Need help with personal combat in T5 - brawling, blade and personal weapons

[OjnoTheRed]

I am preparing for Escape from Pysadi in The Traveller Adventure, which I am doing in T5 as a bit of a get-to-know the system for me (see my blog on progress so far; time has been a huge constraint this year but we are getting on with it tomorrow my time).

A key encounter is the party being attacked by a beast, something that can badly wound one of the party but not result in an outright kill. I'm thinking something the size of a tiger or lion that the party can fend off. I'll control this by building rather than rolling the creature and putting it into an encounter table, probably built with Rob's great app.

I need to check I'm reading the rules right, and how to plug a couple of gaps.

The encounter range is the creature's size, probably giving the party a chance to react for one round or so while the creature bounds up to whoever it wants to attack.

Except with Pysadi having a law level of 7 (taking the older Spinward Marches stats for 1105), they'll have no guns. Just fists, probably blades. The animal concerned will have a natural weapon and their strength generated from the creation process.

I get the general structure of combat as an abstracted system of "minutes" that result in net outcomes rather than tracking all movement, ammunition etc. I'm fine with that so long as it is fun and builds tension. But I need help.

For resolving a brawl round by round, we get this from p. 158 rulebook:
To resolve one round of a brawl.
Difficult (3D) < Str + Unarmed
Opposed (up to 6). Resolves one round of the brawl Highest Roll (if unsuccessful) is the Loser (= 3D Hits)

We also get this from p. 135 of the rulebook:
A more extended resolution of a brawl determines the loser of a specific round. The highest result (provided that result is unsuccessful) is the loser, receives 2D in damage, and is eliminated from the brawl. If no one is unsuccessful, repeat the task.
To resolve one round of a brawl.
Difficult (3D) < Str + Brawling
Opposed (up to 6). Resolves one round of the brawl.


Although the second one needs "Unarmed" knowledge instead of "Brawling", the damage makes more sense for each round of 2D damage.

OK so far; the part will oppose the beast and anyone in unarmed range (reading or touching) can participate; others will have to move in.

It would seem that Str of the Beast is relevant as generated from the creation process, and we'll call this the total C+S for the Beast for this task. But what of damage?

Page 260 of the rulebook says that natural weapons all do damage =C1.
From Page 231, it would seem that the "=C1" should be interpreted as "roll the number of dice that you rolled for that characters strength" - i.e. generally 2D for damage, or whatever you got for the Beast's strength (or the Sophont as appropriate).

This makes natural weapons only distinct from each other in the type of damage, and some have two damage types. But cuts, blows and bullets must all penetrate "Armor" (i.e. not EMCage, etc.) so the difference only comes down to "Cuts" on page 225 doing "Hits to C1 C2 C3" per turn - presumably signifying a significant injury with a blade that is bleeding.

That leaves us with blades and polearms. For blades and polearms, the "to win" task has the relevant knowledge of Blades replacing Unarmed and some range benefits (taken from the relevant weapon stats on page 260).

The Beast has Strength as the one characteristic against which we apply hits.

So combat becomes several rounds of rolling dice to determine the loser of the fight among those in range and then applying damage as determined by the weapons used by the victorious side.

But what of attacks of different types in a round? Let's say our PCs attack the beast, one with a knife, the other with fists? Both attacks succeed and the beasts fails - do the PCs both get to roll damage against the Beast?

My broad interpretation is going to be this: In a many-vs-many fight, use the brawl rules round by round as indicated; this reflects the chaos of attacking and defending. The hits applied are generally cuts or blows and which is which can be determined by situation (e.g. all thugs fighting with PCs armed with knives) or randomly (e.g. both PCs strike, one with fists one with knife, roll 50/50 to see which damage type is applied). In a many-vs-one fight (e.g. PCs vs. one Beast), all successful PC attacks strike if the Beast is unsuccessful and hence the loser that round.

First blood still applies, so the initial attack could disable someone.

Am I on the right track? This is my attempt at assembling a procedure from the various pages in the book, and I'd love to have corrections or feedback.

 

[Supplement Four]

Brawling combat in T5 (I'm still using the CT term for "melee combat") is really up to the Ref. There are no hard and strict rules presented for that type of combat presented in the work (and this will be changed once the new combat system is released).

The book gives you three options, and none of them are perfect or particularly detailed.

