Needed

[scrabble]

So should Mongoose write their own canon or should they respect what has gone before?

All I'm saying is that they don't need to slavishly respect canon. Obviously they should stay within the same broad framework though.

I do not believe that there is any such thing as a single "OTU". As I said, all the different versions of Traveller are their own internally consistent OTUs because of the way they implement technologies and so on. The setting is the only thing they have in common with eachother, but even then there are some small differences between them.

I do not think that Mongoose should directly contradict other canon without good reason, but at the same time if they do then I will not be too upset about it. Whatever Mongoose says will apply to Mongoose Traveller, and whatever (for example) Classic Traveller says will apply to Classic Traveller. Reconciling them is too much of a headache to be fun.

 

[rancke]

Being an "old faithful Traveller fan" gives no authority over publishers.

I don't think anyone has ever said it did. I certainly haven't, and I don't recall Bill doing it either. We have expressed our opinions, nothing more.

No, it is not. You are absolutely, demonstrably, and objectively wrong to think that you have the authority to tell any publisher what they can and cannot do.

I don't think anyone has ever said he did. I certainly haven't, and I don't recall Bill doing it either. We have expressed our opinions, nothing more. You may have been confused by the fact that the opinions we'v expressed includes what we think they ought to do. Not the same thing at all.

Publishers have access to the same sources that everyone else does. Everyone else just needs to have faith that when the publishers submit their material to Marc Miller then he will judge it accordingly and will allow it to be published or will send it back for revisions if the changes within are too drastic. That should limit any changes, while keeping things within canonical boundaries.

It should, but does the track record show that it has done so?

Maybe, but that opinion still does not give you any authority to tell publishers what to do.

No, but I do hope you'll concede my right to express my opinion.

No, but I do think that some people need to get some perspective. This isn't Holocaust revisionism, it's just a damned roleplaying game. The way some people act though, anyone would think it was the former.

I I don't think anyone has ever acted in a way that justified anyone comparing it to reactions to Holocause revision. I certainly haven't, and I don't recall Bill doing it either. Your contention that we (or whoever the "some people" you refer to are ) have done so is pretty damn offensive. Fortunately, I don't take offense easily, especially over something as relatively trivial as Traveller. It's only a game, you know.

It is different. You can opinionate all you like about it, but ultimately Mongoose will do whatever they feel is best (maybe based on that opinion, maybe not). But at the end of the day nobody else needs to care whether you or anyone else disapproves of what Mongoose is doing or the reasons why they are doing it. And complaining about it after the fact (or before you even know what they are doing) is just a waste of everybody's time.

It's only a waste of time for those people who don't care but for some strange reason nevertheless persist in reading my opinions. And, frankly, if they insist on wasting their time, I couldn't care less.


Hans

 

[scrabble]

No, but I do hope you'll concede my right to express my opinion.

So long as you express it appropriately and respectfully, I have no problem with it. I have read some of the tirades that other people have posted here abut Mongoose Traveller and what they do, and those are neither appropriate nor respectful.

Fortunately, I don't take offense easily, especially over something as relatively trivial as Traveller. It's only a game, you know.

Some people seem to think it is a religion. I would suggest that they remember it is only a game.

 

[rancke]

So long as you express it appropriately and respectfully, I have no problem with it. I have read some of the tirades that other people have posted here abut Mongoose Traveller and what they do, and those are neither appropriate nor respectful.

As long as you confine your chastisements to specific examples of inappropriate tirades, I've no objection. It's blanket condemnations of entire groups of people that I find odious.

Some people seem to think it is a religion. I would suggest that they remember it is only a game.

To some of us it is more a hobby than a mere game, and you know how passionate people can get about their hobbies. Nevertheless, I agree that one should try to keep some perspective.


Hans

 

[scrabble]

To some of us it is more a hobby than a mere game, and you know how passionate people can get about their hobbies.

Hobbies are still not religions. This game does not need any self-appointed "High Priests", "Thought Police" or anything like that telling publishers what to do or that they are "wrong".

 

[rancke]

Hobbies are still not religions. This game does not need any self-appointed "High Priests", "Thought Police" or anything like that telling publishers what to do or that they are "wrong".

Epithets like "high priest" and "thought police" are highly impolite. Are you unaware of this or do you just not care?

As for what this game needs, we shall have to agree to disagree. I feel strongly that if and when publishers make mistakes, it behooves those who care about the game to do what they can to point out those mistakes and offer suggestions for correcting them.

