Mystery UWPs of the Regina Subsector (possible Spoilers)

[Spinward Scout]

I've found a few discrepancies or mysteries on the Regina subsector map. This will make you think (and probably laugh).

Let's start with the first on the list.

Efate 0105 A646930 D N W Industrial.
Starport A
Size 6
Atmo Thin, Tainted
60% Hydrographics
Billions of Inhabitants

Pretty normal looking until you get to...

Law Level 3 - Weapons of a strict military nature prohibited

Prohibited by who?

Government Type 0

Billions of Inhabitants and no government?

And Tech Level 13?

With no government?

What's their secret?


The plot thickens...


Yres 0202 BAC6773 7 Gas Giant
Starport B
Size A
Insidious Atmo
60% Water
Tens of Millions of Inhabitants
Law Level 7
Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy

It's all good until...

Tech Level 7

In an Insidious Atmo?

Ok, strange, but not impossible. As long as they have the Tech to protect themselves from the Atmosphere... Do they? At TL7?


But wait, there's more...


Menorb has Hydrographics of 20%, Billions of Inhabitants, but Tech Level 7. They must use all of their innovation and technical creativity in the search for water so those Billions don't die of thirst. Again, strange, but not impossible.


And...


Forboldn is a colony according to The Traveller Book Library Data, with colonists sent from the Imperial Core, but it's only Tech Level 4? Those cheap bureaucrats in the Core sure know how to pick the lowest bidder.


And a few more...


Pixie is a Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy with a starport of A and less than 100 inhabitants at Tech 13. Everybody must work at the Starport. Or it's a Cult Compound. Wow, they sure would depend on trade. Unless they are manufacturing all of those TL13 goodies themselves. Now THAT sounds like the beginning of a colony. Unlike Forboldn.


Hefry is 0% Atmo, 0% Water, Tens of Thousands of Inhabitants, but Tech Level 7. Do they have the technology to be there?


Roup is a Tech Level 6 Waterworld with Billions of Inhabitants. I bet they've got their SCUBA diving technology locked in.
Kids: "Dad, what are we going to do for fun tonite?"
Dad: "We're going swimming!"
Kids: "Again?!?"


Dentus is Hundreds of Thousands of Inhabitants at Tech Level A with No Law Level and No Government. And a Class C Starport. Dentus and Efate are either Paradices or War Zones.


Enope Has Trace Atmo, but Billions of Inhabitants at TL6. Do they have the Tech to even build a Vacc Suit?


Wochiers Has a Law Level of C. In The Traveller Book, Imperial Fringe, AND Supplement 3. Um... doesn't Law Level only go up to 9? (But I bet their amplifiers turn up to 11)


Yorbund has an Insidious Atmo but TL7. How are these people building protection from the Atmo?


This one really makes me laugh...


Shionthy is a Red Zone interdicted Asteroid Belt, that has No Atmo and No Water with Tens of Millions of Inhabitants at TL8. What do they drink and breathe? Because they sure aren't shipping in any trade items like Oxygen and Water when it's interdicted.


Yurst is a Corrosive Atmo with Millions of Inhabitants at TL5. Again, with what Tech are they protecting themselves from the Atmosphere.


Keng is also Law Level C. Yes, in all three of the books mentioned for Wochiers.


Rethe is a Desert World with Tens of Billions of Inhabitants at TL8. Class E Starport. Whereas I hear the Festival is fun, where are they getting water from? It COULD all be underground - but very improbable.


Well, I see I have a lot of work ahead of me justifying all of this for a campaign - or leaving it for players to find as discrepancies after I fix it. Some improbable, but some just plain impossible.

Anyone else come across these problems?

Scout, Over and Out (and still laughing)

 

[aramis]

TL 7 is clearly enough for some form of underground or space-hab civilization.

We have the technology, and have had since the 1960's, to build a large hab-ring. It will need frequent outside critter inputs, as did the biohabs of the 1970's, and TL7 has fission reactors.