The first thing you can do is use the Fighting Task from the Combat chapter, but what you will find, because the difficulty of that task is based on range, is that it results in automatic hits most of the time.

My suggestion is to use this system (the one presented in the Combat Chapter) because it is the most detailed (and most explained). I'd change the difficulty, though, to something other than Range. It has been suggested that a standard 3D be used for Personal Combat Difficulty.

But, as Ref, you might want to figure something else out. Off the top of my head, maybe something like 3D, but also using the opponent's Skill as a penalty modifier. 3D < Skill + Char - Opponent's Skill.

Just a thought.





The other two methods in the book are given in the description of the Fighting Task, as you note above. I really don't like either of those systems at all, and that's not only because either method is a lot different from the method used for Gun Combat.



My advice: Pick or devise something that you think works best and use it. Don't try to be "by the book" on this one, because the text is contradictory (providing three ways to make an attack) and very scarce on detail and intent.

 

[Supplement Four]

BTW, before I started working on the new combat system, I posted a suggested fix for T5 Blade and Brawling Combat.

Click Here To See That Thread.

You can use what I suggest, or read the thread to see some of the suggestions a few others posted. Use that as is, or use it as a starting point for your own system.





Another idea is to base your Blade/Brawling System on Opposed throws, using the T5 Task Opposed Throw as your starting point.

 

[Supplement Four]

Except with Pysadi having a law level of 7 (taking the older Spinward Marches stats for 1105), they'll have no guns.

Considering Pysadi's tech level and atmo, too, I don't see too much population outside the cities. How long until face-filter masks will no longer do the job? If the PCs go deep into the wilderness (say...while mining), then they're probably on their own. And, local transport away from the cities is probably beast and carriage.

This makes natural weapons only distinct from each other in the type of damage, and some have two damage types. But cuts, blows and bullets must all penetrate "Armor" (i.e. not EMCage, etc.) so the difference only comes down to "Cuts" on page 225 doing "Hits to C1 C2 C3" per turn - presumably signifying a significant injury with a blade that is bleeding.

I've been vehemently fighting this rule, by the way, as one of the five working on the new combat system. My argument is that a Traveller character doesn't have a lot of hit points to begin with. With this rule, a dagger or sword will do a lot more damage than a gunshot wound.

Why can we bleed out from a cut but not from a gunshot wound? Makes no sense to me, and it makes the blade weapons the most feared in the game.

I suggest ignoring the continuous damage aspect of the rule.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Thanks, SupplementFour! Armed with those ideas, I'm tending towards the following, a hodge-podge of the rulebook and what you've put there and my own ideas.

A brawl is any fighting with natural or blade weapons at Range=R or Range=T or Range=1 (with a weapon that has this range) and at least one participant chooses these weapons. No-one outside a brawl at Range=R or Range=T may target participants with shooting for fear of hitting their own side.

Only Pistols are allowed as firearms as a brawling weapon. Anyone wielding a Pistol must still make a successful "natural weapons" roll (below) and then a separate attack using the pistol. Other long weapons may be used as a club.

All participants the task relevant to them:

To win a round of brawling combat with natural weapons:
Average (2D) < Str + Fighting + Unarmed (opposed)
Note: Beasts using natural weapons treat Unarmed as optional but absent as a skill.

To win a round of brawling combat with blade weapons:
Average (2D) < Str + Fighting + Blades (opposed)

The loser of a round is the highest unsuccessful roll. All successful attacks from the opposing side may now apply penetration and damage depending on weapon type from the table on page 260 (bearing mind mind that =C1 means roll the number of dice you rolled for strength). If all participants are successful, the round was spent in a desperate struggle of attacking, dodging and parrying. If all participants are unsuccessful, then blows went wide and no-one was really threatened.

When an NPC has accumulated 10 points in damage, they are out of action. When a PC has one characteristic reduced to zero, they are unconscious.

Note that due to the TIH! rule, many participants will be rolling +1D difficulty.

A person with C+S=12 (e.g. Str=9, Fighting-1, Unarmed-2) will have certain success. With a modicum of skill and above average strength will certainly land a blow in combat; the only thing preventing them is the other person parrying the blow or dodging. Thus some brawls will result in several rounds of struggle to injure the opponent without success.

