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PBI said,
Tom,

Yes, I'd say that was pretty much the case in almost all of Europe in the interwar years, even in the UK, though to a lesser degree.

What I was really getting at (and dancing around) with my comment on politics was your comments on Reagan and "liberals". We don't need to bring that kind discussion into the forum here, or at least not in this topic.
Well I meant "liberals" not liberals. Those people who called themselves "liberals" in the 1980s were really pacifists. I was there, I remember that wheneve Reagan did something that the Soviet Union would not like, the people who called themselves "liberals" would complain. Some tricks were played with the English language using lables such as "liberal" such that "liberal" no longer meant liberal.

The Democratic Party in the US was not a revolutionary party intent on spreading democracy throughout the World, that was just the truth and there is no way to hide that. The Democratic party at that time was really in its heart and sole the Pacifist Party. Look, the word "Pacifist" is also a word that has been played with. I believe in peace and War is not a good thing, but I would not call myself a pacifist because pacifist has become throughout the years, something more specific than just wanting peace. under the modern definition, the word pacifist essentially means someone who is unwilling to use military means to defend himself or his other values. A pacifist cannot consequently support democracy if that support makes war more likely. R

eagan was a democrat in a very real sense that most members of the Democratic party were not. Reagan was willing to risk war in order to support democracy in Eastern Europe. Remember that famous line, "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall!" Many Democrats would not utter such a statement because they were unwilling to risk a global war in order to support Democracy. if there was someone else instead of Gorbachev perhaps World War III might have resulted from Ronald Reagan's policies, but Reagan was willing to roll the dice and the Democrats were not. Under the Twilight 2000 alternate history Ronald Reagan may have been unlucky in his calculated gamble for democracy, he could not control how the Soviet leader would react, he could only hope. In Twilight 2000, his hopes were dashed instead of fulfilled, and he would probably have been blamed for creating the atmosphere under which World War III occured. There is no lesson in this except that if you take big risks you may reap big rewards or face terrible losses. The symbol for the Twilight 2000 game should be a picture of Gorbachev with a circle and slash on top to indicate "No Gorbachev" There is no reformer in the USSR, only reactionaries who are trigger happy and unafraid to start wars in promoting Soviet Expansionism.
 
There is something of a whole other Twilight: 2033 thread in here you know.

You want a well motivated technically competent opponent who could be persuaded to take part in a world ending war?

You could do far worse than the EU.

You can't fight Russian Hordes forever (its gone man, let it rest), and terrorists dont field panzer divisions.
 
Well its Alternate History, a perfectly legitimate field of Science Fiction. We know what weapons would have been used in Twilight 2000. Twilight 2033 is another story, we have to guess quite a bit as to the nature of troops and equipment in that era. I doubt that the EU can come together and become a menace so quickly. I suppose you'd need an EU equivalent of Adolf Hitler, my guess is that he would be a left-wing dictator who came to power on a platform of anti-Americanism, the Euro-public bought into it and voted for him, but they didn't realize how anti-American he was, and so he declared war on the US as soon as he consolodated enough power. The legislature rubberstamped his decisions. Americans on the continent were arrested and executed, those who were married to Americans were given 2 months to get divorced and hand over their spouses to be liquidated.

It puzzles me, this psycological need for an enemy, when one doesn't have to have one. I think its unlikely that Europeans are going to have a sudden urge to kill Americans simply to show their military prowess against the US. You could cookup a Middle East excuses for it, but the spirit of military compedition is a terrible reason to ask Europeans to sacrifice their sons, they don't need to know who has the better armed forces that badly.

