Need UWP excuses

[jwdh71]

From The Traveller's Handbook, pg. 375:
"Very Thin: The world has a very thin standard oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere of 0.1 to 0.49 atmospheres. Survival requires the use of compressors to ensure an adequate supply of oxygen can be drawn from the atmosphere."

If the atmosphere is at the higher range (0.40 to 0.49), and the proportion of oxygen is higher than it is on earth, the atmosphere could be breathable. The taint could easily be industrial pollutants, or some biological problem, like a particularly virulant pollen or spore.

All an exotic atmosphere means is that the it isn't breathable, not that it's toxic. It could be an odd mix of gasses, or simply missing oxygen except as a trace gas.

I do agree with the above, the "garden worlds" as soon to be completed teraforming projects. It makes for some very intresting adventure ideas.

 

[Malenfant]

Exotic atmospheres don't contain oxygen. Apparently they don't require protective suits.

Though apparently Saturn's moon Titan (the one with the N2 and CH4 atmosphere) is classed as "exotic" despite the fact that you'd freeze solid in a few seconds if you were to walk around there without a protective suit.

So technically it should be classed as a "Corrosive" atmosphere (which DO require protective suits) despite the fact that there's nothing actually 'corrosive' in its atmosphere.

The atmosphere definitions in Traveller are somewhat lacking in realism when you look at them closely.

 

[Malenfant]

Another thing to ponder: Why would a high population, high technology world generate so much pollution as to totally destroy its environment? Fusion power doesn't have nasty side-effects like the production of massive amounts of greenhouse gas that industrial age power sources like oil and coal have. And would a higher tech society really be so irresponsible as to wantonly pollute a habitable world with other wastes that they can easily deal with?

 

[jwdh71]

Simple, as humans, they simply lack the will to prevent it from happening unitl it's too late. All too possible considering how nonsensical people can be.

As far as the atmosphere of Titan, yes it's Exotic, but the atmosphere classification doesn't take into account the other variables, like temperature. So while the atmosphere itself doesn't require protection, the temperature it's at does. More Traveller weirdness...

 

[Malenfant]

Re: Industrial taint. I don't buy it. If they were that stupid, they'd have destroyed their environment at TL 7 and 8, and if they survived that then they would have learnt their lesson.

re: Exotic atmopsheres: Maybe, but the atmosphere is the sole indication of the general environment on the UWP. Omitting the fact that protective suits are required on Titan would be incredibly misleading and dangerous.

 

[Whipsnade]

Morte explained:

"Missah Whipsnade, I fear your idea cannot be applied as written. The Old Worlds history since their founding in -2210 is covered in some depth in the Gateway book (it's really good about history, unlike UWPs)."


Mr. Morte,

Ooops! Not having the Gateway book I didn't realize that there already was a history in place. I am certain it is a much better history than my calamity-filled nonsense too. Do yourself and favor and toss my idea in the nearest dustbin!

I've been watching my Heroes off and on all day (I own many of the Shorts on DVD) and Shemp (my personal favorite) as not made an appearance yet. He and I do share a remarkable resemblence, although Shemp has more luck with women.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

Malenfant wrote:

"Another thing to ponder: Why would a high population, high technology world generate so much pollution as to totally destroy its environment?"

Dr. Thomas,

Who said the worlds were habitable in the first place? All we suggested is that the colonists made them worse, no one ever suggested they were Elysium I, II, and III to begin with. They just needed to be marginally better than the worlds that would be terraformed later.

"And would a higher tech society really be so irresponsible as to wantonly pollute a habitable world with other wastes that they can easily deal with?"

There's habitable and then there's habitable. If the local enviroment was nasty to begin with, why bother preventing evironmental damage at all? It really doesn't matter to people already living under domes and wearing P-suits.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Malenfant]

There's habitable and then there's habitable. If the local enviroment was nasty to begin with, why bother preventing evironmental damage at all? It really doesn't matter to people already living under domes and wearing P-suits.

Because even if a world is uninhabitable, if it has an atmosphere there's still potential to cause massive imbalances and climate change through pollution that would make life even more difficult for you.

You can get away with doing what you want on a vacuum world since there's no long term consequences that'll come up bite you on the behind after they've built up over time, but on a world with an atmosphere you'd be wise to moderate your pollution unless you want to put up with sudden temperature swings and violent weather conditions in the future that would render the place even MORE uninhabitable than it already is.

It's interesting that there seems to be a total disregard for environmental protection in Traveller. If the world was habitable save for the fact that everything was based on amino acids with opposite chirality and therefore unprocessable/poisonous to humans, does that somehow grant a carte blanche for the colonists to utterly destroy the planet's environment and its existing ecosystem?

I'd like to think that in the future people have evolved sufficiently in environmental management that they can avoid the utter disasters of the mid-late 20th century.