Lastly, we re-introduce the Classic Traveller rule that you are limited to a number of rounds in brawling by Endurance (this means Vigor or Stamina does worse or better in brawling). After this you make weakened blows until you rest for at least 30 minutes. A weakened blow is an accumulating Mod of -1 per round in a brawl until you rest: a Mod of -1 for the first, a Mod of -2 for the second, -3 for the third and so on. Thus, two duelling characters with C+S=12 will succumb to tiredness after a time.

This system is simple and consistent with existing rules and tables. But there will be some niggles.

More detail could be added in future supplements, e.g. the effect of terrain on brawling tactically (e.g. swordsmen pushing up or down stairs, pushing opponents of cliff faces etc), the use of improvised weapons (pool cues!), martial arts and exotic weapons, grappling attacks, etc.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Considering Pysadi's tech level and atmo, too, I don't see too much population outside the cities. How long until face-filter masks will no longer do the job? If the PCs go deep into the wilderness (say...while mining), then they're probably on their own. And, local transport away from the cities is probably beast and carriage.

Yes! That's exactly the scenario. Steam trains get you around the continent, but roads are little more than dirt tracks and horse-and-cart is the only form of transport apart from the trains. For religious reasons petrol vehicles are banned (they are an affront to "Mother Pysadi"). I'm visualising the local religion as an inconsistently applied Amish community: many machines are banned but not all and life is kept deliberately simple. This means the party's expedition will need to be well planned including carrying medical supplies for emergencies, and extraction will be ... interesting .

I've been vehemently fighting this rule, by the way, as one of the five working on the new combat system. My argument is that a Traveller character doesn't have a lot of hit points to begin with. With this rule, a dagger or sword will do a lot more damage than a gunshot wound.

Why can we bleed out from a cut but not from a gunshot wound? Makes no sense to me, and it makes the blade weapons the most feared in the game.

I suggest ignoring the continuous damage aspect of the rule.

Bleeding out from a gunshot wound was exactly my question as well; it seems to be some sort of general rule is needed about untended wounded, especially those with 2 characteristics reduced to zero. I thought the healing / medical rules out of MegaTraveller, while harsh, were realistic.

Blade weapons being the most feared in the game would make combat something akin to the 40k Assault Phase: sure your numbers might be thinned down by shooting, but those chain swords will cut you down to nothing in seconds!

I think I'll use your suggestion for now; basically, no significant difference between blows and cuts.

 

[David Johansen]

Yeah, also I'm pretty sure the Blade Maker weapons with Pen = Str are in points not dice. Because when a big knife wielded by an ordinary man has better penetration than a plasma gun it's time to go back to GURPS.

I love T5 for its potential but I'm sure getting tired of waiting for combat clarifications. Also, I think a committee was pretty much a guarantee the project would stall at the gates. Design by committee sucks. What we needed first was a page of clarifications and functional rulings on a standardized FAQ. A full rewrite to integrate those could follow at leisure. What we've gotten is a year and a half wait during which the game has been non-functional as written.

This is not how you publish and market a successful rpg.

 

[Supplement Four]

I love T5 for its potential but I'm sure getting tired of waiting for combat clarifications. Also, I think a committee was pretty much a guarantee the project would stall at the gates. Design by committee sucks.

Although it is taking a lot of time, your impression is not quite right. We're not designing by committee. It's more like Captain Kirk looking to his Department Heads for input, then Kirk makes his decision based on that input.

In this case, Marc is Kirk, of course.

We all send in our thoughts. Don collates them and presents them to Marc. Marc has final say.

And, Marc creates, too. He's not just waiting for our input. He sends new ideas to us and asks us what we think.

But, it's not a committee looking for a majority vote. It's one decision maker gathering input and a making his own decisions that may or may not jive with the input and ideas that we suggested.

Marc is the final decision maker. He's the professor. We're the TA's.

What we needed first was a page of clarifications and functional rulings on a standardized FAQ.

At first glance, I would agree. But, I understand why Marc hasn't done this--because anything he would write might and probably will become moot with the combat re-write.

For example, I can tell you right now that STAMP is a thing of the past. Thus, if Marc had clarified part of STAMP, then he'd be going back on himself when releasing the Combat Update (which is really a Combat Re-Write).

