That seems to be the most developed part of T5. Weapons and armor are tuned as Marc wants them, and damage is against characteristics, which is normal for Traveller.
Original T5 Personal Combat
- Thread starter Supplement Four
- Start date
That seems to be the most developed part of T5. Weapons and armor are tuned as Marc wants them, and damage is against characteristics, which is normal for Traveller.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
There are lots of differences. Sure, the attack task is basically the same, but look at movement. Look at the combat round structure. Look at the length of the combat round. Look at how special rules are applied like Knockdown from T5.09 and Supression from T5.00. Look at how hand-to-hand and melee is resolved (still not working great in T5.09).
I think that there are a ton of differences.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I totally disagree. There are still some big questions about fire combat that need to be resolved, like, "Is there an order to how Damage Types are applied to armor?"
For example, if you've got Armor 10 and a weapon does Bullet-2 Frag-3, do you roll the 2D of Bullet first before you roll the 3D of Frag? Because you are not likely to penetrate with the Bullet damage, but you've got a 50% chance to penetrate with the Frag damage.
If the Frag is taken first, and it penetrates, the the Bullet damage will be extra damage applied to the target.
If the Bullet is taken first, and it does not penetrate, then the Frag damage might penetrate and do little extra damage.
So, it matter which way you roll it.
Or....are we supposed to add it all up and roll it all it once as damge: In this case, roll 5D vs. Armor 10.
If that's the case, then why have different damage types listed if they really don't mean anything. Why not just list the weapon as doing 5D damage?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Not a bad idea. He'll always choose the most deadly approach, of course.
The reverse is to let the Defender decide, who will always choose the least deadly. This is kinda like allowing the defender to allocate damage dice to stats in CT.
Among the two, I'd probably lean to keeping PC's alive and allow Defenders to choose order.
But, there should be an official progression.
One way to make a progression is to consider each damage type by its penetration value. Bullet damage would go before Frag damage in this case.
Complicating this is that there are two types of "armor". There's Armor, and there's Protection.
But, Protection isn't penetrated and discarded the way armor is when penetrated. Protection remains.
So, you can handle Protection damage first, then each damage type taken on some progression order.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Here's BIG problem I have with the "improved" T5.09 Combat System. IT'S WAY TOO DICE HEAVY!
It's going to take forever to get through combats, if you follow the rules.
Look at the steps--
HERE'S A STANDARD BURST ATTACK VS. UNARMORED JOE 777777.
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to hit again (Burst Fire allows two attacks).
3. Weapons does Bullet-2 Frag-3 damage. That means there are two Hit Location throws for each attack--a total of 4 Hit Location throws.
4. Roll Damage. This can be 4 rolls, if both attacks hit. You roll 2D twice for the two Bullet hits. Then you roll 3D twice for the two Frag hits. You've got to roll them this way (you can't just roll 10D and be done with it) because, normally, you've got to figure in penetration and armor. I left that out of this example to be simple! :rofl:
5. For each die of damage that hits, roll randomly on target's stats. Since Bullet and Frag both do Hit type damage, each die that penetrates is rolled randomly on targets three physical stats. In this case that's 10 more rolls. You've got to roll those separately to see where the damage goes randomly.
So, ONE ATTACK in this game using a standard burst fire attack could potentially lead to 20 DICE THROWS!
THAT'S NUTS!
And, think about the poor Ref, trying to keep up with NPCs. Whew.
It's going to take forever to get through combats, if you follow the rules.
Look at the steps--
HERE'S A STANDARD BURST ATTACK VS. UNARMORED JOE 777777.
1. Roll to hit.
2. Roll to hit again (Burst Fire allows two attacks).
3. Weapons does Bullet-2 Frag-3 damage. That means there are two Hit Location throws for each attack--a total of 4 Hit Location throws.
4. Roll Damage. This can be 4 rolls, if both attacks hit. You roll 2D twice for the two Bullet hits. Then you roll 3D twice for the two Frag hits. You've got to roll them this way (you can't just roll 10D and be done with it) because, normally, you've got to figure in penetration and armor. I left that out of this example to be simple! :rofl:
5. For each die of damage that hits, roll randomly on target's stats. Since Bullet and Frag both do Hit type damage, each die that penetrates is rolled randomly on targets three physical stats. In this case that's 10 more rolls. You've got to roll those separately to see where the damage goes randomly.
So, ONE ATTACK in this game using a standard burst fire attack could potentially lead to 20 DICE THROWS!