 

[Whipsnade]

Malenfant wrote:

"I'd like to think that in the future people have evolved sufficiently in environmental management that they can avoid the utter disasters of the mid-late 20th century."


Dr. Thomas,

While your at it, you can go ahead and believe that pixes make the flowers grow too.

Humans are humans and the patina of civilization is extremely thin. Three meals, that's all it take, missing three meals. Then the wheels come off. Sometimes it even happens when we're fed. May I point to the lampshades made of human skin at Auschwitz or the more recent nastiness in Fallujah?

This is a bedrock assumption of Traveller; folks are folks even in the 57th Century and despite all their technology.

If you require a setting in which humans have 'evolved', GURPS: Transhuman Space awaits and I already know it's assumptions meet your requirements. Of course, in that setting you'll be one of the lucky few whose consciousness is uploaded into an ever-lasting cybershell so that you may gambol about the moons of Saturn. You definitely won't be that purpose-built bioroid whore slaving away under anyone with $10 in a back street crib in Lagos.

Every setting has it's warts.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Malenfant]

So... you really think in what, 3,000 years of future societal evolution, people don't change? The patina of civilisation is arguably extremely thin now, yes. But really, if it's all the same in 3,000 years then what's the bloody point? We may as well kill ourselves now and do the universe a favour in that case.

Environmental management is also an entirely different beast to acting like uncivilised savages. I certainly don't think that's a "bedrock assumption" of Traveller at all. Not. Bloody. Remotely. If it was, there's no way Terrans would have lived long have even made it to the stars, and there's certainly no way the Vilani could have had their nice stable empire that lasts thousands of years if they gave into those "instincts".

If you want to play hopeless dystopia, go play Cyberpunk or SLA industries. But that sure ain't any version of Traveller that I know - even though it has plenty of dark spots, it's nowhere near as bleak a rendition of the human condition as you imply.

And right now I'm one of those "lucky few" you seem to disdain so much. So are you. So's everyone here. We're not the ones dying in a desert with nothing to eat and no hope for the future, after all. Or slaving away in a sweat shop in atrocius conditions for a pittance of a wage to make the clothes that we wear. I wonder, are you even remotely as bitter about your life today as you would be about my imaginary life in TS? Do you give as much thought to the human beings who suffer in the developing and third worlds as you do to the bioroids in the sweatshops in TS, so that we may have what we take for granted or that we can maintain the status quo that keeps us on top of the pack? What have you done to make their lives better, if anything? If nothing, then get off that damn high horse of yours.

I'll admit it, I'm a shameless sucker for First World living, and I'm pretty damn sure there's at least a billion people who'd think the same. How pathetic are we to panic when the power goes out for a day or two in our nice cushy cities, when there are billions of people across the world who don't even have power at all? But I don't see anything I can do to change how the world works today, because right now the system is stacked against people who want that kind of change. I think the whole of western civilisation has to collapse before anything better comes out of it. But even though I can't change it, it doesn't stop me wishing that it was built on something other than the bones of the rest of the planet.

Right now, it's the way of the world. But that doesn't mean it has to or will stay that way forever. I hope it changes, I really do. I have to hope that it changes. But if you begrudge the dreams of those people who do hope that things get at least a little bit better in the future - even if that future is entirely fictional - then you must be a very bitter, twisted creature indeed.

And maybe I'm over-reacting here, but I very much resent it when people imply I'm a callous git.

 

[mad13142000]

They are Hi-Pop, Hi-Tech worlds?
Who cares what the atmosphere is - They are all living in arcologies...
As for Lo-pop, terrestrial worlds...lots of them in the 3I - Noble retreats, Imperial parks and gardens, Agricultural combine worlds...I've got one in Core that I entered last week that is owned by the Imperial Marines - they use it for wilderness training...
If you are looking for reasons to justify some of the wierdo UWPs from canon...I gots lots of ideas...Of course I would vote to just change them...

-MADDog

 

[Morte]

* gurgle *

jwdh71: I think "Just because the rules say you can't breathe types 2 or A without aid doesn't mean you can't breath them without aid" might play badly with the editor.

I'd probably have more luck with "It's a cataloguing error by the IISS, who are more than a sector away after all." That's what I'd do IMTU.

MADDog: Yep, that's what I'd do if I pitched it, that's the option I settled on at the top of page 2. The atmospheres on the hi-pops aren't breathable, but the people there just don't care 'coz they ain't like us. And with 3200 years of continuous high-tech history, they don't have to.

I'm now struggling with why the Old Worlds Navy Squash Club (Reserves) didn't smack the Kafoe down by 910.

 

[mike wightman]

Morte wondered:

I'm now struggling with why the Old Worlds Navy Squash Club (Reserves) didn't smack the Kafoe down by 910.