TL6 habs, well, provided it's not an otherwise inimical environment, sure, they could build pressure sealed habs. After all, we've been building working subs since TL5. I would expect solar steam heating...

Forboldn: can you say "regressionists"? Y'know, people who can't handle high-tech life, so they got shipped out... probably asked for a distant world, far from their old homes, shipped frozen, hoping for a new life.

Or, perhaps, the homeless, the hapless, and the witless shipped out forcibly, again, frozen, as an experiment in eugenics. Maybe a former prison colony.

Dentus: Or, perhaps, a series of private estates. No one answers to anyone... each of the say 20 estates has a staff of a few hundred, some being enserfed, others on company store, others still there by choice.

Shionthy is the Imperial Antimatter Mining Facility. Don't recall the source, but it's out there. Ancients carved it up with Antimatter converters.

Yurst: Probably underground. Or in orbital habs, probably quite scary...

Law Level: No, it's possible to have LL up to 17 on the dice, and nowhere does it cap it. They are defined to effect (A+) in later editions.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

You may want to re-check your UPP decoder ring. You wrote:
>Efate 0105 A646930 D N W Industrial.

The last three are Population, Government, and Law Level. That is, Govt Type = 3, and Law Level = 0.

Trust me, in the Zhodani Conspiracy I made a killing buying FGMP's on Efate and shipping them elsewhere - to Alell, from memory.

"Non, non, monsieur Customs officer, it eez n'est pas une FGMP, it eez merely une French Loaf!!"

 

[Spinward Scout]

Thanks!

I also thought after I posted that the waterworld one might be a Minor Alien race that lives in the water. There could be other explainations for a couple of those.

 

[Spinward Scout]

The last three are Population, Government, and Law Level. That is, Govt Type = 3, and Law Level = 0.

Grrr. The Traveller Book 'Worlds' section makes it look like Pop, Law, THEN Gov.

Thanks!

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi Scout !

Ho, ho.
The TU is such a wonderful place.

I've found a few discrepancies or mysteries on the Regina subsector map. This will make you think (and probably laugh).
...
Efate 0105 A646930 D N W Industrial.
...
What's their secret?

Efate has perhaps finished a sociological/philosophical development by recognizing, that a government is just needed, when the inhabitants where convinved by a government, that it is needed
No, a bit more seriously, perhaps at TL13 the TL is able to let the major problems (energy, environment, food, production) be handled on a very local scale. OTOH there might be a community with strong cultural/traditional bounds. Governmental functions might be so distributed in society, that it is not possible to identify a structure "government" any more.

The plot thickens...

Yres 0202 BAC6773 7 Gas Giant
Ok, strange, but not impossible. As long as they have the Tech to protect themselves from the Atmosphere... Do they? At TL7?

TL7 really is not so low. Described as someway around the 70s, you got everything to set up appropriate habitats, especially if one assumes a "need centered" technology.
I really like GS/GC approach to split TL into different fields, allowing some peaks e.g. in environmental technologies.

But wait, there's more...
Menorb has Hydrographics of 20%, Billions of Inhabitants, but Tech Level 7. They must use all of their innovation and technical creativity in the search for water so those Billions don't die of thirst. Again, strange, but not impossible.

20% of surface water should be enough. Its still an enourmous amount of water and BTW you never know how deep the oceans actually are....

And...
Forboldn is a colony according to The Traveller Book Library Data, with colonists sent from the Imperial Core, but it's only Tech Level 4? Those cheap bureaucrats in the Core sure know how to pick the lowest bidder.

Well, perhaps they suffered from a world wide crisis, or the techlevel decrease happened on a voluntary basis ?
Another eco-planet ? No industry, no nuclear power ?