I'm not sure how important the Middle East will be in 2033, I hope not very. To tell you the truth, I've had enough of those Arabs. Saudi Arabia has a per capita GDP of of $20,000 and now its down to $7,000 because they are incapable of adding economic value to what the export, they just pump oil and they hire foreigners to do it. Because their income is not as great as it once was, their turn their hatred onto US citizens, when the real fault is in their own lazyness. The Saudis were simply lucky to have so much oil, they didn't have to work for their lifestyle, and they did was have more children yet pumped the same amount of oil, the oil revenues were divided among more people, and because they can't bring themselves to do anything economically productive, they've turned to activities of killing Americans. I have trouble understanding why Europeans would want to be on their side. It seems alot of countries got hostile to the US because 3000 Americans got killed on 9/11. I don't care about any Arabs dictators and their petty hate politics. If we bump off one of those dictators, why should Europeans care? Arabs are fairly worthless as an economic productive sector.
 
this is somthing i posted to the Twilight 2033 topic a few days back for a posible 2020 twilight seting, no muss no fuss and alows you to use lots of stuff all redy out and you don't have to update the equpment list as the new stuff that comes out will be victoms of the emerging regreaive warfair envroment that is part of the meothos

the first world powers at this time are heavely invested in the current and emraging tech espechily the US and most of that is on highend big ticket items like fighters and ships. so say mid next decade the world powers finily get round to upgrading ground forces kit, just before the comensment of hostilitys only 50-75% of catgory A uinits have bean re-equipted, the nukes fall taking out the bulk of New-Tec production and battle feild atrision acounts for much of that alredy deployed the focous of war production falls to prevousaly civilion manafactures and everyone brakes out the warstocks to equip their swelling armies with cica 1990-2010 guns and ammo made in sporting goos factorys. with little acess to ammo and spears for their new equpment in theater US forces draw on old NATO (for europe) stockpiles and since verous contractors where compeating to create the "Euro-Rifle" for the EC they lack a standrdised New-Tec rifle so they join in the braking out of old stockpiles as the war drags on more and more older techonolgys are used by all partys to continue hostilitys as they can use civilion factorys and the few suviving militry contractors are left with only their older production ficilitys as the ones for newer tecknologys wher distoried erily in the war, this goes on untill it is T2K only +20 years on the dates. new techonolgys is a moot point bacause the factories are so much slag and rubble or cut-off from the theatre of opperasion


Now all you need is a series of triger events, say economic crises in europe (and else where) leads to the colapse of the CIS and a Neo-Markist coupe in Russia that then tries to restablish the USSR and Warsaw Pact by force of arms dispite atempts at counter-coupes and ristance by formor client states this leads to intervension by US & EC forces since the UN has bean dedlocked on most matters since the mid-2000's and reduced to little more than a humanitarian orgnision and debating forum.

in Aisa arfter a "suscsfull" nulclur test by North Korea sees the cease-fire that ended the Korean war is put to paied and hostilitys recomence, in China the economic redevlopment of the 90's and 2000's lead to choas and a colapse sillmer to Russia's due to the same ecnomic crises that kicked off the euro theater and the comencment of that war frount only makes it worse, but this time its a three (or more) cornerd fight as the ruling comunists face Neo-Maoists and democratic/nationalist fronts and the things deteroate untill all that is left is warlords claiming to repsent the differing factions. in Indonesia an exteramest (and supposedly) Islaimic Junta ceases power under questionable cermstances and tries to annex the newly uinited Timor and Papua New Guinea as well dispite verous politicaly modrate provinces trying to susceade Austrlia backs its allies and the secessionists.

Africa freed from international introversion sees long suppressed animosities brake in to endless rounds of open warfare and enteric cleansing through out much of the continent.

the US is badly nuked and is heavely engaged in most world thearters so is ill prepeared for the invaision of its southwesten states by the revoulsonary govenment that has ceased power in Mexico.

South America is hit hard by the world economic crises and the effects of the verous wars but along with Austrlia most probaly faires the best of all the contanants.

I have used this background for my T2K rivisons since the late 90's with grate suscess only updating slected details to fit changing world events, it means i can use most first and secound edision books with little modifacion and can use the 2nd edision rules without any hassles.
 
