Success-vs-Failure" principle, Flykiller. Follow the winners, and depose the losers.

He removed the failure, and it was then imposed upon his character to do a better job than the previous leader (the other player-human character). For more detail as to the outcome, the poster who's tale this is should answer it better, but this is my interpretation of his post, okay?

In the case of the Vargr scientist technician, his success at finding the cure was his personal charisma/prestige rose--he got the credit and if he was the lowest on the team charisma wise, he certainly wasn't afterwards...this is an example of peaceful succession Vargr-Vargr wise.

 

[alanb]

Competence is related to charisma. If you obviously can't do the job, you haven't got the charisma to take it. Or, at least, "your subordinates" won't follow you.

If it's not so obvious that you can't do it, you might be able to get away with it for a while. But eventually you will fail, and be removed.

The best way to think of Vargr in a positive light, in my opinion, is to emphasise the flexibility in their societies. Where humans will hesitate before changing things that don't work, the Vargr won't. In cases where more than one option is possible, the Vargr will usually try all of them, before generally gravitating to the one that works best.

In short, Vargr society operates by something of an evolutionary process. What works is generally favoured, while what doesn't is generally abandoned. Successful leaders are followed, while failures are removed.

And, furthermore, the Vargr are less hidebound than humans. They will try new things when humans will behave conservatively and act "by the book". Sometimes they will run into the reasons why going by the book is a good idea, but often enough they will find a better way of doing things.

No, it's not human, but it allows for survival and progress.

I don't think the example that was given about the PC Vargr was a good general example of Vargr behaviour, incidentally. Yes, for corsairs, that would be fair enough, but such a challenger would also have to be certain that the rest of the crew would follow them.

A final thought: since the Vargr are so good at evolving and adjusting to changing circumstances, there is a fair chance that in the long run they will end up displacing humaniti as the dominant species in Known Space.

Which is probably part of why the Ancients created them.

 

[flykiller]

It boils down to the "Success-vs-Failure" principle, Flykiller. Follow the winners, and depose the losers.

yes, of course. that is what this whole discussion is about. can success be achieved by the means being discussed?

He removed the failure, and it was then imposed upon his character to do a better job than the previous leader (the other player-human character).

was imposed - by who? one might want to demonstrate competence to the decision makers (whoever they are - the chain of command, the shareholders, the crew) before taking command, not after. and being aggressive and decisive and beating the existing superior flat does not demonstrate qualification.

For more detail as to the outcome, the poster who's tale this is should answer it better ....

agreed.

In the case of the Vargr scientist technician, his success at finding the cure was his personal charisma/prestige rose--he got the credit and if he was the lowest on the team charisma wise, he certainly wasn't afterwards...this is an example of peaceful succession Vargr-Vargr wise.

yes, of course. but we're not talking about that, we're talking about unpeaceful unproductive unplanned unregulated what-have-you-done-to-impress-me-in-the-last-twenty-four-hours succession. can it work as a cultural practice in any advanced society?

it occurs to me ...

imagine, not only the pressure on leaders to perform, but on subordinates in their quest to advance. imagine the influence ignorance and wishful thinking would exert on subordinates. such influences would have to be ruthlessly acknowledged and ruthlessly crushed for any kind of on-the-spot leader bashing to work. vargr would have to rabidly pursue education, training, testing, and other shows of competence throughout their lives, to be ready for when the time comes to step up to a leader and say, "I know you're wrong and I'm taking over". a race devoted to overwhelming excellence for the sake of personal advancement through justifiable insubordination. sort of an ayn rand meets the japanese klingons.

 

[flykiller]

Competence is related to charisma.

in english, competence and charisma are simply two different things without any natural relationship. when the vargr are discussed each seem to be used interchangeably, but it's a misuse of the words unless they're redefined.

If it's not so obvious that you can't do it, you might be able to get away with it for a while. But eventually you will fail, and be removed.

but that's the whole problem. what if the consequences of failure are not just simple removal of the leader? what if your research department loses all credibility? what if your skyscraper falls down? what if you lose a battle? in the example cited that started this discussion the previous captain had proved he was at least capable of keeping the ship intact - what if the replacement had proved incapable of that? is after-the-fact removal of the leader a sufficient response to failure?

failures can be costly to everyone around. unless one has an unlimited supply of resources and time (like in japanese anime) any culture will seek to avoid and control failure, not simply respond to it.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by flykiller:
in english, competence and charisma are simply two different things without any natural relationship. when the vargr are discussed each seem to be used interchangeably, but it's a misuse of the words unless they're redefined.

Which is, in fact, the case. The Vargr concept we call "charisma" is a non-human concept that can't be encapsulated within a single word in any human language.

Which means, of course, that all of use here understand it in different ways. But that's OK, because the Vargr understand it in different ways too!

failures can be costly to everyone around. unless one has an unlimited supply of resources and time (like in japanese anime) any culture will seek to avoid and control failure, not simply respond to it.

The Vargr do this by ensuring the right person is in the right job at the right time.

 

[flykiller]

The Vargr do this by ensuring the right person is in the right job at the right time.

uh ... if I understand everything that's been said about them so far, no. they don't. leadership and authority is determined on a moment-by-moment trial-and-error basis, with the most gung-ho and aggressive let-me-try! contestants being given top priority. even if such a culture could build an advanced society, that society could not survive the errors of great consequence that would regularly hammer it. the vargr world would resemble downtown tokyo in a japanese monster movie.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by flykiller:
[QUOTEleadership and authority is determined on a moment-by-moment trial-and-error basis, with the most gung-ho and aggressive let-me-try! contestants being given top priority.