Now, maybe your opinion is that it's not a mistake to publish material that heedlessly contradicts previously published information, but I do think it is a mistake, and when it comes to the stuff I react to, it's really my opinion that counts, not yours, and I'll thank you not to play thought police and try to impose your opinions on me.


Hans

 

[scrabble]

Epithets like "high priest" and "thought police" are highly impolite. Are you unaware of this or do you just not care?

They are not "impolite" in the slightest. If people act like High Priests and Thought Police, then they deserve to be labelled that way. If they do not act that way, then they won't get those labels.

it behooves those who care about the game to do what they can to point out those mistakes and offer suggestions for correcting them.

If you care about it that much, then get involved in the actual writing of the book so that those "mistakes" don't creep in to start with.

Complaining about it afterwards just comes across as bitter nitpicking.

Now, maybe your opinion is that it's not a mistake to publish material that heedlessly contradicts previously published information

I would prefer that they did not do that, but I am not going to harangue and lecture publishers after the fact if some mistakes slip through (as if they would reprint or correct the books just because of a few errors). And if I cared about it that much then I'd offer to help them avoid those mistakes before the book was published.

 

[Jeffr0]

They are not "impolite" in the slightest. If people act like High Priests and Thought Police, then they deserve to be labelled that way. If they do not act that way, then they won't get those labels.

You are being impolite.

Hans is a top Traveller author and has produced some of the highest quality works that have ever graced the product line.

Please show some respect.

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Good grief...

One off-hand comment and a four-pages-and-counting feces storm results.

Once again, I've no trouble with deliberate changes to canon, whether they actually end up improving the game or not. Deliberate changes mean someone thought about it. Sadly, too many of Mongoose's changes have not been deliberate.

Instead they've been a result of shoddy or nonexistent research, such as the artillery ranges in Mercenary, or failures of the vetting system, such as the bay weaponry rules in High Guard.

Actual deliberate changes Mongoose has made include the "Steward Opt-Out" rule, which I applaud, and the "Dark Side IISS", which I'm still mulling over.

I can respect a deliberate change, whether I agree with it or not.

Sorry, but who the hell are you to say this?

I'm Bill Cameron and I'm a prospective purchaser of MgT products.

What's more important to this thread is the question of who you are.

You're the late and unlamented drh, aren't you?

You were banned earlier this summer and are now back for another round as the sockpuppet "scrabble". You write like drh, you complain like drh, you use the same phrases as drh, you make the same points as drh, and leap to the same conclusions as drh. If we needed a stronger clue as to your identity , there hasn't been a Mongoose thread like this since drh was tossed out.

Welcome back.


Regards,
Bill

 

[scrabble]

Hans is a top Traveller author and has produced some of the highest quality works that have ever graced the product line.

Is he writing the Mongoose Vargr book?

 

[rancke]

They are not "impolite" in the slightest. If people act like High Priests and Thought Police, then they deserve to be labelled that way.

Calling someone an oblivious jerk would be impolite even if he was one. Granted, it would be much worse if he wasn't. I can't recall any one here on these fora who has actually acted as "high priests" and "thought police". As opposed to people who have made unfounded allegations about such behavior. Sure, there have been intemperate language on occasion, and a suggestion that Bill used the term "mess up" instead of "⌧ up" would IMO be quite acceptable (Sorry, Bill). But that's as far as it has gone. If you think otherwise, I suggest you bring proof to the table.

If they do not act that way, then they won't get those labels.

BWA-HA-HA-HAW! Say no more! For sheer whimsical humor you're never going to top that one!

If you care about it that much, then get involved in the actual writing of the book so that those "mistakes" don't creep in to start with.

I have.

I would prefer that they did not do that, but I am not going to harangue and lecture publishers after the fact if some mistakes slip through (as if they would reprint or correct the books just because of a few errors).

Yeah, because it's not like there's any way Mongoose could publish corrections to their books short of reprinting them. Say! I just had this incredibly brilliant idea that no one has ever had before! Mongoose could write electronic documents called, I dunno, 'errata sheets', maybe, and post them on their web pages! How's that for sheer unmatched brilliance? I can't believe no one has ever thought of that before! Am I a genius or what?!?

And if I cared about it that much then I'd offer to help them avoid those mistakes before the book was published.

I have.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Is he writing the Mongoose Vargr book?

If I was, there wouldn't be a problem, would there?