Twilight 2033 or Traveller 2033? 313. 29 years is a long time, beyond the foreseable Tech horizon. Do you know that the upcoming Movie "I Robot" is also set in this time period? I think technopessimism is one solution. 29 years pass and nothing much has happened and suddenly there is a Nuclear War! Its not just military tech that you have to consider. Consider that Spaceshipone has entered space. I think the private sector is going into space in a big way. Space elevator material should be available in 15 years, 2019. From the years 2020 to 2033, there should be space colonization. I don't think anyone will be worrying about the price of a barrel of crude oil at this time, a solution to our oil dependencies on the Middle East would be found by this time. Then there are Robots, I don't think you can get away with just having laptops with better graphics. If you place events in 2033, your asking for a science fiction setting. Twilight 2000 really isn't science fiction equipment wise, but the more you advance the calendar, the less you can expect things to remain the same. We've been in the technological doldrums regarding space travel since the 1970s. How much longer do you expect that to last? Perhaps the enemy could be a corporation instead of a Nation. Some company sets up a space colony and begins unsupervised weapons production there. Nuclear weapons can be constructed in space where spy satellites can't see. The Solar System is a big place. A "same old, same old" 2033 is not any more realistic unless World War III happened decades earlier.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Twilight 2033 or Traveller 2033? 313. 29 years is a long time, beyond the foreseable Tech horizon. Do you know that the upcoming Movie "I Robot" is also set in this time period? I think technopessimism is one solution. 29 years pass and nothing much has happened and suddenly there is a Nuclear War! Its not just military tech that you have to consider. Consider that Spaceshipone has entered space. I think the private sector is going into space in a big way. Space elevator material should be available in 15 years, 2019. From the years 2020 to 2033, there should be space colonization. I don't think anyone will be worrying about the price of a barrel of crude oil at this time, a solution to our oil dependencies on the Middle East would be found by this time. Then there are Robots, I don't think you can get away with just having laptops with better graphics. If you place events in 2033, your asking for a science fiction setting. Twilight 2000 really isn't science fiction equipment wise, but the more you advance the calendar, the less you can expect things to remain the same. We've been in the technological doldrums regarding space travel since the 1970s. How much longer do you expect that to last? Perhaps the enemy could be a corporation instead of a Nation. Some company sets up a space colony and begins unsupervised weapons production there. Nuclear weapons can be constructed in space where spy satellites can't see. The Solar System is a big place. A "same old, same old" 2033 is not any more realistic unless World War III happened decades earlier.
Setting Twilight in 2033 is perhaps a bit too far in the future, 2020 is probably a more realistic date. It should be possible to predict (to some degree of accuracy) what technology is used in modern warfare in 2020 - e.g. OICW, Eurofighter, unmanned attack aircraft etc.

Several people have mentioned a Twilight war taking place between the US and the EU. As an EU citizen I find this a complete non-starter. As it is, EU members disagree on many, many areas of policy, such as an EU constitution, foreign policy and defence. Suggesting the EU would (as a whole) decide to attack or go to war with the US is complete fantasy. Individual members of the EU may dislike US foreign policy (France/Germany), but that is a million miles away from being involved in a war with the US.

The only realistic main combatants in a Twilight 2020 war would be the US vs Russia or US vs China.
 
It is possible to have a European Empire cobbled together (ala. Third Reich) such that it could present a formidable adversary to the United States, that wouldn't be the EU though. Adolph Hitler "United" Europe by conquering his neighbors as did Napoleon. These things should not be called the EU though. If you alter the EU so as to make it an aggressive military Empire then its no longer the EU. You could do the same with the United States making it the United Empire of America, the main problem is that by doing so, you alienate a major proportion of your would be players. It is less controversial simply to have an alternate history and have the United States confront the Soviet Union, this is not so controversial as the Soviet Union does not exist anymore. There was never such a thing as a Soviet nationality, the Soviet Union was a multinational Empire heavily identified with the Russians, however the Russians understated their identification with the USSR by trying to emphasize its international characteristics.

2033 could simply be a continuation of the Twilight 2000 timeline 33 years later, this is basically the recovery period as stated in the Traveller 2300 Player's manual, its pretty well mapped out, but little is mentioned of the Political environment. I think civilization has not fully recovered and there are plenty of conflicts.