Having a hostile alien race a few parsecs away gives the navy an excuse to maintain its fleet and to get funding/drive research forward. No threat at all would mean less money for the military.
At least, that's what's been happening in the "west" since the end of the cold war

 

[Morte]

This is very rough "power chart" I knocked up for Gateway 993, it just computes population * TL^2 as a rough measure of economic/military potential.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Code Description Systems Power
Xx Independent 691 1.01E+08
Ix Imperial (Various) 356 7.03E+07
Ow Old Worlds 18 2.01E+07
GS Grand Duchy of Stoner 9 1.92E+07
Fm Farreach Margravate 22 1.53E+07
Sy Syzlin Republic 16 8.94E+06
Oy Oytrip of Tubroyllufotyusk 1 3.92E+06
Pl Plavian League 20 2.74E+06
Ga Galian Federation 30 2.73E+06
Ho Hochiken People's Assembly 22 2.57E+06
GT Glimmerdrift Trade 14 2.32E+06
Consortium
MC Mercantile Concord 34 1.70E+06
IC Imperial Client State 26 1.31E+06
Ak Akeena Union 9 7.27E+05
Vi Viyard Concourse 24 6.99E+05
Me Megusard Corporate 7 6.95E+05
Tr Trindel Confederacy 12 6.88E+05
Kc K'Kree Client 12 4.60E+05
KC Katowice Conquest 12 4.60E+05
Rm Raidermarch 11 1.90E+05
Hc Hiver client 7 1.70E+05
KL Khuur League 10 1.61E+05
Mi Mische Conglomerate 7 1.43E+05
L9 Loyal Nineworld Republic 17 1.37E+05
Sw Swanfei Free Worlds 9 1.24E+05
Go Greater Osaka 3 1.15E+05
KW Karhyri Worlds 6 8.82E+04
Re Renkard Union 11 7.31E+04
Rh The Reach 5 4.92E+04
FH Federation of Heren 7 3.40E+04
Mk Maskai Empire 4 1.30E+04
Oe Empire of Olduvai 2 8.70E+03
Fr Federate Republic 11 8.04E+03
FA Free and Holy Federation 6 6.00E+03
of Amil
KD Kafoe Dominate 2 1.38E+03
CK Corporate Republic of Kobe 2 1.20E+03
LT Lords of Thunder 1 5.67E+02
BK Beree Kanval 1 4.48E+01</pre>[/QUOTE]Only a 1,680:1 difference...

 

[mike wightman]

But they do have a powerful force of large vessels, possibly non-jump capable, which have defeated a couple of Old Worlds expeditionary forces using weapons of unusual and unknown design.
Hmmm...

 

[Morte]

For 87 years. And they're raiders too, which does not spell "ignored as unimportant". And they're only a couple of parsecs away.

People halfway between 3I and OW turn to the OW rather than 3I for military assistance (and warship sales). They have a tradition of regional policing and 500 years of hot war experience against the Katowice Conquest. In my stingiest navy estimates, the J4 meson guns of the Naval Strategic Fleet are in triple figures (and it plays second fiddle to System Defense Command and the Peacekeeping Fleet). These guys could conceivably defend their core systems against the 2000 Worlds. The scheduled "*-boat" message network could knock over a few pocket empires if you armed the ships (they actually have no hardpoints)...

Anyway, if I make the Kafoe "bay-sized particle beam weapons of unusual design" so powerful that they can stand off the OW for decades, they would have conquered a good part of a subsector to spinward by now. Hey, maybe they're made of some handwavium that stops jump fields forming! No, I have little enough pride, but I will not sink that low.

Back when this was an IMTU idea (he says plaintively), I was going to make the Kafoe presence in Crucis Margin 87 days old rather than 87 years. The three destroyers sent to check out these odd new raiders 18 days ago were lost with all hands and only a "wrecker" (reconnaissance) ship got home. It's all current, shocking, urgent, and dramatic and it's worse still it's happened just as the OW were about to *SPOILER* *SPOILER* *SPOILER*.

[It's shocking what happens when you look closely at hi-pops. It finally sinks in that 10 instead of 8 actually means "100 times as much", not "25% more". 3 of the book's 41 pop 10 worlds are in the OW, all of them high tech.]

 

[Whipsnade]

Malenfant wrote:

"So... you really think in what, 3,000 years of future societal evolution, people don't change?"


Dr. Thomas,

Why should we change in the next 3000 years? We haven't changed appreciably in the last 3000 years.

"And right now I'm one of those "lucky few" you seem to disdain so much. So are you. So's everyone here."

There is a difference; I've been there and you haven't. I've seen the peoples and places you only view by satellite TV from the comfort of your sanitary living room. I've seen it and smelled it. It's a reality for me and a theory for you. I've been there and you haven't.