THAT'S NUTS!
And, think about the poor Ref, trying to keep up with NPCs. Whew.
David Johansen
SOC-12
I've been wobbling around on writing a fixed combat alternative. I wasn't on the panel but I had some discussions with a panel member.
I think the first thing is to use the task system and strip out the modifiers.
I know Marc wants simultaneous combat so we'll go with that but we'll resolve shooting before moving so we can find out where movement ends when things die. First shooters go first but are 1d easier to hit.
So your basic ranged attack is 7d + Range + Relative Speed* - Size.
*add speeds unless on same heading.
That means a stationary size 5 target at range 1 is a 2d task. A running man at range 4 is an 8d task. Guess what? Battlefield accuracy is pretty poor in the real world. Aiming reduces difficulty by 1d. Stationary shooters reduce the difficulty by 1d for you and anyone who shoots at you. Yes this means you can't miss if you're at close range, standing still, and aiming at a stationary target. Aiming is represented taking a single shot against a single target and reduces difficulty by another 1d if a sight with sufficient range is used. We'll just assume it's a laser sight at Close and Short ranges. Automatic or rapid semiautomatic fire reduce difficulty by 1d. Very rapid fire reduces difficulty by 2d Weapons capable of full auto can chose to fire very rapidly much like a semiautomatic can be fired rapidly. Attacks on multiple targets increase the difficulty by 1d each. If you fire a semi automatic rapidly or an automatic weapon very rapidly, you run out of ammunition until you can get resupplied. Vehicle mounted weapons can fire at an increased rate twice before exhausting their munitions. Single shot and disposable weapons are used up when fired.
Melee Attacks are resolved by both parties applying flux to C1 or C2 + Skill + Knowledge with the higher roll hitting and ties meaning both attacks hit. Multiple attacks on a single combatant roll individually against the victim, who gets to choose who they hit as long as their combat total is higher. I know this isn't exactly a task but I think it's about the best way to do it. You could make it a 2d task with a -7 modifier but I'm trying to lose all the modifiers. Why are we using an nd6 task system with modifiers?
Hit locations are a 2d roll. Cover supplies armor by material type. If you want to ignore hit locations assume targets in partial cover are 1d harder to hit.
Damage is rolled all at once using differently colored dice, with the highest rolls being applied first. All damage effected by a defense is applied to it at once. Weapons that get a damage bonus in Gun Maker lose it and instead automatic fire gives increased damage of 1d or 2d for VRF in the damage phase.
Pen damage is applied first against armor and the dice rolls are doubled until the Penetrate dice run out or the armor is penetrated. I think that's the only sane way to do it.
Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with a flat 7+ on 2d to hit.
All wounds bleed 1 point per turn per DIE that got through the armor. If less than a full die got through the armor the damage is only concussion and the target doesn't suffer bleeding.
Burn damage causes 1d per turn continuing damage if the target is flammable.
If you want really fast damage resolution multiply the number of dice by four and just compare that to armor. I recognize that this is above average but it's simple and will often mean there is no hope of penetrating armor.
I think the first thing is to use the task system and strip out the modifiers.
I know Marc wants simultaneous combat so we'll go with that but we'll resolve shooting before moving so we can find out where movement ends when things die. First shooters go first but are 1d easier to hit.
So your basic ranged attack is 7d + Range + Relative Speed* - Size.
*add speeds unless on same heading.
That means a stationary size 5 target at range 1 is a 2d task. A running man at range 4 is an 8d task. Guess what? Battlefield accuracy is pretty poor in the real world. Aiming reduces difficulty by 1d. Stationary shooters reduce the difficulty by 1d for you and anyone who shoots at you. Yes this means you can't miss if you're at close range, standing still, and aiming at a stationary target. Aiming is represented taking a single shot against a single target and reduces difficulty by another 1d if a sight with sufficient range is used. We'll just assume it's a laser sight at Close and Short ranges. Automatic or rapid semiautomatic fire reduce difficulty by 1d. Very rapid fire reduces difficulty by 2d Weapons capable of full auto can chose to fire very rapidly much like a semiautomatic can be fired rapidly. Attacks on multiple targets increase the difficulty by 1d each. If you fire a semi automatic rapidly or an automatic weapon very rapidly, you run out of ammunition until you can get resupplied. Vehicle mounted weapons can fire at an increased rate twice before exhausting their munitions. Single shot and disposable weapons are used up when fired.