America: America was split by the chaos and aftermath of World War III into three factions: rival civilian and military governments and a reactionary isolationist New America. Territories controlled by the factions were a patchwork intermingling of all three and creating constant fighting. By 2020, the military and civilian governments settled their differences and joined a war against New America, then concentrated in the Southeast.
What's this a rebirth of the War between the States. How much are the odds that the flag of New America is the Confederate flag of old Dixie.
We could replay this as the Civil War except with modern weapons. There would be a Confederate Government in Richmond Virginia, and these Confederates want nothing to do with the liberals in the North and West. The New Americans are reactionaries in that they are more traditional, religious and completely fed up with the French and Russians who messed up their nation. It is the French mostly that "proved" their point that international involvement was a mistake, they are hence isolationist. The New Americans want nothing to do with minorities or foreign cultures, many of whom live in the Northeast. The rest of America seeks to reconquer the South. Some southerners aren't sympathetic to the New American Confederacy and are pro-Union.
 
I'd like my last post to this thred was just a repeat of somtning i posted to the Twilight 2033 thread and argued to bring the date back to around 2020 also that twilight is the end product five years of growing crises flowed by five years of active war, and as i pointed out my outling was just that an outline of how to build a twilight sanierio. also i pointed out that the twilight war was a regresive one where any new tech was eliminated over the space of the war ,any you want to include should be limited to plot devices, pc toys or major story arc rewards like the heleocoptor in the "Warsaw" saga.
 
Would anyone know how to use the more primitive weapons by 2033? I think the advances would not be in firearms per se, but in how their used, how they are aimed. by 2033 robots will be on the battlefield, they may be armed with machine guns just like our soldiers have today, but robot war machines would do the shooting and killing, perhaps directed by a few officers. Less advanced armies would have to rely on human soldiers. For a tech regression, you would need for the human Soldiers to kill off all the robots. I wonder how many personnel firearms for humans would still be manufactured, the ones used by the robots would bebuilt in and most likely unusable by humans. I think the manufacturing base for the more primitive weapons would be gone as well. Humans would have to rebuild that base from scratch and possible start with single shot rifles until they can figure out how to make automatic weapons. I think warbots might activated from time to time. The soldiers of thepost Twilight world would likely be even more poorly equipped and trained than soldiers of today as they wouldn't be accustomed to being soldiers, Grandpa would have to show them how, if he is still alive.
 
+++++Several people have mentioned a Twilight war taking place between the US and the EU. As an EU citizen I find this a complete non-starter.+++++

Well, Its isn’t now.

I postulate 30-50 years of bad blood and Competition to percolate things properly.

-------

Take, frex, this article from todays Guardian (Note: The Guardian is a very liberal paper – calling someone a guardian reader is about the equivalent of calling someone a pinko commie hippy):

+++++Suppose a champion athlete like Paula Radcliffe had to run 10km through a swamp before she even got to the starting line. This is Europe's position today.

If, after a bruising 30 months of national debates and referendums, the constitutional treaty finally comes into force at the end of 2006, Europe will only be at the starting line of every race that counts: the 100m sprint to provide a credible alternative to US unilateralism; the 1,000m race to foster reform in the wider Middle East before that region's troubles bring car bombs to all our front doors; the 5,000m to become competitive against the rising economic powers of Asia; the marathon we must start running now if we are to prevent global warming spiralling out of control.
It's the results of these big races, not the details of voting weights, the number of European commissioners or the apportionment of sovereignty, that will determine whether our children are more free, safe and prosperous in 20 years' time - which, in my book, is the main goal of politics. The European Union is only a means to that end, not an end in itself. The institutional arrangements codified in the constitution are but a means to create those means.

Is there a thinking man or woman alive in Europe who is not depressed by the prospect of spending yet more years of bad-tempered debate on such mind-numbing details? There we shall be, the so-called "opinion-formers", squabbling over contorted paragraphs and wrestling with tabloid shibboleths. Meanwhile, as the huge abstention rates in the European elections just showed, those whose opinions we are supposed to form have long since switched to another channel, to watch the football - or Paula Radcliffe winning the 5,000m in the European Cup. Who can blame them?