And a few more...
Pixie is a Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy with a starport of A and less than 100 inhabitants at Tech 13. Everybody must work at the Starport. Or it's a Cult Compound. Wow, they sure would depend on trade. Unless they are manufacturing all of those TL13 goodies themselves. Now THAT sounds like the beginning of a colony. Unlike Forboldn.

Errr, one of the "fully automated starport / ship building" projects of the TU ?
At TL13 this should'nt be a problem. A frightening place.

Hefry is 0% Atmo, 0% Water, Tens of Thousands of Inhabitants, but Tech Level 7. Do they have the technology to be there?

As said, TL 7 is not that bad.

Roup is a Tech Level 6 Waterworld with Billions of Inhabitants. I bet they've got their SCUBA diving technology locked in.
Kids: "Dad, what are we going to do for fun tonite?"
Dad: "We're going swimming!"
Kids: "Again?!?"

Still up to 5% landmass.
Lets assume just 1%. So still several millions square km's. A bit crowded, but perhaps not as bad a Mexcio City. Ho ho.

Dentus is Hundreds of Thousands of Inhabitants at Tech Level A with No Law Level and No Government. And a Class C Starport. Dentus and Efate are either Paradices or War Zones.

Yep, but I would expect the first option.

Enope Has Trace Atmo, but Billions of Inhabitants at TL6. Do they have the Tech to even build a Vacc Suit?

Perhaps another example for TL specialisation.
What we perhaps should keep in mind, that everybody dwells around in a TU of a spacefaring civilisation, where technological knowledge diffuses down, or better, "optimizes" local productions capabilities.

...
This one really makes me laugh...
Shionthy is a Red Zone interdicted Asteroid Belt, that has No Atmo and No Water with Tens of Millions of Inhabitants at TL8. What do they drink and breathe? Because they sure aren't shipping in any trade items like Oxygen and Water when it's interdicted.

A space tech centered TL8 is well enough to get along.
Radioactive waste from the numerous fission plants is stored on some rocks, which are send to the central star from time to time...

Yurst is a Corrosive Atmo with Millions of Inhabitants at TL5. Again, with what Tech are they protecting themselves from the Atmosphere.

Yep, a bit at the edge, but perhaps there is an Imperial Support program for the LS systems running here ...

...
Rethe is a Desert World with Tens of Billions of Inhabitants at TL8. Class E Starport. Whereas I hear the Festival is fun, where are they getting water from? It COULD all be underground - but very improbable.

A desert world still might have a hyd percentage of 0 to 4.
Or perhaps large ice caps. Hyd percentage just is a note an freestanding water ...

Well, I see I have a lot of work ahead of me justifying all of this for a campaign - or leaving it for players to find as discrepancies after I fix it. Some improbable, but some just plain impossible.

Anyone else come across these problems?

Scout, Over and Out (and still laughing)

To be honest, I have more problems with speaking upright dogs, lions or with centauer-like aliens and with the feudal focus in the TU.
With regards to the UWPs and planet most stuff could be explained somehow, if they are related to cultural/technological aspect.
Its a bit more complicate to communicate physically strange worlds, like size 2 worlds with dense atmo, but IMHO most players will not care anyway.

But beyond that the TU is excellent.


regards,

TE

 

[Vargas]

In the past I treated Efate as if it had no formal government but instead had a set of unwritten customs and traditions which acted as a check on powerful individuals and organizations. I figured your word is your bond and if you break your word, no one will deal with you.

 

[pendragonman]

As to those inhabitants of worlds who's tech level seam to preclude intelligent life:

Please remember that man is a VERY adaptable animal. I suspect that these worlds are actually humaniti that has become genetically adapted to its current environment. Like mermen for the water world, or different lung structures to breath whatever atmosphere they have, etc.

As to those poor saps in the interdicted asteroid belt: I seem to recall a couple of Sci Fi stories that proclaimed some of the asteroids were actually ice. Suppose that some of that asteroid belt is ice. Then all they have to do for oxygen is crack the water, and since "refining" water for hydrogen fuel gives oxygen as a byproduct...