Melee Attacks are resolved by both parties applying flux to C1 or C2 + Skill + Knowledge with the higher roll hitting and ties meaning both attacks hit. Multiple attacks on a single combatant roll individually against the victim, who gets to choose who they hit as long as their combat total is higher. I know this isn't exactly a task but I think it's about the best way to do it. You could make it a 2d task with a -7 modifier but I'm trying to lose all the modifiers. Why are we using an nd6 task system with modifiers?
Hit locations are a 2d roll. Cover supplies armor by material type. If you want to ignore hit locations assume targets in partial cover are 1d harder to hit.
Damage is rolled all at once using differently colored dice, with the highest rolls being applied first. All damage effected by a defense is applied to it at once. Weapons that get a damage bonus in Gun Maker lose it and instead automatic fire gives increased damage of 1d or 2d for VRF in the damage phase.
Pen damage is applied first against armor and the dice rolls are doubled until the Penetrate dice run out or the armor is penetrated. I think that's the only sane way to do it.
Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with a flat 7+ on 2d to hit.
All wounds bleed 1 point per turn per DIE that got through the armor. If less than a full die got through the armor the damage is only concussion and the target doesn't suffer bleeding.
Burn damage causes 1d per turn continuing damage if the target is flammable.
If you want really fast damage resolution multiply the number of dice by four and just compare that to armor. I recognize that this is above average but it's simple and will often mean there is no hope of penetrating armor.
Last edited:
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I'm against any type of bleeding damage (just like I'm against Cut damage doing recurring damage, round after round). The main reason is that the "hit points" a character has are few, and when the damage system was developed in CT (taking damage off stats), it wasn't designed to take too much damage. Look at the damage ratings in Book 1, and you'll see a lot of 2D and 3D damage ratings.
That's all a hit did. 2D or 3D (with 4D for shotguns, of course, and then the more powerful weapons in Book 4).
T5 damage can routinely go above 2-3D, and when that happens, characters are going to start dropping like flies.
The second reason I'm against it is that it requires bookkeeping from round to round. You've got to remember who has bleed damage and who doesn't. That's a pain for players, and it's a real pain for Refs, with all that they have to track.
That is exactly what the combat process should use to tune itself.
In other words, it's not a problem, but rather an opportunity. Once the combat system works nice and smoothly, we then figure out if damage is too deadly or not deadly enough, and only then decide on the order to apply damage.
This could take several forms. It might even involve player choice, depending on situation, whether or not attacker or defender chooses.
Agreed. I also parrot my and others' observations that IT'S WAY TOO DM HEAVY!
I'm also against bookkeeping except under extraordinary circumstances (the Burrito Principle). Bleeding from gunfire would not be extraordinary.
Last edited:
Edited quote.
This is a good start. Some things to think about inline.
Notice how losing the DMs does not lose the "funny math" in this case. The odd-looking "7" at the beginning is a clear indicator that turning DMs into Dice makes things look a little strange.
While players completely understand Die Modifiers, the number 7 magically thrown into a task is completely opaque.
The reason is because Size and Speed overwhelm Range.
(At one point a long time ago, I suggested to Marc that Size be re-calibrated to Human = 0, with smaller things having negative values).
Despite my dislike of modifiers, allow one, namely: target Size. Or better: make Size a difficulty mod as a Special Circumstance (added to your list below).
Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill; min 2D. No chance if Size < Range.
Also, replace your "Stationary Shooter" rule with Speed as a difficulty changer.
* Smaller than human (technically, size 4 or less): +1D.
* Vehicle sized: -1D. Starship sized: -2D.
* Moving makes tasks 1d harder.
* Moving targets make tasks 1d harder.
I think this shows off the primary strength of T5's task system. The referee quickly sees that doing something significant can add or remove a die from the task roll. Which is how the task system is supposed to work.
If so, I agree.
T5 damage is tricky.
What if we keep the damage bonus, and apply the lowest rolls first?
On the other hand, I've heard that T5 guns are not deadly enough. Perhaps we keep the damage bonus for that very reason.
This is a good start. Some things to think about inline.
Notice how losing the DMs does not lose the "funny math" in this case. The odd-looking "7" at the beginning is a clear indicator that turning DMs into Dice makes things look a little strange.
While players completely understand Die Modifiers, the number 7 magically thrown into a task is completely opaque.
The reason is because Size and Speed overwhelm Range.