The constitution that emerged from the Brussels summit last weekend is not an inspiring document. It entirely lacks the simplicity, clarity and political poetry of great constitutions. Its preamble, written by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, is an embarrassment, especially when set beside that to the American constitution. The whole thing is too long. It mixes first-order statements about rights and responsibilities with second-order legal arrangements and often vague policy aspirations. On contentious issues, such as the requirements for qualified majority voting or the size of the European commission, it offers awkward compromises that make the EU more difficult, not easier, to explain to sceptical citizens. But it's the best constitution we've got.
It does not drastically alter the way the European Union works already. It should make some parts of the union function more effectively, despite the enlargement to 25 member states. Most of the power stays with the member states, although their representatives can find themselves outvoted on a wider range of issues. With a European foreign minister and a single president of the European council, Europe will have more chance of saying something to which the US might actually listen. These are modest gains; yet for 25 and more European states to cooperate so closely is already a triumph.

The problem for those politicians who now have to "sell" the constitution to their bored or hostile voters is that the case for it depends on unprovable alternatives. What, for example, if we had never had a European Union at all? Radical Eurosceptics, such as the UK Independence party, will claim we could have had a better Europe of sovereign, free, prosperous, closely cooperating democracies: a whole chocolate continent of big and little Switzerlands. To anyone with a milligram of historical nous, this is deeply implausible. For a clear majority of the present members of the EU, the return of freedom after dictatorship and the "return to Europe" have gone hand in hand. Being in the world's largest trading bloc has made us all richer. But you can never prove what would have happened if the EU had not existed.

Less drastically: what if Britain rejects the constitution in a 2006 referendum? The answer will depend on who else has done what in the meantime. If the French also give it the thumbs-down, in a referendum that Giscard says President Chirac must have, then the EU probably would go back to the drawing board. If Britain alone rejects it, and perhaps does so a second time after some further, cosmetic changes, then the other 24 would almost certainly go ahead on their own. Legally, this could put Britain in the splendidly paradoxical position of being the only remaining member of the current European Union. (There is no procedure under the existing treaties for kicking a member state out; so, in extremis, the others would all have to leave and make a new union, leaving little Johnny Bull as the only soldier marching in step.)

Most likely, however, Britain would be joined in a rejectionist lobby by several other states not belonging to the original, core European community of France, Germany, Italy and Benelux. In that case, some of the core countries, led by France and Germany, would almost certainly try to go ahead on their own, in a self-styled vanguard group. But the rejectionists would not take this lying down. If they included, say, Britain, Poland, Denmark and perhaps two or three more Scandinavian or east European countries, they would have the power to form a countervailing alliance. Europe would split, not unite. Some framework institutions of a European Union would remain, but these might gradually weaken into irrelevance, like the Holy Roman Empire. Real politics would take place elsewhere, and 2004 might then be seen by future historians as a high watermark of European unification - never again to be reached.
These more or less likely alternatives to the full, union-wide acceptance of the constitution have one thing in common: they would all result in Europe being preoccupied for still more years ahead with its own internal arrangements. Another American administration would have come and gone, a couple more Arab states would have plunged into chaos, the Chinese economy would have grown another 15 or 20%, rising carbon dioxide emissions would be further overheating the planet, and we Europeans would still be faffing around like a household of old maids, eternally squabbling about the arrangement of the furniture in their front parlour.

So enough is enough. The furniture and the architecture of this European Union are far from perfect, but they'll do for now. To adapt Churchill's famous remark about democracy: this is the worst possible Europe, apart from all the other Europes that have been tried from time to time. Tomorrow, we need to get out of the front door and face up to the challenges that will determine the fate of our children. Otherwise, in 2024, as our then grown-up children leave their small, highly fortified apartments and drag their way through the boiling heat or the blackened snow; as they dodge the nationalist gangs fighting with immigrants on the other side of the street; as they then queue up for hours to beg a half-time job from the local Chinese employer; so they will turn to us and ask: "What did you do in the great peace, Daddy?" And what shall we answer?+++++

But I think that’s a fairly accurate summation of how your British pro euro thinks.
Note how one of the main functions of Europe there is to provide another axis to resist US ‘unilateralism’. Really. Its what its set up for – to form another powerblock. Most would hope it can do this job peacefully (and it may not get to 'do the job' at all), but I could envision a future where things go wrong and the competition turns nasty.