Then those law level zero fellas, I follow the idea of local traditions that replace law level without interdicting law level.

 

[Spinward Scout]

In the past I treated Efate as if it had no formal government but instead had a set of unwritten customs and traditions which acted as a check on powerful individuals and organizations. I figured your word is your bond and if you break your word, no one will deal with you.

I see I'm not the only one that saw it as Pop, Law, then Gov. Interesting. Let me look through the rest of my books. I wonder what the other versions list the UWP as.

Thanks everybody!

 

[Hemdian]

Be careful reading UWP stats. They might not be saying what you think they are saying.

TL represents local *production* ability. Tech can be imported. (The 'non-industrial' trade code supports this.) So, for example, in Shionthy the locals mine high value minerals or ores and exchange them for spaceships and vacc suits. And Forboldn is a colony world whose local industrial base is slowly being bootstrapped by colonists arriving with high tech habitation units.

The population digit represents permanent local residents. On Pixie the starport and naval base personnel are transients (offworld workers) who aren't included in the local census.

LL may not apply globally. On Efate there is a moderate LL in the relatively safe cities, but parts of the outback are completely lawless. This is due to the on-again-off-again civil war with the Ine Givar.

Regards PLST

 

[Vargas]

TL represents local *production* ability. Tech can be imported. (The 'non-industrial' trade code supports this.) So, for example, in Shionthy the locals mine high value minerals or ores and exchange them for spaceships and vacc suits. And Forboldn is a colony world whose local industrial base is slowly being bootstrapped by colonists arriving with high tech habitation units.

The population digit represents permanent local residents. On Pixie the starport and naval base personnel are transients (offworld workers) who aren't included in the local census.

Not to quibble, but aren't these ways of interpreting the UWP stats and not hard and fast rules? It seems to me that there has been more than a little debate on how to read these stats, debate that wouldn't have happened in the presence of explicit rules.

I could be wrong though.

 

[aramis]

Given that
1) Prices on consumer items are adjusted based upon the relationship of the item's TL and the local TL (CT Bk3)
2) Ships can only be built to local TL (CT Bk2)
3) TNE's World Tamer's Handbook explicitly makes it local production capability
4) DGP's World Builder's breaks it out into a variety of submeasures, including local production in the most useful: High common and low common.

It's pretty well established that local production is a major component.

 

[leadhead]

On Efate, the government of 3 means an oligarchy while the law level of 0 applies to weapons possession. Index law level is an indication of gun control laws, not necessarily ALL laws.

Efate may have strict laws on many things but no gun control. The oligarchs may realize that an armed citizenry is necessary given the on-going insurgency since the army and police can't be everywhere.

Efate could have very complex laws on contracts, extensive protections for life and property, widespread and legally protected civil liberty... just no gun control.

The nature of the oligarchy can be anything from a small 'party elite' to a popular 'council of experts' to religious leaders to civic leaders.

Or instead of an enlightened meritocracy, it could be a near anarchy with dysfunctional society, only the rich have access to justice and force is the only protection against force (think of the 'mob planet' from Star Trek)

Half the fun of Traveller is assigning a meaning to those UWP numbers.

 

[daryen]

On Efate, the government of 3 means an oligarchy while the law level of 0 applies to weapons possession. Index law level is an indication of gun control laws, not necessarily ALL laws.

It is more than just gun control.

At the base level, law level is the number which is thrown each day to determine if players are harrassed by local law enforcement.

As a result, it is more than just gun control. It is an overall averaging of the world's collective laws as they apply to player characters. The fact that weapons possession happens to be viewed as the most important is secondary. It is an overall averaging.

 

[leadhead]

The law level is a throw for harrassment from local law enforcement, that's true but the index law level is gun control laws.

One could imagine a society with very libertarian gun and civil liberty laws but perhaps laws on contracts are arcane. Or in the alternative, the laws really are non-existent, with a gang culture predominanting.