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

There is one thing that most people seem to be forgetting....Mongoose will publish materials to make ONE group happy. Paying Customers.
Beyond that, they probably wish to keep Marc Miller happy too, just so they can keep their license in the long run.
The rest of us can argue and moan all we like.
Every version of Trav has tinkered with the OTU and made destructive changes for the same reasons mentioned in the first sentence or two, yes? Why should this one be different?

But to judge it before its even written, and say nasty things about the publisher before it goes to press?
THAT's what I find offensive.

At least wait and read it before praising OR damning it.

 

[scrabble]

BWA-HA-HA-HAW! Say no more! For sheer whimsical humor you're never going to top that one!

Yeah, because it's not like there's any way Mongoose could publish corrections to their books short of reprinting them. Say! I just had this incredibly brilliant idea that no one has ever had before! Mongoose could write electronic documents called, I dunno, 'errata sheets', maybe, and post them on their web pages! How's that for sheer unmatched brilliance? I can't believe no one has ever thought of that before! Am I a genius or what?!?

Sarcasm is not a sign of intelligence.

If you offered to help them, then wait and see what they say. If they refuse your offer though, have the good grace to accept that.

 

[scrabble]

If I was, there wouldn't be a problem, would there?

There isn't a problem anyway.

 

[rancke]

There is one thing that most people seem to be forgetting....Mongoose will publish materials to make ONE group happy. Paying Customers.
Beyond that, they probably wish to keep Marc Miller happy too, just so they can keep their license in the long run.
The rest of us can argue and moan all we like.

Thank you kindly, sir. I shall take you on your word and argue and moan all I like.

But to judge it before its even written, and say nasty things about the publisher before it goes to press?
THAT's what I find offensive.

Bill expressed his expectations based on his previous experience with Mongoose products. I don't endorse those expectations; I have hopes that they will prove wrong. But Bill's remark was no nastier than saying that since the trains have been late this past week, you expect them to be late again today. You may be wrong, but how can you possibly know that? All you have to go on is past performance. Oh, and a statement by Mongoose Matt...

At least wait and read it before praising OR damning it.

I wonder, could you and Scrabble maybe argue this one out among the two of you? He says that complaining after the books are published is silly.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Sarcasm is not a sign of intelligence.

The highest mountain in Scotland is Ben Nevis.

offered to help them, then wait and see what they say. If they refuse your offer though, have the good grace to accept that.

I haven't posted any criticism of any Mongoose product here on these fora (or any other) for months. And since it's also a long time since anyone wailed and moaned about wicked Mongoose-bashers, I haven't reacted to those either recently. But as a newcomer here, I suppose you can't be expected to know that.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

Thank you kindly, sir. I shall take you on your word and argue and moan all I like.

so shall we all
and over ridiculously trivial things that we have no control over, too.

Bill expressed his expectations based on his previous experience with Mongoose products. I don't endorse those expectations; I have hopes that they will prove wrong. But Bill's remark was no nastier than saying that since the trains have been late this past week, you expect them to be late again today. You may be wrong, but how can you possibly know that? All you have to go on is past performance. Oh, and a statement by Mongoose Matt...

Actually, its more like saying that the trains arrived exactly as the printed schedule says they should, but that he thinks the times are bad.
"How dare the train arrive at noon when I think 11:45 is the proper time".
Plus, Mr.Whipsnade's use of foul language would appear to move his comments away from civil 'discussion' and dangerously close to spraying gasoline about, even when he is merely stating his own opinion as the rest of us do.
By the way, I am fully capable of reading and understanding his post without your explainiation of it to me.

I wonder, could you and Scrabble maybe argue this one out among the two of you? He says that complaining after the books are published is silly.

no no
you seem to be doing a fine job
Besides, if that's his stated position, then its just as silly to me as delivering a scathing review before its published. If you can't review a work after its written ( and pan it if badly done ), when should you review it?

 

[FreeTrav]

No, the grumbling to this day is about TNE - once they changed the name of Traveller:2300 to 2300AD, the grumbling stopped, essentially instantaneously.

The perception in some segments - and I admit that I'm sorta on the edge of those segments - is that TNE was the same sort of thing as 2300, as I said in my previous.

 

[robject]

Well, Don has been rather busy recently, mumbling something that sounds like a cross between growls and yelping/snuffling noises. So, with any luck, he'll have connected up Mongoose's author with a Vargr resource. And, with any luck, it'll be all rainbows and butterflies.