There are real fault lines there which Could lead to conflict in a few decades time, and can be exploited for wargaming purposes.
Frex, to draw a scenario from the headlines, what if the US decides to basically withdraw from peacekeeping duties since they can’t guarantee legal protection for their soldiers. After no end of troubles their role as worlds policeman is usurped by the EU (leading to an increase in confidence in ass kicking ability of, and self importance of, Euros).

So, in 2040 or so, when the US shows interest in taking a foothold on some of the few remaining oil reserves through Peacekeeping Intervention, when they haven’t shown any interest in the last thirty years, and when the EU wants that same foothold, we get our nice war.
Or something.

-----------

Meanwhile, I just don’t see Russia as a threat.
Possibly I am biased or something (my brother in law is Russian, and I’ve spent a lot of time there in the last couple of years, but I can’t see them standing on the world stage for a long time to come.

The change over from communism to free market was completely bungled, and as a result everywhere that isn’t Moscow or St. Petersberg has basically regressed to subsistence level farming and a barter economy.

The west has also lost (most of) its mystique to the average ex-Soviet. They wouldn’t want to take it over if they could. They have their own house to put in order first. (lots of Russians do emigrate - but lots (especially from Moscow) return when they don't find the outside world much different, and get homesick).

So while Mr. Putin is authoritarian with the best of them, what they like about him is the stability he offers after a period of great change. I can’t see them going for a war party any time soon.

----------

Most of the major weapon systems we see today are expected to remain in service until around 2030-2035.

So you can get to about 2070 while remaining only one generation ahead of current systems.

Kinda. The DD(X) thing might be packing DEWs and railguns and bears (oh my!) before it goes out of service.
 
So, in 2040 or so, when the US shows interest in taking a foothold on some of the few remaining oil reserves through Peacekeeping Intervention, when they haven’t shown any interest in the last thirty years, and when the EU wants that same foothold, we get our nice war.
Or something.
Why would they want oil reserves in 2040? The existing oil reserves would not be enough to the expanding industrializing world population that would include China and India at this time. The World would have no choice but to develop alternative fuels and the Middle East and its oil fields would decline in importance.

In 1980, the per capita GDP of Saudi Arabia was $20,000, now its $7,000, in another 20 years it would be $2,000, and by 2040 perhaps $700. Saudi Arabia would be a poor third world country by 2040 as they have not learned how to produce something of value for export, the oil the export is no longer of significant value as their is by this time too many alternatives. Mid East conflicts are of only local concerns and the world's nations no longer get involved in them or their politics. Israel is doing rather well as they have a proserous high tech industry going, value an education and educate their women, while the traditional countries surrounding it do not and remain poor. Terrorist rates have declined as Israel has shut the Arabs out, their border is heavily fortified and the Arabs can no longer afford the cars to make car bombs out of. the conflicts of 2040 will be much different than those of today.
 
Well, if you don't like oil, feel free to suggest something else.

But remember, if we don't have a war, we don't have a game!

(Although I do think there has been something of a reminder recently that we Are going to run out of the stuff eventually and we Are going to have to do something about it.

So its topical.

And one could say that people made the change a little late.

All those Americans couldn't be persuaded to give up their SUVs, and all those little Englanders couldn't be persuaded to allow wind turbines in their back yards* until it was to late.

Or one could say

'And for such a silly reason, to'

and say that although oil is no longer critical, it becomes an excuse for the showdown that everyone knows has been coming.

*This is something of a problem in the UK at the moment - Labour wanted to have a big thing of building WTs, but in a remarkable display of NIMBYism call the country folk have decided they don't want their view spoiled.