Who has been saying that?

You are, of course, correct that such a society couldn't work. But there is no evidence that the Vargr operate like that. In fact, the canonical evidence is that there is no single Vargr way of operating.

The notion that there is is a perfect example of "furry suit" thinking.

 

[Whipsnade]

Interesting posts in an interesting thread.

The only detailed descriptions in canon of Vargr social interactions that I am aware of are in MegaTraveller, specifically in the DGP 'Antiquity' adventure and in the DGP written - GDW published Vilani and Vargr.

Do Vargr 'pecking orders' depend on charisma? Yes. Human 'pecking orders' to also, the Vargr are just more open about it. The Vargr seem acutely aware of their social standing and the scoial standing of everyone around them at any given moment. I have always thought it like the concerns regarding 'face' in some human cultures taken to the nth degree.

Does charisma always equate physical agression? No. Having the biggest guns, the biggest muscles, and the least compunction about using either does not grant you leadership. Again, the acute social awareness of your fellow Vargr will judge whether your resort to violence was 'correct' or not. You can actually lose charisma by slappig around the wrong people at the wrong time.

The 'Antiquity' adventure has good examples of both these observations.

DGP's 'Four Knights' are visiting the 57th Century of a tourist trap; the Ancient facility on Antiquity, when they and a party of Vargr 'scientists' get trapped in an operational part of the complex no one knew even existed.

For NPCs, the Vargr party is detailed quite nicely. The leader is not the best Vargr scientist there. In fact, by human standards, he's hardly a scientist at all. Neither is he the best warrior. A number of bullies and gun-bunnies eagerly follow him although they all could mop the floor with him. So, why is he the leader? Because he's convinced all the other Vargr and convinced himself that he is the best Vargr for the job.

He has got charisma.

Because of the leader's charisma, the real scientist doesn't mind having his ideas used by the leader. Where a human would eventually complain that his work is being stolen, a Vargr would be happy to trade those ideas for the few crumbs of charisma they can gain from being associated with such a charismatic individual. (Think about that for a bit, there are humans who would act the same way too.)

Because of the leader's charisma, the bullies and gun-bunnies don't mind doing his bidding. They could beat him up or shoot him, but once again, they are currently content to bask in his reflective charisma.

It sounds like a con game - and it is - but the con artist in question is conning himself too. That makes it somewhat different from human norms.

There is another important difference too. Unlike human 'marks', Vargr don't stayed 'conned' for long. A leader must continually prove himself else he either be replaced or his followers walk. No Vargr get's to 'dine out' on past glory for long. It's a constant case of 'what have you done for me lately'. To have charisma, you must use and display charisma constantly. You must always be 'on'.

One canonical source refers to Vargr society as resembling the warrior societies in Plains Indian tribes. The Souix are specifically mentioned, IIRC.


Bill

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
He removed the failure, and it was then imposed upon his character to do a better job than the previous leader (the other player-human character). For more detail as to the outcome, the poster who's tale this is should answer it better, but this is my interpretation of his post, okay?

^ And that's my cue ...

The Vargr corsair in question was serving as pilot onboard a "liberated" Gazelle under the pseudo-command of an ex-Imperial Navy flag officer. The Gazelle was won after a boarding incident gone bad and some quick thinking by the Vargr (so he thought he had greater stake in its operation).

The incident I described was not the first conflict that occured between these characters. They had a history of disagreeing on most everything, if only because one was ex-Nav (and a snob) and the other an experienced pirate. The Vargr was just as capable a spacer as the ex-Nav so competence was not an issue, just outlook. And when the ex-Nav began imposing his will on the group because he was senior and only he knew the location of the object they were seeking, the Vargr took that as a play for dominance over him. Then, when the situation turned dire and life and death was in the balance, the Vargr determined to take action as the ex-Nav was not leading the group in a direction that guaranteed success.

The result was inevitable, as far as I was concerned, even if both parties were human. Being a Vargr was just a good excuse

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
There is another important difference too. Unlike human 'marks', Vargr don't stayed 'conned' for long. A leader must continually prove himself else he either be replaced or his followers walk. No Vargr get's to 'dine out' on past glory for long. It's a constant case of 'what have you done for me lately'. To have charisma, you must use and display charisma constantly. You must always be 'on'.


Bill

This is sounding more like how media celebrities gain followers more than anything else to me. Kinda like the rise and fall of popularity of a rock star or an actor/actress amoung humans.

Now to take it one step further, it would seem to me that there would be public relations helpers in Vargr society who would act to help perpetuate the 'cult of personality' around a particular Vargr - especially when the central Vargr involved is weeks away by starship. Does this idea make sense? Or am I being nuttily sleep-deprived again?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

flykiller has a great point: Charisma is a bad word (in some ways) for what we are talking about with the Vargr. Prestige might be a more accurate term. (And, of course, this is the problem with having a limited number of stats to represent a whole person - it will always be a limited description.) I have thought that Social Standing was a fine label for what the Vargr were dealing with - it just moves around a bit more than with Humans.

Jeff, your idea is great. And, it dovetails nicely with Bill's statements.

 

[mike wightman]

Vargr space full of spin doctors

 

[Madarin Dude]

Just watch your dog. I had a very popular dog for a while the other dogs held him in high regard and in one incident a larger dog laid down and got urinated on and liked it. Now that is charisma.
I think of it as a combination of charisma compentence and connections.