 

[Supplement Four]

Thanks, SupplementFour! Armed with those ideas, I'm tending towards the following, a hodge-podge of the rulebook and what you've put there and my own ideas.

No problem. Glad to help. :coffeesip:

Only Pistols are allowed as firearms as a brawling weapon. Anyone wielding a Pistol must still make a successful "natural weapons" roll (below) and then a separate attack using the pistol. Other long weapons may be used as a club.

Why wouldn't you just use the Fire Combat task for Pistols? Or, are you talking about pistol whipping and not actually firing the pistol?

Lastly, we re-introduce the Classic Traveller rule that you are limited to a number of rounds in brawling by Endurance (this means Vigor or Stamina does worse or better in brawling).

I've always like the thought of that rule in CT, but I hate bookkeeping. It's especially hard on the Ref when he's got several NPCs to run in something like a bar fight. Which NPC has met his END limit? What about strokes that do not count against the END limit? What about characters who fight three rounds against a foe, defeat him, then, two rounds later, in the same fight, go up against another foe?

I think it's too much trouble to track. Good idea, but the gain isn't worth the pain, so to speak. I can see why the idea was dropped in MegaTraveller.

And, IIRC, MT uses a slightly different rule??? I can't remember. I just remember the Blow modifier with some weapons.

 

[aramis]

There is another tier for some elements. Marc will fire off to select groups a draft for comment. We then beat to death the ways this affects the OTU and the "This needs more text here here and here"...

Don, Greg, & Robject have been part of all three such discussions I've been included in.

 

[Supplement Four]

There is another tier for some elements. Marc will fire off to select groups a draft for comment. We then beat to death the ways this affects the OTU and the "This needs more text here here and here"...

Don, Greg, & Robject have been part of all three such discussions I've been included in.

The last time I spoke to Rob about it, he said that he wasn't included in the combat update at all.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Why wouldn't you just use the Fire Combat task for Pistols? Or, are you talking about pistol whipping and not actually firing the pistol?

Now I'm producing errata / clarification! :rofl: Hard stuff, writing unambiguous rules.

What I was meaning to say is that characters in a brawl are basically prevented from firing long-arms. But they can fire off a pistol; but before they can, they still participate in the joint opposed brawl task, and must have success, and THEN they resolve firing the shot. This represents a desperate struggle to bring a gun to bear when someone is wrestling with you. That's just a off-the-cuff idea - it won't really bear on the situation I'm Refereeing (today! - huzzah!).

I've always like the thought of that rule in CT, but I hate bookkeeping. It's especially hard on the Ref when he's got several NPCs to run in something like a bar fight. Which NPC has met his END limit? What about strokes that do not count against the END limit? What about characters who fight three rounds against a foe, defeat him, then, two rounds later, in the same fight, go up against another foe?

I think it's too much trouble to track. Good idea, but the gain isn't worth the pain, so to speak. I can see why the idea was dropped in MegaTraveller.

And, IIRC, MT uses a slightly different rule??? I can't remember. I just remember the Blow modifier with some weapons.

I agree that book-keeping is an important consideration here. What I'm thinking of doing is giving each player a pile of glass beads and handing one in for each round in a brawl; after they are gone, I start handing them back. For Beasts I'm thinking this rule doesn't apply in practice; firstly if the Beast is too small and in combat the players are likely to put it out of action before any limit is met; and if the beast is large a lot of the damage is due simply to the beast's size rather than effort put into each blow. For NPCs I am reasoning as a small beast; an NPC is likely to be put out of action before an endurance limit is reached. This rule really only helps us when we have two antagonists who are certain of success (or success is highly likely) round to round but limiting combat. This is only likely to happen with a skilled antagonist for whom you have rolled up a full set of characteristics and skills. That is to say, I am visualising only needing to administer this rule in very few circumstances.

I am ditching the idea of "deliberate weakened blows" (strokes that do not count against the END limit) - in practice in a fight, you fully commit yourself round to round and it's exhausting. The idea here is that the task represents one combat round of punching, kicking, wrestling and otherwise trying to injure your opponent and avoid being injured.

And lastly, yes, a character that goes three rounds against one opponent and then gets involved immediately in another brawl is at reduced endurance. For typical endurance at 7 for a human, with a sword you could dispatch one opponent in three rounds and then when you move onto the next opponent you are already tired.