 

[Peter Newman]

Efate

Efate is "currently" having a civil war, and large sections of the planet are lawless. (See the TNS entry in JTAS #8, pg 5). The northern continet of Kormoran, is tried to break away from the world government. During, and prior to, the Fifth Frontier war the Ine Givar and the Zhodani sponsored, or at least helped, an insurgency. TAS posted it as an amber zone in 1105 after the TAS facility was gutted in a firefight in the starport.

Think of Efate as being similar to Somalia, or perhaps Vietnam, which may have been the parallel intended by the writers. The pro-imperial prose "This reporter admits to being overwhelmed by this truly impressive show of force [15 brigades], One can only wonder how lond the stubborn but indifferently equipped insurgents on this world can hold out against the ultramodern jugggernaut Army Vice-Marshal Lord Calvan, commander of the Fourty-Third Army, is preparing to unleash on it." sounds similar to any number of pieces written about the US military. If you read "Ine Givar" as VietCong and "Zhodani" as "Communists" it could have been written in the mid 1960's.

In the meantime it's a great place to buy weapons....

 

[Butch Clor]

Hi Scout !

Ho, ho.
The TU is such a wonderful place.








Well, perhaps they suffered from a world wide crisis, or the techlevel decrease happened on a voluntary basis ?
Another eco-planet ? No industry, no nuclear power ?

Perhaps the colony is just new. They are still building an economic and industral base. TL -4 is what they produce locally. They are currently self-sufficient on foodstuffs with some exports going for development. Come back in 30 years, they could quite possibly be TL-10.

Errr, one of the "fully automated starport / ship building" projects of the TU ?
At TL13 this should'nt be a problem. A frightening place.

Pixie is canonized in "The Travellers Digest" # 21. There is an Imperial Naval Shipyard in orbit and an IISS research base on planet. The planet has things that are verrry oold! Also some of them do work... need a bag of holding? Try your very own personal pocket universe!



Shionthy is a Red Zone interdicted Asteroid Belt, that has No Atmo and No Water with Tens of Millions of Inhabitants at TL8. What do they drink and breathe? Because they sure aren't shipping in any trade items like Oxygen and Water when it's interdicted.



A space tech centered TL8 is well enough to get along.
Radioactive waste from the numerous fission plants is stored on some rocks, which are send to the central star from time to time...

This is where the Ancients left their Anti-Matter development site, Also it has become the Spinward M radioactives waste and recycling dump.

Yep, a bit at the edge, but perhaps there is an Imperial Support program for the LS systems running here ...

 

[Hyphen]

Shionthy

Dear Folks -

Michael Barry's take on Shionthy is on my website (see .sig for link).

Go to Tavonni World Views
==> RICE Paper #SM-2306: Shionthy/Regina

Here's a brief exerpt:
"Shionthy is in fact the proper name for the leading Trojan asteroid cluster of Patrio, the outer gas giant. The majority of the system's inhabitants live there, relatively safe from the bombardment of antimatter dust in the Hellbelt, and with a good supply of the carbonaceous and ice asteroids needed to sustain life. Many of the system's inhabitants also live and work on the moons of the system's four gas giants."

Not a bad version of the system, IMNSHO.

 

[Droyne668]

Well, I see I have a lot of work ahead of me justifying all of this for a campaign - or leaving it for players to find as discrepancies after I fix it. Some improbable, but some just plain impossible.

Anyone else come across these problems?

Not here. For the more bizarre worlds (corrosive atmosphere, low tech, etc. or no water and high population) I always figured the population represented a local minor race, perhaps with a research station or something like that.

For some of the more interesting human ones...Creative Political Science 101. Who knows what the heck a bunch of Bilandin and Solomani folks will come up with after a few hundred or thousand years to think up strange ideas under strange stars.

Makes for some humorous games at times, but, hey, gaming is about having fun too.

Best,
Will