Which I find odd cause I think they are beautiful.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
PBI said,
Tom,
Under the Twilight 2000 alternate history Ronald Reagan may have been unlucky in his calculated gamble for democracy, he could not control how the Soviet leader would react, he could only hope.
Reactionaries who are trigger happy and unafraid to start wars in promoting Soviet Expansionism.
In my opinion, in 1984 we came closer than the Cuban Missile crisis to a war with the Soviet Union. I was witness to part of it happening. Some trigger happy Soviet generals and policy makers attempted to sneak several ballistic missile subs to the US East coast. NATO caught the Soviet subs in the act and we sortied the Atlantic fleets in response. It was very, very tense. More pacifistic types in the Kremlin then recalled the force and began to purge the hot heads.
I read somewhere that a later interview with some former Soviet generals said that there was intent to get in a crippling preemptive strike if the subs got in range. One of them also credited this as being the straw that broke the back of militant and expansionist powers in the Soviet military.
I still wonder how much of it is true. I guess we will know in another 10 to 30 years…
 
I think 2015 is a more proper setting for a war. Weapons now under development will be on the battlefield by then. By 2033 its anyone's guess, I'm more optimistic with technology development, so I imagine robot wars and such. A more pessimistic sort would assume more soldiers in boots the fire rifles that are only a little more accurate. I think if there is a Twilight 2033 it should happen a decade or two after the war. If the war was in 2033, then the game begins in 2050 with only a few of the high tech weapons in operation and mostly low tech rifles. Every once in a while a Warbot is activated and the PCs must deal with it.
 
1984 was the time when things were nearly blown to hell and back but not quite in the typical western view point of the Soviet Union being run by Generals and so on. One of the key things a lot of people in the west have never realised about the Soviet Union and Communism is that it is a much more intense, scientific form of political mechanism than we are used to.

In 1984 the Soviet leadership was extremely worried that the US was going to attack, why? Because they couldn’t contemplate that the US would build all these new weapons (the Reagan military build up) unless they were going to actually use them. That was the scientific dialectic deduction, they idea that Reagan was building weapons to stimulate the higher end of the economy and appeal to the militarism of the voting public wasn’t something that fitted in on the CPSU’s radar screen.

This type of well thought out logical blunder when dealing with illogical approaches was one of the reasons the Soviet Union suffered so much in the Nazi invasion. The high level planners thought that of course the Axis would want to seize the industries and natural resources of the Ukraine and South Russia as that would be the best way to bring the Soviet Union down in the natural war of attrition between world powers. But Hitler wasn’t following a logical path and ordered attacks in the north and centre hoping to knock out the Soviet Union via a demoralising Blitzkrieg approach. So the Soviet forces were in the wrong areas and suffered badly but in the long run their more reasoned approach to warfare lead to them winning out over the Nazis.

But back to 1984: in this heightened state of tension and with the Soviet leader Andropov on his death bed NATO launched a theatre exercise (actually quite a moderate even though he was head of the KGB and if he didn’t die prematurely probably would brought in a lot of the Gorbachev reforms). Experts in the Soviet Union reported to the leadership that this exercise could actually be a cover for a pre-emptive attack in which the theatre assets could knock out the Soviet leadership before they knew an attack had been launched. In fact the attack could already be on the way and they wouldn’t be able to report it…

So thinking that the US had taken the ideological position of declaring war on the Soviet Union and NATO having launched an exercise that would be a perfect cover for it they were as you may guess not amused…

Fortunately no one pressed “the button” but it was an incredibly tense period, accurately represented in a lot of the nuclear war paranoia of the time.
 
I agree that the Twilight: 2033 scenario is increasingly “Travellerish”. Plus part of the appeal of Twilight: 2000 was that when you played it in the late 80s, early 90s you could imagine that this is what YOU would have to be doing in a few years. As a teenager in the 80s (I turned 17 in 1990) I was totally convinced that I would probably end up fighting and trying to survive a nuclear type war. Yes maybe playing games like Aftermath (the greatest of them all) and Twilight: 2000 contributed to this paranoia but anyway it was time better spent then hanging around the beach smoking dope.

So why not work on developing a similar Twilight scenario for our time?

Twilight: 2013

As to how this would happen well what’s actually going on in the world at the moment… Add in USA versus China and well presto World War Fugging Three.

Have some bio-warfare outbreaks and all hell breaks lose across the whole world.
 
Yes, I was sweating bullets when those subs sortied out. Very tense times indeed. It's a wonder we are all still here.

