Naval Terminology
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
IMTU The Destroyer and Frigate are equivelant size vessels of around 2,500 to 5,000 dt. The principal difference is that the destroyer has a minimum maneuver drive of 4G while a Frigate has a maximum of 3G but carries a heavier armament and armour. Similarly a destroyer escort and corvette are about the same size, about 800 to 1,500 dt, the destroyer escort having a mimumim 4G maneuver and the corvette a maximum 3G. This would result in the Kinunir being classed as a destroyer escort. I use sloops as a clasification for warships of less than 800 dt.
Simon Jester
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gatsby:
Which brings to mind one of my more vigorous complaints about High Guard combat...I KNOW it is primaraily a fleet action game with generalized systems for smmoth play - but one ship's defenses do not protect another ship. There can be no Aegis sheild system in space. But, then, it WAS the 70's....
A possible rule- During first step, any ships can opt not to fire and just protect one other ship with defenses...a single ship may have up to one protector per 5 full Tech Levels (these Tech Levels determined from the average of the possible defenders computer Tech Levels).
Feel free to tear into this ruling's possible failings; it was created as I typed this...
Gats'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Since reading David Weber's Honor Harrington series (many, MANY times)I've worked it out that if two or more allied ships are in close proximity to each other and can communicate with every other ship in the group, they can total the number of weapons of a specific type, be it missiles or fusion guns or sandcasters, and recompute their aggregate Battery Rating. This holds for Offensive and Defensive weaponry equally, with the sole exception of Spinal-Mount weapons (since those require the entire ship be moved).
To resolve die rolls, you'd use the skill levels of the commanding officer, who may not necessarily be the highest skilled ship commander of the group, with a bonus of +1 for every other ship caommander that successfully makes their skill check.
This gives smaller ships at least a chance at taking down even much larger ships
if they've got the numbers for it, but still doesn't make it a sure thing.
Just my 0.02 ImpCreds.
Simon Jester
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-If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.
Which brings to mind one of my more vigorous complaints about High Guard combat...I KNOW it is primaraily a fleet action game with generalized systems for smmoth play - but one ship's defenses do not protect another ship. There can be no Aegis sheild system in space. But, then, it WAS the 70's....
A possible rule- During first step, any ships can opt not to fire and just protect one other ship with defenses...a single ship may have up to one protector per 5 full Tech Levels (these Tech Levels determined from the average of the possible defenders computer Tech Levels).
Feel free to tear into this ruling's possible failings; it was created as I typed this...
Gats'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Since reading David Weber's Honor Harrington series (many, MANY times)I've worked it out that if two or more allied ships are in close proximity to each other and can communicate with every other ship in the group, they can total the number of weapons of a specific type, be it missiles or fusion guns or sandcasters, and recompute their aggregate Battery Rating. This holds for Offensive and Defensive weaponry equally, with the sole exception of Spinal-Mount weapons (since those require the entire ship be moved).
To resolve die rolls, you'd use the skill levels of the commanding officer, who may not necessarily be the highest skilled ship commander of the group, with a bonus of +1 for every other ship caommander that successfully makes their skill check.
This gives smaller ships at least a chance at taking down even much larger ships
if they've got the numbers for it, but still doesn't make it a sure thing.
Just my 0.02 ImpCreds.
Simon Jester
------------------
-If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.
I do the same thing with fighters. If they combine there fire against one taget, I treat them as a battery with a rating equal to whatever the equivelant battery would be.
IE> If the fighter has one laser it's factor one, if 30 fighters combine it's factor-9, same for missiles etc.
IE> If the fighter has one laser it's factor one, if 30 fighters combine it's factor-9, same for missiles etc.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rtartis:
Spinal Mounts as Primary weapons? Maybe in CT Or MT, Once TNE comes along this isn't true any more. Consider this, Like Starfire. If I use an External Ordinance (XO)Rack for a 5o ton missile pod And Each missile LAUNCHER can launch ten missiles per turn I need only place ten launchers in a bay to get 100 misiles per turn, So Ten 100-ton bays at 100 missile each equals 1000 missile time one squadron of what evers equals 8000 internal missiles plus XO Rack with 40 missile each.