(At one point a long time ago, I suggested to Marc that Size be re-calibrated to Human = 0, with smaller things having negative values).
Despite my dislike of modifiers, allow one, namely: target Size. Or better: make Size a difficulty mod as a Special Circumstance (added to your list below).
Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill; min 2D. No chance if Size < Range.
Also, replace your "Stationary Shooter" rule with Speed as a difficulty changer.
* Smaller than human (technically, size 4 or less): +1D.
* Vehicle sized: -1D. Starship sized: -2D.
* Moving makes tasks 1d harder.
* Moving targets make tasks 1d harder.
The nice thing about a list like this is that referees are free to ignore what they don't care about, and add to the list with things they do care about and are adamant about.
I think this shows off the primary strength of T5's task system. The referee quickly sees that doing something significant can add or remove a die from the task roll. Which is how the task system is supposed to work.
Cover as armor seems to be a good idea. In an abstract sense it would protect the entire character -- i.e. a stone wall protects half of a character in reality, but in the abstract game sense it effectively gives partial protection to the entire character. There are more complex ways to do it of course, and I think there is plenty of room for several ways to do it, from the basic to the complicated. And if cover is treated, it should be presented with an EASY way and a MORE REAL way.
The old old trick is to make two of the dice thrown in the task roll be of a different color, and use that as the hit location. The problem here is when there are only two dice rolled, of course, and hit locations tend to follow the target range.
I think you're saying that a weapon's damage is all applied at once. Pen-3 and Blast-2 and Burn-2 for example are not three hits, but rather one hit, with three effects, but they're all used together as a single attack, not three separate attacks at three locations with three attempts to overcome armor.
If so, I agree.
Ah, different colors are due to different damage types.
T5 damage is tricky.
I agree.
This is quite reasonable. BUT: reverse this under extraordinary circumstances.
I dislike losing a damage bonus. Tell me you understand why that bonus is in GunMaker to begin with.
What if we keep the damage bonus, and apply the lowest rolls first?
On the other hand, I've heard that T5 guns are not deadly enough. Perhaps we keep the damage bonus for that very reason.
I suggest Range [dice] < weapon TL.
Put it with the "special considerations" section, rather than the combat flow, and I'm fine with it.
Interesting. I don't know how profitable that rule would be.
There is room for ammunition rules. I suggest many "special consideration" rules follow on the flow, and the flow concern itself with the simplest mode of combat that works for Traveller5.
It seems that Unarmed Combat "ought" to be a kind of task, in the same sense that a "cooperative" task is a variation on the task system.
Last edited:
Rob's Edit of David's Awesome Post
Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill
* Minimum task 2D.
* No chance if Size < Range.
Unarmed Attack: 2D < Characteristic + Unarmed
Unarmed Block: 2D < Characteristic + Unarmed
* Pick one for each round.
* Minimum task 2D.
* Highest Unarmed skill attacks first.
Multiple attacks on a single combatant roll individually against the target, who gets to choose who they hit as long as their combat total is higher.
Difficulty modifiers:
* +1D if smaller than human (e.g. Size 4 or less).
* -1D if vehicle sized. -2D if starship sized.
* +1D if moving.
* +1D if target moving.
* -1D if aiming (or -2D if a sight with sufficient range is used).
* -1D if automatic or rapid semiautomatic fire.
* -2D if very rapid or full auto] fire.
* Each additional target adds 1D to each attack.
Partial cover is like armor. Treat as half of the ratings given on page 640; for example, stone as Ar10, iron as Ar25, and steel as Ar35. Walls have armor based on the TL of the material.
Damage. Roll dice and apply damage first to armor, Pen first, and high values first; Pen counts twice against armor. Once armor is overcome, the remaining rolls apply at face value, one die to a random physical characteristic.
Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with the task Range [dice] < Weapon TL.
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]Special Considerations List Goes Here
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]
Ranged Attack: Range [dice] < Characteristic + Skill
* Minimum task 2D.
* No chance if Size < Range.
Unarmed Attack: 2D < Characteristic + Unarmed
Unarmed Block: 2D < Characteristic + Unarmed
* Pick one for each round.
* Minimum task 2D.
* Highest Unarmed skill attacks first.
Multiple attacks on a single combatant roll individually against the target, who gets to choose who they hit as long as their combat total is higher.
Difficulty modifiers:
* +1D if smaller than human (e.g. Size 4 or less).
* -1D if vehicle sized. -2D if starship sized.