Originally posted by A. Gubler in the 24th Century:
I agree that the Twilight: 2033 scenario is increasingly “Travellerish”. Plus part of the appeal of Twilight: 2000 was that when you played it in the late 80s, early 90s you could imagine that this is what YOU would have to be doing in a few years.
I like the 2010-15 era for the twilight war for many of the same reasons.
Here’s a twist. 2008: A US civil war begins over another highly polarized, close election and other brewing differences in philosophy effectively neutralizing it as a world player. Forces are recalled back home and the world economy slumps. Europe and China then squabble over the scraps, especially oil. Things begin to settle by 2011 but a wild card is played in the form of a terrorist act for Muslim nationalism that, much like the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, starts a chain of inevitable events leading to global war.
 
I like the US civil war idea because it is somewhat of an unexpected event, almost implausible yet believable seeing the antics and anger over the 2000 election, new philosophies challenging the statues quo and a growing perception of corruption. If handled properly, i.e. not taking sides in writing, one could brew up an impartial and nasty fictional 2008 election and resultant unrest to boil over into a full fledged civil war.
Throw out the old CIVgov and MILgov and write up an updated schism with some passion to it using current events that the players can relate too. If written well, it could be a clever selling point to all.
I see a whole cascade of world events occurring during and after this. First, the US would need to pull back its forces to fight at home. Next, other powers would move in to and occupy the power vacuum. Next, these powers would squabble over the scraps and most likely intervene in the civil war. During all of this, the world economy would slump further complicating issues. Now, with the playing field somewhat leveled by neutralizing the hyper power, we have loads of room for a simple event to start the domino’s falling towards a global conflict.
Another reason I like this is because it doesn’t blame one country or group for starting a global war, instead we have a chain of Bismarkian webs setup to fall when some fictional individual does something stupid. Hell, you could even have the war start with the assassination of some powerful corporate in Sarajevo ;)
 
So how would the US entering into a civil war be a cause for WWIII and why would anyone intervene? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a US civil war in the Twilight history, just not as a cause for the war. It's not enough to have big bad nasty things happen in the timeline, it's about having those things happen where the situation is right to spark the war. In the original timeline, Europe was the natural choice because there were large numbes of hostile troops staring at each other (and which had been fully expecting to fight each other for decades). In the new timeline, Europe as a direct flashpoint is gone.

Building on a splintered US, why not add in a China that's breaking up (or about to) and a former USSR that takes a decided turn for the worse, leading to the EU getting grossly over-extended trying to keep the former Soviet states from total collapse (and all the instability that would bring). With the departure of the US from the world stage and with the remaining world power (the EU) barely able to handle things in its own backyard, what little cap there was on the brewing conflicts in the rest of the world goes away. The flashpoint could be between China and Russia (sort of a re-worked version of the Clancy book), when China attacks Russia to divert attention from their internal troubles and to grab Siberia's resources. That drags in the EU, the EU begins courting former NATO nations, including both (all?) parts of the former US. India decides to back China and woos the other part of the US to its cause and poof, we've got a full-blown WWIII, with NBCW invoked almost right from the start.

Characters could start in Russia, say, or, for a campaign closer to "home", Canada. Yeah, I know, it's a bit odd including Canada as one of the default choices at first glance, but consider that Canada is close to Russia, borders on the US (perhaps both parts of the former US?), has traditional close ties with many European countries, and, best of all, is polluted with natural resources. What better place to fight over in a shiny, new, screwed up world? ;)
 
So how would the US entering into a civil war be a cause for WWIII and why would anyone intervene? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a US civil war in the Twilight history, just not as a cause for the war. It's not enough to have big bad nasty things happen in the timeline, it's about having those things happen where the situation is right to spark the war. In the original timeline, Europe was the natural choice because there were large numbes of hostile troops staring at each other (and which had been fully expecting to fight each other for decades). In the new timeline, Europe as a direct flashpoint is gone.
The official Twilight 2000 history has a Civil War in it already,

By 2020, the military and civillian governments has settled their differences and joined in a war against New America, then concentrated in the Southeast.
The Southeast is the historic area of the Confederate States of America hence New America = CSA, there's your Civil War!
 
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