Old West weapons
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Johnny_BoomBoom
SOC-9
From physics and the rules on conservation of momentum.....if the round has momentum enough to incapacite the target, it will also incapacite the firer.....
When you see the movies depicting targets being hit and 'going flying' as a result of the bullet impact, it's actually more likely the targets reaction and involuntary actions to get away for the sudden and excruciating pain!!! If the bullet striking the target could knock him flying ,the same has t be said of the firer (but in the movies, asd they fire blanks...you barely get recoil at all!).
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Correct Johnny BB.
Hollydream didn't used to lie about bullet effects but it's been so long that the common public believes in blowback without recoil. Magic fantasy. Look at some old westerns and you'll see people getting shot and falling down, face forward even. They don't fly back, they just drop. That's reality.
As for higher momentum incapacitating a target more effectively, that sounds too close to the whole "stopping power" argument with it's own fallacies. Bullet wounds are largely unpredictable in effect without knowing where you're hitting and a host of other variables. Variables far too specific for the granular hit/wound dynamics of even a complicated rpg. Don't sweat it too much Ishmael
Hollydream didn't used to lie about bullet effects but it's been so long that the common public believes in blowback without recoil. Magic fantasy. Look at some old westerns and you'll see people getting shot and falling down, face forward even. They don't fly back, they just drop. That's reality.
As for higher momentum incapacitating a target more effectively, that sounds too close to the whole "stopping power" argument with it's own fallacies. Bullet wounds are largely unpredictable in effect without knowing where you're hitting and a host of other variables. Variables far too specific for the granular hit/wound dynamics of even a complicated rpg. Don't sweat it too much Ishmael
selunatic2397
SOC-12
The closest my group has came to the old west was that lever action 40mm grenade launcher from an episode of Cowboy Bebop!
Although much used in the past, it now seems to be resting on it's laurels over the mantle of a retired scout.
Although much used in the past, it now seems to be resting on it's laurels over the mantle of a retired scout.
I'm thinking that momentum is important for penetration, which I think is important for causing wounds. It appears that for a given cartridge, based upon shooting ballistic gelatin, bullets with greater momentum usually penetrate farther than bullets with lesser momentum. It is very possible that Ishmael was thinking the same. He did not make any statement regarding the target of bullets flying backward or otherwise. If a bullet comes to rest in a target, then its momentum was certainly dissipated. If the bullet passes through a target I submit that it looses some of its velocity in the process (and thus some momentum and some kinetic energy).
Greater penetration by heavier bullets is probably simply due to greater sectional density.
I suspect that persons promptly falling down dead when struck by a handgun bullet does not occur all that often. Dying a little or a lot later is another matter.
I agree that trying to model slug thrower damage capacities for a roleplaying game is not possible while keeping the game within the realm of what I consider to be playable. And that is the case even before one considers that for a given cartirdge there are many different loadings using bullets of different weights and designs.
Tom
Greater penetration by heavier bullets is probably simply due to greater sectional density.
I suspect that persons promptly falling down dead when struck by a handgun bullet does not occur all that often. Dying a little or a lot later is another matter.
I agree that trying to model slug thrower damage capacities for a roleplaying game is not possible while keeping the game within the realm of what I consider to be playable. And that is the case even before one considers that for a given cartirdge there are many different loadings using bullets of different weights and designs.
Tom
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I wasn't even thinking about knockback, although I imagine that there could be a tiny bit, though not enough to be noticable given the mass of a human. I bet a chipmunk hit by a 12 guage slug might be knocked back some...or a human hit by a flak-88. Even though human knock-back is so tiny, it sure makes a nice cinematic action bit of fluff in some cases.
I do think that heavy bullets lose energy slower than light bullets and thus would have better attenuation numbers. Could that be one reason heavy sniper rifles are .50 instead of .223 with a huge charge?
take my ideas with a huge block of salt; I'm no ballistics guy.
in any case FF&S1 figures damage from muzzle energy, and thats worked okay for me so far, so why worry about it?
I do think that heavy bullets lose energy slower than light bullets and thus would have better attenuation numbers. Could that be one reason heavy sniper rifles are .50 instead of .223 with a huge charge?
take my ideas with a huge block of salt; I'm no ballistics guy.
in any case FF&S1 figures damage from muzzle energy, and thats worked okay for me so far, so why worry about it?
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Dear Folks -
FWIW, I have a table of Archaic Firarms set up with MT stats here:
<http://members.pcug.org.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/combat/hyp_wpn/oldmissl.htm#Early Firearms>
It even has a MT-style equipment sheet for the Le Mat revolver.
FWIW, I have a table of Archaic Firarms set up with MT stats here:
<http://members.pcug.org.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/combat/hyp_wpn/oldmissl.htm#Early Firearms>
It even has a MT-style equipment sheet for the Le Mat revolver.
selunatic2397
SOC-12
The Le Mat is just about the coolest cap and ball revolver ever!