* +1D if moving.
* +1D if target moving.
* -1D if aiming (or -2D if a sight with sufficient range is used).
* -1D if automatic or rapid semiautomatic fire.
* -2D if very rapid or full auto] fire.
* Each additional target adds 1D to each attack.
Partial cover is like armor. Treat as half of the ratings given on page 640; for example, stone as Ar10, iron as Ar25, and steel as Ar35. Walls have armor based on the TL of the material.
Damage. Roll dice and apply damage first to armor, Pen first, and high values first; Pen counts twice against armor. Once armor is overcome, the remaining rolls apply at face value, one die to a random physical characteristic.
Blast and Frag damage attack everyone close to the target with the task Range [dice] < Weapon TL.
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]Special Considerations List Goes Here
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]
David Johansen
SOC-12
Well, thanks for the kind words. Yes Size is an issue but Marc likes the Size / Range equivalency and that's okay. But, yes the to hit difficulty gets too high. I tried to mitigate it with the stationary shooter rule. On the first draft I did exactly what you suggested but it left the difficulties high. I wanted multiple ways to improve your chance to hit. Also, in hindsight you can aim while firing on fully automatic as long as you don't attack extra targets. That's what we invented tracer rounds for in the first place.
The issue with bonus damage in gun maker and combat is that you're double dipping and having two rules where you can have one. Yes, getting hosed with automatic fire does more damage but it's possible to fire most automatic weapons in single shot mode so it makes sense to handle it in combat instead.
Personally I'd bump the basic damages up by a die for every weapon type. If you want a round of beating on someone unarmed to do a die of damage a very basic pistol needs to do at least two dice.
On a related note, I wanted to allow for rapidly emptying your magazine and firing an automatic weapon constantly to hose down an area. In essence expending all your ammo for a bonus to hit. Making it a single use is a bit harsh but as you get unlimited ammo if you don't do it I think it balances.
Melee is a bit tricky because the range of Attribute + Skill simply exceeds the 2-12 range too fast. Most melee combatants will be 7 + 3 = 10 with exceptional combatants being easily in the 10 +6 = 16 range or even F + 10 =25 (who needs nukes at this point?)
I think it might be best to make it a 3d task. I'll have to check a couple details on opposed tasks to straighten it out in my head. They're won on margin of success right?
Okay, after a couple fact checks, yes the automatic weapons are getting a bonus in proportion to the other descriptor options. Even so, I'd probably move 1d off of all of them and onto the basic weapon. Alternately you could do both and just have slightly more effective weapons. It's a question of whether the bonus damage represents some degree of technological advancement above and beyond the automatic fire. It's not really clear either way.
Opposed tests are lowest roll wins. So it's important to have a difficulty that reflects T5's higher skill range. I'm thinking 3d for most situations and 2d for surprise attacks and outnumbered foes.
The issue with bonus damage in gun maker and combat is that you're double dipping and having two rules where you can have one. Yes, getting hosed with automatic fire does more damage but it's possible to fire most automatic weapons in single shot mode so it makes sense to handle it in combat instead.
Personally I'd bump the basic damages up by a die for every weapon type. If you want a round of beating on someone unarmed to do a die of damage a very basic pistol needs to do at least two dice.
On a related note, I wanted to allow for rapidly emptying your magazine and firing an automatic weapon constantly to hose down an area. In essence expending all your ammo for a bonus to hit. Making it a single use is a bit harsh but as you get unlimited ammo if you don't do it I think it balances.
Melee is a bit tricky because the range of Attribute + Skill simply exceeds the 2-12 range too fast. Most melee combatants will be 7 + 3 = 10 with exceptional combatants being easily in the 10 +6 = 16 range or even F + 10 =25 (who needs nukes at this point?)
I think it might be best to make it a 3d task. I'll have to check a couple details on opposed tasks to straighten it out in my head. They're won on margin of success right?
Okay, after a couple fact checks, yes the automatic weapons are getting a bonus in proportion to the other descriptor options. Even so, I'd probably move 1d off of all of them and onto the basic weapon. Alternately you could do both and just have slightly more effective weapons. It's a question of whether the bonus damage represents some degree of technological advancement above and beyond the automatic fire. It's not really clear either way.
Opposed tests are lowest roll wins. So it's important to have a difficulty that reflects T5's higher skill range. I'm thinking 3d for most situations and 2d for surprise attacks and outnumbered foes.
Last edited:
