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Old West weapons

Blue Ghost

SOC-14 5K
Knight
I know what the standard CT examples for a revolver are. But I was wondering if six shooters from the American frontier (1860s to 1900) might have slightly different stats.

The CT revolver is pretty standard, but would a Colt 45 in MT be any different from the standard generic revolver in MT? What about GT or T4?

I've been watching a lot of Clint Eastwood westerns, which is why I ask :)
 
Depends. IMHO the Revolver in the game is a modern smokeless-powder cartridge revolver like they are sold today.

"Old West" weapons are mostly blackpowder weapons either using cap and ball (loose powder or combusting cartridge type) or blackpowder filled cartridges (Smokeless or Nitro powder comes into use post 1886 starting in France) so they might be a bit less powerful due to lower muzzle velocities
 
I do not know if this is off topic, but the biggest difference between Traveller and the West (both real and Holywood) would be the revolver skill. Gunfighters can deliver a 1-6 round Traveller "burst" of fire with a revolver and would have a significant initiative advantage over a revolver or semi-auto pistol in a military style holster.
 
I believe most revolvers from the "Old West" were significantly higher caliber than most revolvers at the time CT/MT were published. So, it should pack a bigger wallop.
 
CT/MT weapons don't distinguish very well on range/damage. PeacemakeColtsand loading gate Winchesters are slower to reload, cap and ball much slower. Colt Walkers and Dragoons are more powerfull, enough to make a difference, but they also weigh 2 Kg.

Carbines have penetration/damage like pistols (they use the same cartridges). Except the 1876 and 1886 Winchesters that fire very powerfull rounds.
 
How to manifest it in MT? Simple: -1 Pen, +1 Damage, incompatible round. (12mm pistol)
 
I believe most revolvers from the "Old West" were significantly higher caliber than most revolvers at the time CT/MT were published. So, it should pack a bigger wallop.

Quite a few "old west" cartridge revolvers use .44-40 (Same as the Winchester 73), .45 (Colt Single Action Army) or .36 / .38, that translates to calibers between 8 and 12mm. Brits also get .456, again well in the 12mm range
 
O W Weapons

Aramis's take seems logical.

The killing power of 19thC firearms are no less than todays common weapons.

The most common OW is Colt Single Action Army Model P Peacemaker introduced in 1873. It was a six shot revolver firing a .454 dia. 255gr bullet propelled by 40gr of black powder. As pistols go that was devestasting. MV had no affect, MV is important in weapons like 5.7mm FN or 9mm Luger the high MV means a fast, high penetration round, low kill probability. Old West was pure penetrating blunt trauma with a soft lead bullet expanding as it moves to an inch in dia.

Modern bullets are jacketed for better penetration, less expansion; or hollow pointed for devastating wounds.

OW weapons were loaded one round at a time making reloads slow until modern swing out cylinder introduced in 1892 at which time pistols moved to anemic .38 cal (.357 dia.). The Colt M1911 was designed to duplicate the M1873 by using .452dia 230gr bullet with new powders. The top-break revolvers (S&W and Webley) were susceptible to malfunction as not a solid frame design.

Again on MV. The US standard cartridge was the 45-70 used in M1873 Springfield rifle. The bullet comes out so slow you can see it in flight down range. Yet it will kill with one shot any animal smaller than an elephant. The modern .30-06 can't kill much above the elk size consistently. The 45-70 is still a mainstream hunting cartridge today. MV not important with a 350-500gr bullet vs the hi velocity 30-06 173gr.

So your .45 Colt, 44WCF and 45-70 Govt. are man-killers. The downside is slow reload, dense smoke creating smoke screen outdoors with extended fire and a tear gas like fog indoors and low magazine capacity (except Winchester rifles which hold 13-17 rnds, 10 in carbines). In addition black powder fouls rifles and binds cylinders requiring cleaning even in combat.
 
Again, IIRC, the black powder cartridge .45 Colt was loaded to about 900 feet per second with a 260 grain bullet. A little more energy than standard contemporary loadings of .44 Special and .45 ACP.

The .45-70 was a middleweight among cartridges that were used to hunt buffalo.


Check out the Box O' Truth for some interesting empirical tests.

Tom
 
Aramis's take seems logical.

The killing power of 19thC firearms are no less than todays common weapons.

The most common OW is Colt Single Action Army Model P Peacemaker introduced in 1873. It was a six shot revolver firing a .454 dia. 255gr bullet propelled by 40gr of black powder. As pistols go that was devestasting. MV had no affect, MV is important in weapons like 5.7mm FN or 9mm Luger the high MV means a fast, high penetration round, low kill probability. Old West was pure penetrating blunt trauma with a soft lead bullet expanding as it moves to an inch in dia.

Modern bullets are jacketed for better penetration, less expansion; or hollow pointed for devastating wounds.

OW weapons were loaded one round at a time making reloads slow until modern swing out cylinder introduced in 1892 at which time pistols moved to anemic .38 cal (.357 dia.). The Colt M1911 was designed to duplicate the M1873 by using .452dia 230gr bullet with new powders. The top-break revolvers (S&W and Webley) were susceptible to malfunction as not a solid frame design.

Again on MV. The US standard cartridge was the 45-70 used in M1873 Springfield rifle. The bullet comes out so slow you can see it in flight down range. Yet it will kill with one shot any animal smaller than an elephant. The modern .30-06 can't kill much above the elk size consistently. The 45-70 is still a mainstream hunting cartridge today. MV not important with a 350-500gr bullet vs the hi velocity 30-06 173gr.