Energy and momentum. Penetration of hard materials is porportional to cross-sectional energy (Joules/cm2). Penetration in soft/wet material is porportional to cross-sectional momentum (g*m/s / cm2).
Of course if the projectile deforms (hollow points) or yaws (turns sideways) the crossection changes. And light, high energy,low momentum projectiles cause pressure waves and cavitation in soft-wet materials that generally do no permanent damage.
Most of the time. Exterior ballistics is just a lot of math. Terminal ballistics is a bit of math, the exact placement of the bullet, which tissues and bone it transects, whether it stays stable, deflects, yaws, even breaks up, and some luck.
.50 BMG is used for long range fire because the big, long, bullet is slowed less drastically by the air, retaining more energy and momentum at long ranges. With about the same muzzle velocity a 5.56mm will go 2700m, a 7.62mm bullet will go 3500m, and a 12.7mm will go 7000 m.
The Le Mat is cool, and JEB Stuart liked them, but they are heavy and about the most awkward pistol I have held.
Of course if the projectile deforms (hollow points) or yaws (turns sideways) the crossection changes. And light, high energy,low momentum projectiles cause pressure waves and cavitation in soft-wet materials that generally do no permanent damage.
Most of the time. Exterior ballistics is just a lot of math. Terminal ballistics is a bit of math, the exact placement of the bullet, which tissues and bone it transects, whether it stays stable, deflects, yaws, even breaks up, and some luck.
.50 BMG is used for long range fire because the big, long, bullet is slowed less drastically by the air, retaining more energy and momentum at long ranges. With about the same muzzle velocity a 5.56mm will go 2700m, a 7.62mm bullet will go 3500m, and a 12.7mm will go 7000 m.
The Le Mat is cool, and JEB Stuart liked them, but they are heavy and about the most awkward pistol I have held.
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G. Fieendish
SOC-12
Ironically, the Barrett sniper rifle is used in the U.K in disposing of "suspect packages" as part of bomb disposal, not as a sniper rifle, as it's considered too unsubtle.... (The current British Army sniper rifle uses .338 rounds).
As for the example given, during the early part of World War II, the German Army anti-tank rifle used a "Wildcat" round, consisting of a 7.92mm bullet, mated to a 13mm cartridge....
Reguarding instant kills, much depends on location of wound. There is a case on record of someone killing an elephant with a .22 rimfire rifle. I read about this in some gun magazine while I was in the Navy ('69 - '77) so I can't give any referance. Seems this man had more courage than most. He stood up to a charging rouge bull, side stepped at the last instant and shot it through the ear where there was only a little bone to deflect the bullet. Lots more skill and nerve than I would have had. As well as having the knowledge of where to shoot.
As far as the 1911 Auto Colt pistol is concerned, it was designed after the older, 38 revolver proved ineffective aginst doped up native tribesmen in the Philippines during the last part of the 1800's.
As far as the 1911 Auto Colt pistol is concerned, it was designed after the older, 38 revolver proved ineffective aginst doped up native tribesmen in the Philippines during the last part of the 1800's.
spelling
The US also used the Barrett for EOD, it is technically an "anti-material rifle" because itis not really that accurate. But .50 bolt action rifles are used for extreme long range sniping. IIRC, the record kill belongs to a Canadian who made a 2700m shot with a .50 bolt action.
Generally,7.62 is considered good to 800-1000 meters, the .338 for 1000-1250m. In .50 BMG, a good rifle and a laser range finder, 2000 meters is a good long range. Beyond 2000 meters is considered the province of custom rounds like the .408 Chey-Tac or .416 Barrett.
The US also used the Barrett for EOD, it is technically an "anti-material rifle" because itis not really that accurate. But .50 bolt action rifles are used for extreme long range sniping. IIRC, the record kill belongs to a Canadian who made a 2700m shot with a .50 bolt action.
Generally,7.62 is considered good to 800-1000 meters, the .338 for 1000-1250m. In .50 BMG, a good rifle and a laser range finder, 2000 meters is a good long range. Beyond 2000 meters is considered the province of custom rounds like the .408 Chey-Tac or .416 Barrett.
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shadowdragon
SOC-12
i have been told but do not know for true:
Geneva conventions ban the use of .50 cal rounds (maybe from mg only?) specifically against humans, but against an object is ok. so U.S. soldiers are not shooting AT humans, they are attempting to disable their uniforms, or the steering wheel of the vehicle being driven, etc... But NOT at the person.
anyone know if this is hogwash?
Geneva conventions ban the use of .50 cal rounds (maybe from mg only?) specifically against humans, but against an object is ok. so U.S. soldiers are not shooting AT humans, they are attempting to disable their uniforms, or the steering wheel of the vehicle being driven, etc... But NOT at the person.
anyone know if this is hogwash?
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Captain Midnight
SOC-12
Yes, it's hogwash.