Get the point. I'll fire tens of thousands of missiles in one turn.( Providing I have MFD control and not FIM missiles).
CAN you survive? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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"This is a spaceship! Why did you throw that grenade here?"
"I was just trying to get the bad guys."
"Uh guys,..."
BOOOMM!
Spinal Mounts as Primary weapons? Maybe in CT Or MT, Once TNE comes along this isn't true any more. Consider this, Like Starfire. If I use an External Ordinance (XO)Rack for a 5o ton missile pod And Each missile LAUNCHER can launch ten missiles per turn I need only place ten launchers in a bay to get 100 misiles per turn, So Ten 100-ton bays at 100 missile each equals 1000 missile time one squadron of what evers equals 8000 internal missiles plus XO Rack with 40 missile each.
Get the point. I'll fire tens of thousands of missiles in one turn.( Providing I have MFD control and not FIM missiles).
CAN you survive? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
"This is a spaceship! Why did you throw that grenade here?"
"I was just trying to get the bad guys."
"Uh guys,..."
BOOOMM!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
<snip> the rest of the book, however, is riddled with problems... as in the designs are frequently broken.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, that's just keeping with Traveller tradition, isn't it?
I mean going all the way back to Book 2, the standard Type S ship is incapable of flight!
(IIRC, the problem is that it's a Jump-2 ship, but it only has a Model/1bis computer. Despite what the rules say about Model/1bis being able to support Jump 2, it's just not possible. The 1bis has a online capacity of 4, and no offline storage. The minimally required programs (Jump-1, Jump-2, Maneuver, and Navigate) have a combined storage requirement of 5.)
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J.P. Gill
http://www.RPGgazette.com
<snip> the rest of the book, however, is riddled with problems... as in the designs are frequently broken.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, that's just keeping with Traveller tradition, isn't it?
I mean going all the way back to Book 2, the standard Type S ship is incapable of flight!
(IIRC, the problem is that it's a Jump-2 ship, but it only has a Model/1bis computer. Despite what the rules say about Model/1bis being able to support Jump 2, it's just not possible. The 1bis has a online capacity of 4, and no offline storage. The minimally required programs (Jump-1, Jump-2, Maneuver, and Navigate) have a combined storage requirement of 5.)
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J.P. Gill
http://www.RPGgazette.com
I have never dealt with the 1st edition rules, so that may have been the crux of the issue, but the 1bis works fine.
To jump you need to run the Generate program. This may be done independently, and the other programs need not be loaded. Once the Generate has completed, Navigate and Jump need to be loaded.
Therefore, even if all are loaded simultaneously, Generate (1), Navigate (1) and Jump-2 (2) all fit.
It sucks if you are trying to leave a battle, but they do all fit.
To jump you need to run the Generate program. This may be done independently, and the other programs need not be loaded. Once the Generate has completed, Navigate and Jump need to be loaded.
Therefore, even if all are loaded simultaneously, Generate (1), Navigate (1) and Jump-2 (2) all fit.
It sucks if you are trying to leave a battle, but they do all fit.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.P. Gill:
(IIRC, the problem is that it's a Jump-2 ship, but it only has a Model/1bis computer. [...] The 1bis has a online capacity of 4, and no offline storage. The minimally required programs (Jump-1, Jump-2, Maneuver, and Navigate) have a combined storage requirement of 5.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You did mention "IIRC," so no problem
, but I don't believe that's quite how it works. A ship can carry any number of programs outside the computer (where they can only be fed in during the reprogramming phase at the end of each turn). A limited number can be in storage (where they can be swapped in/out of the CPU each phase), and a limited number can be in the CPU running at once. Source: the first four paragraphs of Book 2 2nd ed., page 38. So, a Scout can carry the programs you mention (plus Generate, which is needed for flight plans in uncharted territory) along with any others desired. A maximum of four spaces' worth can run at any given time, but those can be changed out every turn (but not every phase, since a 1/bis has no storage).