There is another difference too; I do something about it every day and you, by your own admission, have done nothing.

"Or slaving away in a sweat shop in atrocius conditions for a pittance of a wage to make the clothes that we wear."

Clothes that you still buy, fruit you still eat, and coffee you still drink, right?

"Do you give as much thought to the human beings who suffer in the developing and third worlds as you do to the bioroids in the sweatshops in TS, so that we may have what we take for granted or that we can maintain the status quo that keeps us on top of the pack?"

The difference is that I do give thought to them and you like to think that you give thought to them.

"What have you done to make their lives better, if anything? If nothing, then get off that damn high horse of yours."

It's more like a broken down nag and I've done far more than you ever will. You like to pretend you care, it makes you feel good, but you never transmute those thoughts into the smallest of actions. Let me ask; where'd you get your coffee from this morning? There's a change you can make, a change that will make a difference for some folks. Of course, that cup may cost you a bit more.

"But I don't see anything I can do to change how the world works today, because right now the system is stacked against people who want that kind of change."

Ahh, the usual cop-out of the dilettante. I can't change it ALL so I won't even try and change a small part of it. Nothing but lip service as you reap the benefits of the system you decry.

"I think the whole of western civilisation has to collapse before anything better comes out of it."

Ooh, there's a nice thought. Let's reduce everyone to the same wretched level and hopefully things will get better.

"I hope it changes, I really do. I have to hope that it changes."

Spit in one hand and hope in another. See which fills up first.

"... then you must be a very bitter, twisted creature indeed."

Sadly no, I'm simply an honest one. Honest with myself and honest about others.

"And maybe I'm over-reacting here, but I very much resent it when people imply I'm a callous git."

If I merely implied that, let me correct myself. You are a callous git. In fact, you're worse than a callous git. A callous git doesn't know enough to care. You do know enough because and only pretend to care. You whine and mewl over the 'injustices' that let you enjoy your cushy life, you believe that those injustices must be addressed, and yet you freely say that you cannot change anything. You're worse than a callous git, you're a hypocritical git.

You are a luxury. Your life style, your education, your career, all of it. Everything about you relies on the sweat from the brows of others. You OWE them. You say you cannot do anything and you never try. Bullshit, Doctor. You OWE them to try. Will you pay a pittance more for your morning cup of coffee? Will you pay a few more dollars for a shirt that didn't come from a sweatshop? You can make those choices NOW, but have you?

When the system collapses how many planetary scientists do you think we'll need? You are a nothing but a luxury, a drone, a lily of the field. And you haven't even the courage to admit that to yourself. Do something, do anything, as every little bit helps. And, until you finally do something, quit mewling and pretending to care.

Do yourself a favor. Google Ursula K. LeGuin and the short story 'Those Who Walk Away From Omelas'. Then sit down and think. Then get up and do something other than whine.


William R. Cameron, aka Larsen

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So... you really think in what, 3,000 years of future societal evolution, people don't change? The patina of civilisation is arguably extremely thin now, yes. But really, if it's all the same in 3,000 years then what's the bloody point? We may as well kill ourselves now and do the universe a favour in that case.

the fundamentals of human civilization and cultrue have not changed much in 5000 years of recorded history... all we've changed is how much damage a single person or small group can do.

Environmental management is also an entirely different beast to acting like uncivilised savages. I certainly don't think that's a "bedrock assumption" of Traveller at all. Not. Bloody. Remotely. If it was, there's no way Terrans would have lived long have even made it to the stars, and there's certainly no way the Vilani could have had their nice stable empire that lasts thousands of years if they gave into those "instincts".

Unlike us, they had 300,000 years of an environment where mutual conflict could result in unintentional genocide, and you couldn't rest on a serious wound to be fatal, as the vilani are immune to most local diseases... canonically, at least. Contact with Terrans, not jsut the plage of Dingr, reshaped the 1I to something that lasted a few hundred years of terran misrule.

And maybe I'm over-reacting here, but I very much resent it when people imply I'm a callous git.

I think you are overreacting, and putting down those of us who run the 3I as a dystopia (There ARE plenty of dystopian groups in canon. Psyadi. wherever Exit Visa was set. Mithril.

Perhaps there will be major changes; Me, I can't see most of them as positive. And the positive ones are liekly to not survive, as they won't run far enough.

 

[Morte]

Random Static.

 

[Morte]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Code Description Systems Power
Pl Plavian League 20 2.74E+06
Ga Galian Federation 30 2.73E+06
Ho Hochiken People's Assembly 22 2.57E+06
Ak Akeena Union 9 7.27E+05
Sw Swanfei Free Worlds 9 1.24E+05</pre>[/QUOTE]Now that's an intriguing corner of space, up between the rift and the K'Kree. Somebody could have fun, there.