So your .45 Colt, 44WCF and 45-70 Govt. are man-killers. The downside is slow reload, dense smoke creating smoke screen outdoors with extended fire and a tear gas like fog indoors and low magazine capacity (except Winchester rifles which hold 13-17 rnds, 10 in carbines). In addition black powder fouls rifles and binds cylinders requiring cleaning even in combat.

Hmmm, this muzzle velocity talk got me thinking!!

So Muzzle Velocity has no effect - so what is it kills a target??

Tissue trauma, bone trauma, organ trauma and an enormous dose of kinetic energy.

Equation for kinetic energy - 1/2 mv2

Sorry can find superscript........so the kinetic energy of a round is 1/2 the mass of the round ,times the square of the velocity....so as velocity goes up ,the kinetic energy imparted goes up squared! Muzzle velocity has a huge impact!

This is why assault rifle rounds have become smaller recently - higher impact energy, lighter rounds mean you can carry more and also lower recoil of the weapon!


The muzzle velocity of the 1873 45-70 round is apparently 1350fps.....or 411 m/s (faster than the speed of sound - 330m/s at sea level)....my source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Model_1873

Provides approx 2450 joules of energy on impact



The 30-06 calibre bullet depending on bullet mass :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield

3835 to over 4000 joules of energy on impact


Looks to me like the 30-06 provides more killing power! Matching the 205 grain 1873 round to a 200 grain 30-06 shows the 30-06 to be 1400 joules ahead (57%) at 3988.

I would suggest that muzzle velocity does play an important part in the lethality of a round!

As for watching rounds travelling, most rounds I fired were .38 or 9mm (handguns), with MV between 300m/s to 400m/s which I never saw in flight....admittedly our range was indoor 25m one, so not much chance!

Still regardless of the physics - would rather not have any of those rounds entering my body at whatever speed!!!:)
 
Sorry back to the original post....I have only played CT......so compared to the standard examples provided in LBB1 for revolvers and carbines....I'd probably have a -1 at all ranges over the standard guns, and a -1 on armour factors.......but damage would be the same.
 
Johnny, the mass comes into play when transferring the KE to the target - which is all that matters when shooting bad guys. If the mass is insufficient (really, if the area touching the target is insufficient), the velocity part won't get transferred - and you get a small hole through the victim and the bullet keeps going. Normally, a large mass equates to lots of surface area (especially if it mushrooms nicley) to pass that KE into the body.
 
Johnny, the mass comes into play when transferring the KE to the target - which is all that matters when shooting bad guys. If the mass is insufficient (really, if the area touching the target is insufficient), the velocity part won't get transferred - and you get a small hole through the victim and the bullet keeps going. Normally, a large mass equates to lots of surface area (especially if it mushrooms nicley) to pass that KE into the body.

The smaller mass bullets these days are unstable in a body...they 'tumble', thereby imparting all of their kinetic energy!!

A large fast bullet that enters, goes though and leaves a body, does not impart all of that kinetic energy and is therefore inefficient as a killing tool!

I remember watching a video years ago called 'Deadly Weapons'. That guy dispeclled quite a lot of movie myths about what guns can and can't do!!:)

Oooh, here's a link to it: http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Weapons-Firepower-Alexander-Jason/dp/B00009YP7P
 
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What kills - Lengthy blather warning

Based upon my internet perusal of handgun incapcitation studies/theories, including a study done by the FBI, blood loss and damage to critical organs cause incapcitation and/or death. Transfer of kinetic energy is not directly the cause of incapcitation or death. The deeper and wider the hole, the greater the bleeding and the greater the chance of hitting a vital organ. Given bullets of equal mass and similar construction, the bullet with greater velocity is probably going to penetrate deeper. Therefore, more bleeding and increased chance of hitting a vital organ.

The FBI concluded that an effective handgun bullet must be able to consistently penetrate at least 12" in ballistic gelatin (presumably having a shortage of people or animals to shoot). For a given cartridge, the lightest bullets usually have the greatest kinetic energy (due to velocity squared). The lightest bullets usually have the poorest penetration. Usually the heaviest bullets have the best penetration. Greater sectional density apparently helps.

Velocity is important for reliable expansion of hollow point bullets. IIRC about 1000 fps is needed for reliable expansion. I think that is changing with contemporary bullet designs. "reliable expansion" is apparently a relative thing for handgun velocities; a figure that I have seen for expansion of handgun hollow points is that about 65% expand. The design/construction of a bullet is very important in terms of how well it causes wounds.

"Instant kills" from wounds inflicted by shotgun, rifle and handgun projectiles are, I have read, rare. Anecdotal evidence, a deer that my brother shot a couple of years ago ran 50 yards before falling (not unusual, I believe). Dressing the deer he found that the bullet had passed through the deer's heart.

My apologies in advance for repeating things that others have already posted.

Tom
 
Well, from what I've read.....4000 joules of energy in the one jolt does wonders for incapacitating you! But I could be wrong, I have been hit lately by a modern Assault Rifle bullet.

Also, with the move to smaller calibre rounds these days, and the increase in kinetic energy comes a new phenomenon. These rounds on striking a body become very unstable, and 'tumble' in the target. They rarely penetrate, tumble and therefore pass on all of their kinetic energy. Also, the tumbling causes the rounds path in the body to be unpredicatable - no neatly drilled hole that you can follow to the round. This also increases tissue trauma and probability of hitting those vital internal organs!

Modern military doctrine is all for incapacitating the target to prevent the target retruning fire.....but they would rather the target is not killed outright, as then someone else from the target's side has to render first aid and care for the wounded targte...thereby removing two of the opposition's personnel from the firefight!
 
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