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Wendell (IMTU tc++ !tm !tn !t4 !tg ru+ ge++ he)
(IIRC, the problem is that it's a Jump-2 ship, but it only has a Model/1bis computer. [...] The 1bis has a online capacity of 4, and no offline storage. The minimally required programs (Jump-1, Jump-2, Maneuver, and Navigate) have a combined storage requirement of 5.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You did mention "IIRC," so no problem
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Wendell (IMTU tc++ !tm !tn !t4 !tg ru+ ge++ he)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WendellM:
You did mention "IIRC," so no problem
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, well, I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again. I'm only Solimani, after all.
Thanks for the clarification. I must've missed the magical line that makes it all work. I'll have to re-re-read the paragraphs in question when I get home. That's ok, though. I've only been playing it wrong for a couple of decades!
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--
J.P. Gill
http://www.RPGgazette.com
You did mention "IIRC," so no problem
Yeah, well, I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again. I'm only Solimani, after all.
Thanks for the clarification. I must've missed the magical line that makes it all work. I'll have to re-re-read the paragraphs in question when I get home. That's ok, though. I've only been playing it wrong for a couple of decades!
------------------
--
J.P. Gill
http://www.RPGgazette.com
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheDS:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Point taken, I posted a TL 12 cruiser on another page. The design can launch 200 missiles each turn. with MFD's and local control all 200 missiles can be controlled. Assuming HePLar missile are used like direct fire weapons thats a pretty significant broadside. If only one out of ten missiles gets through and hits. AND each missile does one to six hits based on a dice roll, anywhere from twenty to 120 x-ray lasers will hit. A standard 500-kton warhead has an equivalent penetration rating of 1975, far in excess of most ships armor. This assumes you stop 90% of the missiles before they hit.
(Remember this is NOT a missile cruiser, if it was a missile cruiser with thousands of missiles i shudder to think what kind of damage it could do)
Someone want to figure what 200 kkm's would do!
Really though, I figure that 20 hexes is about all the effective range on a spinal mount, with evasive maneuvering, ECM, etc.
When missiles have HEPLAR drives ranges of 30, 40 even 50 hexes makes them very potent weapons.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Point taken, I posted a TL 12 cruiser on another page. The design can launch 200 missiles each turn. with MFD's and local control all 200 missiles can be controlled. Assuming HePLar missile are used like direct fire weapons thats a pretty significant broadside. If only one out of ten missiles gets through and hits. AND each missile does one to six hits based on a dice roll, anywhere from twenty to 120 x-ray lasers will hit. A standard 500-kton warhead has an equivalent penetration rating of 1975, far in excess of most ships armor. This assumes you stop 90% of the missiles before they hit.
(Remember this is NOT a missile cruiser, if it was a missile cruiser with thousands of missiles i shudder to think what kind of damage it could do)
Someone want to figure what 200 kkm's would do!
Really though, I figure that 20 hexes is about all the effective range on a spinal mount, with evasive maneuvering, ECM, etc.
When missiles have HEPLAR drives ranges of 30, 40 even 50 hexes makes them very potent weapons.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.P. Gill:
Well, that's just keeping with Traveller tradition, isn't it?
I mean going all the way back to Book 2, the standard Type S ship is incapable of flight!
(IIRC, the problem is that it's a Jump-2 ship, but it only has a Model/1bis computer. Despite what the rules say about Model/1bis being able to support Jump 2, it's just not possible. The 1bis has a online capacity of 4, and no offline storage. The minimally required programs (Jump-1, Jump-2, Maneuver, and Navigate) have a combined storage requirement of 5.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I always read it as Jump 2, Maneuver, and Navigate., so the required slots were 4, and the price came in under the requisite MCr1 of software. But on careful read (The Traveller Book), I now find I've been doing it wrong for 16+ years. Well, actually, i gave up on the computer programming rules in about 87...
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Well, that's just keeping with Traveller tradition, isn't it?
I mean going all the way back to Book 2, the standard Type S ship is incapable of flight!