To elaborate a little more... the Geneva Conventions have to do with the treatment of noncombatants and prisoners of war. The pertinent treaties are the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 which have to do with defining the laws of war. The Hague Conventions prohibit bullets that expand or flatten easily in the human body, or the use of poisoned weapons, or to "employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering". There are national policies put into place by various powers to limit the use of various weapons, but they aren't required by treaty. You'll also hear a lot of people say they were exposed to that urban myth in basic training, with the "just shoot his belt buckle" caveat added on; while it might make an impression on new recruits, it's not actually what is required according to the treaties.
shadowdragon
SOC-12
i thought so, but its been a while since i've had any but cursory thoughts of the geneva conventions. even when i was active military it was gone over in a class in basic but not strongly imprinted the way the general orders are. i still knew my general orders verbatim (except for one of them, which i never did memorize) 5 years after i got out.
Shadow Bear
SOC-12
Small vs. Large
Here in Alaska some Native Americans use a .22 cal. rim fire to hunt grizzlies. They shoot them in the lung and wait for the bear to bleed to death. The bear thinks it was stung by a wasp or hornet and ignores the pain. The sound of the small caliber weapon will not carry as far or seem as close.
This is not the way I want to hunt bear or any large carnivorus animal. I would use a large caliber rifle.
The Colt 1911 was purchased by the US to stop an enemy the .38 had little effect on. The fact that the 1911 is still used today speaks for its effectiveness. Yes a 9mm has more rounds in its magazine and has better penetration but the .45 is a man killer. I'll stick with the .45.
The 9mm can spit out more rounds very quickly without reloading as much as the.45 but if you can hit what you are amming at the first one round does the trick with a .45. I am not a fan of 'spary and pray'.
Here in Alaska some Native Americans use a .22 cal. rim fire to hunt grizzlies. They shoot them in the lung and wait for the bear to bleed to death. The bear thinks it was stung by a wasp or hornet and ignores the pain. The sound of the small caliber weapon will not carry as far or seem as close.
This is not the way I want to hunt bear or any large carnivorus animal. I would use a large caliber rifle.
The Colt 1911 was purchased by the US to stop an enemy the .38 had little effect on. The fact that the 1911 is still used today speaks for its effectiveness. Yes a 9mm has more rounds in its magazine and has better penetration but the .45 is a man killer. I'll stick with the .45.
The 9mm can spit out more rounds very quickly without reloading as much as the.45 but if you can hit what you are amming at the first one round does the trick with a .45. I am not a fan of 'spary and pray'.
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Johnny_BoomBoom
SOC-9
From personal experience, I always found 9mm (used in a CZ75, Hi Power Browning or Tanfoglio 9mm auto) easier to handle/control when firing that a .45 auto (the one I fired was a Star I believe). This could've been as a result of the small size of the .45 I used though.
Interestingly see this quote from Wikipedia :-
Even in its non-expanding full metal jacket (FMJ) version, the .45 ACP cartridge has a reputation for effectiveness against human targets because its large diameter creates a deep and substantial permanent wound channel, although some writers, such as the published work of Marshall and Sanow, have cast the reputation of .45 ACP being the "best" at this task into doubt. Marshall & Sanow's work, while receiving heavy criticism from Dr. Fackler, still show the .45 ACP, loaded with the best hollowpoint bullets, to be a "one shot kill", somewhat better than the 9mm Luger, equal with the .40 S&W, and only a few percentage points behind the "King" of the Marshall and Sanow study - the .357 Magnum. It does not, however, match up to the 9mm Luger, the .40 S&W or the .357 Magnum without the best hollowpoint bullets. The .45 ACP averages 78.5% "one shot kill" while the 9mm Luger averages 87%, the .357 Magnum averages 89.5% with the .40 S&W on top with 91.5% average "one shot kill". The .45 ACP remains one of the top handgun cartridges for stopping power.
Taken from this Wikipedia site:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP
Just my cents worth (or should that be 2 credits...)
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Stupid question:
In Europe 9mm Luger is the ORIGINAL 9x19(1) while 9mm Parabellum is the modern 9x19 from the 1930s. The two cartridges are slightly different, the 9mm Para is more powerful. Is using 9mm Luger just a US-quirk or do they still load to the older variant instead of NATO-standard round? Does anyone have performance figures of a 9mm Luger from a Walter P38 or Browning High-Power?
(1) ÎIRC hastily made in 1902 by "blowing up" a necked 7.65mm cartridge to a straight-walled 9mm without changing the load
In Europe 9mm Luger is the ORIGINAL 9x19(1) while 9mm Parabellum is the modern 9x19 from the 1930s. The two cartridges are slightly different, the 9mm Para is more powerful. Is using 9mm Luger just a US-quirk or do they still load to the older variant instead of NATO-standard round? Does anyone have performance figures of a 9mm Luger from a Walter P38 or Browning High-Power?
(1) ÎIRC hastily made in 1902 by "blowing up" a necked 7.65mm cartridge to a straight-walled 9mm without changing the load