(IIRC, the problem is that it's a Jump-2 ship, but it only has a Model/1bis computer. Despite what the rules say about Model/1bis being able to support Jump 2, it's just not possible. The 1bis has a online capacity of 4, and no offline storage. The minimally required programs (Jump-1, Jump-2, Maneuver, and Navigate) have a combined storage requirement of 5.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I always read it as Jump 2, Maneuver, and Navigate., so the required slots were 4, and the price came in under the requisite MCr1 of software. But on careful read (The Traveller Book), I now find I've been doing it wrong for 16+ years. Well, actually, i gave up on the computer programming rules in about 87...
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.P. Gill:
Well, that's just keeping with Traveller tradition, isn't it?
I mean going all the way back to Book 2, the standard Type S ship is incapable of flight!
(IIRC, the problem is that it's a Jump-2 ship, but it only has a Model/1bis computer. Despite what the rules say about Model/1bis being able to support Jump 2, it's just not possible. The 1bis has a online capacity of 4, and no offline storage. The minimally required programs (Jump-1, Jump-2, Maneuver, and Navigate) have a combined storage requirement of 5.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't need the manuever program to jump. Also you don't need to run both jump-1 and jump-2. Therefor the minimally required programs generate (1 space) navigation (1 space) and jump-2 (2 spaces) equal 4 spaces total. Voila this bit of canon is not broken.
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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
Well, that's just keeping with Traveller tradition, isn't it?
I mean going all the way back to Book 2, the standard Type S ship is incapable of flight!
(IIRC, the problem is that it's a Jump-2 ship, but it only has a Model/1bis computer. Despite what the rules say about Model/1bis being able to support Jump 2, it's just not possible. The 1bis has a online capacity of 4, and no offline storage. The minimally required programs (Jump-1, Jump-2, Maneuver, and Navigate) have a combined storage requirement of 5.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't need the manuever program to jump. Also you don't need to run both jump-1 and jump-2. Therefor the minimally required programs generate (1 space) navigation (1 space) and jump-2 (2 spaces) equal 4 spaces total. Voila this bit of canon is not broken.
------------------
I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
May I suggest the term "Monitor" for system defense vessels of cruiser size or larger which are not typically fitted with jump drives?
There were more "monitors" in history than just the American Civil War. I believe the term applied to heavy coast defense vessels up until the eve of WWII.
There were more "monitors" in history than just the American Civil War. I believe the term applied to heavy coast defense vessels up until the eve of WWII.
A monitor as used by the RN, in both WW1 and 2 was a floating artillery platform designed to provide artillery support to army units near the coast. Generally they mounted a pair of battleship sized guns.Were very short and lumbering being designed as a stable firing platform. I believe duty on one was considered a punishment.
For an interesting look at a monitor and the conditions on board one, you should read HMS Saracen by Douglas Reeman
For an interesting look at a monitor and the conditions on board one, you should read HMS Saracen by Douglas Reeman
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>May I suggest the term "Monitor" for system defense vessels of cruiser size or larger which are not typically fitted with jump drives?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
FWIW, that's how they're defined in Imperium (1977 and 2001) and Dark Nebula (1980). They cost the same as a light cruiser but have an attack factor (beam or missile weaponry, not both) between a heavy cruiser's and battleship's.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For an interesting look at a monitor and the conditions on board one, you should read HMS Saracen by Douglas Reeman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the reference. I've thought that it must be interesting on board such a small ship with such big guns.
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Wendell (IMTU tc++ !tm !tn !t4 !tg ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt- au ls+ he)
FWIW, that's how they're defined in Imperium (1977 and 2001) and Dark Nebula (1980). They cost the same as a light cruiser but have an attack factor (beam or missile weaponry, not both) between a heavy cruiser's and battleship's.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For an interesting look at a monitor and the conditions on board one, you should read HMS Saracen by Douglas Reeman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the reference. I've thought that it must be interesting on board such a small ship with such big guns.
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Wendell (IMTU tc++ !tm !tn !t4 !tg ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt- au ls+ he)
