Ort Cloud/Keiper Belt Refueling

[Fritz_Brown]

Of course, you can combine the advantages of mines with the advantages of patrols by having robotic ships lazily patrol the area with orders to shoot anything that doesn't squawk the proper codes. It comes in and refuels every so often, but otherwise "randomly" runs through the cloud/belt. And, the "randomness" gives the bad guys something to think about.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

A question about detection opinions. What do you guys think about using jump flash to illuminate the cometary bodies for detection?

 

[far-trader]

I think even if you allow that jump flash is very bright and broad spectrum (which I don't for the record but MTU is not YTU of course, or even OTU in bits) there'd still be precious little of that reflected back to you for passive sensors due to the small size of the bodies in question, the vast distances involved, and the questionably reflective quality of said bodies. And of course you narrow antennae diameter too. So, um, short answer (too late ), no.

Now, a large passive reflection of one's jump flash shortly after (say less than a second) dropping out of jump space, well, that's baaad news. "IT"'s close and probably dense and probably not going to be friendly. Can you say "adventure"? I knew you could

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by flykiller:
that was me.

I use it in every campaign I run.

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by Xavier Onassis:
Option 3 is tricky--the intruder needs to refuel fast, and the locals will see the jump flash when the intruder leaves, so repeated use of the same refueling source by the intruder means the locals will eventually find it.

Cat and mouse, ad infinitum....

XO

Perfect diversionary tactic. Hire a bunch of rock jockeys with Type J's to jump into the Oorts. Make a lot of noise, set up EM decoys and simulate encrypted operational chatter... Then have your attacking force jump in close from the opposite direction.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by roygbiv:
Perfect diversionary tactic. Hire a bunch of rock jockeys with Type J's to jump into the Oorts. Make a lot of noise, set up EM decoys and simulate encrypted operational chatter... Then have your attacking force jump in close from the opposite direction.

It'd be expensive to build a small fleet for that (I know, you said hire somebody...) - j-drives, fuel, powerplants, etc. But, could you build something inexpensive that would give you the j-flash, without actually jumping? Drop a bunch in with a "battle-rider", and have them pretend to jump in and out?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
But, could you build something inexpensive that would give you the j-flash, without actually jumping? Drop a bunch in with a "battle-rider", and have them pretend to jump in and out?

Fritz,

Oh that is so sneak-eeeeeeeeee! You've got a great and twisted mind!

Let's say it's very hard to mimic jump flash without making a jump. Maybe some sort of particles from jump space come through the entry/exit 'rifts' that can't be reproduced in our dimension. Whatever the reason you gotta jump to get a flash.

Enter the lowly X-boat.

A Purcell-class tender jumps in with two 'boats aboard. They're rated at jump4 and carry fuel for jump4, but they can jump shorter distances. Get it?

One parsec or under, you're still using enough fuel for jump1 so the 'boats have four 'hops' in their tanks. They start hopping around the Oort Cloud. Four weeks, four hops, and the last is back to where momma is waiting. (That point needn't even be where they began.) Rendezvous with the tender, fuel up, and start flashing again.

Bigger ships can carry more X-boats to add to the fun. You can even use the system to set upo ambushes for the system forces investigating the flashes.

Like it?

Now, what if there are jump torpedos IYTU? {insert evil laughter here}

Even if the wastage rate per jump pushes 50%, having a tender dropped off a hundred of the things on timers would drive the defenders bughouse.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[graden1]

Oh yeah, this is getting really interesting now.

Time to get busy on that robotic missile platform. Nine ton buffered planetoid hulls are so cheap....

Question: what's the endurance of a craft with an energy point usage of "zero"? (Model 1 computer, missile rack, no maneuver drive)

XO

 

[parmasson]

It could use a few shielded radioactive decay batteries to power the passive sensors and the computer on standby for decades until you needed it. Then your fusion plant could kick in and the party could start (keys click as he adds new feature to Sunday's adventure).

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Let's say it's very hard to mimic jump flash without making a jump. Maybe some sort of particles from jump space come through the entry/exit 'rifts' that can't be reproduced in our dimension. Whatever the reason you gotta jump to get a flash.

Well, I like the explanation of "How Jump Works" that was linked to elsewhere on this board at one time. The flash comes from tearing into the J-space from N-space. Was trying to think of a way to do that without actually jumping.

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Enter the lowly X-boat.
/snip/
Like it?

Now, what if there are jump torpedos IYTU? {insert evil laughter here}

Heh, heh, heh....

 

[Ran Targas]

Captor mines are my favorite! And perfect for deep space area denial.

Ever play the old Star Trek computer game where you have to penetrate an alien asteroid missile base about to fire on a defenseless low-tech world? I ported that over to Trav a long time ago; it's a great adventure.

 

[aramis]

sorry for the delay, but to continue by previous thoughts...
Here's the thing:
1) the oort cloud is WAY out there, and the Kuiper belt is just way out there... They can detect you.
2) they can detect you when you jump in. Unless you jump in behind something. Ibid for jump out
3) you can detect planets with normal merchant sensors out to 3 Pc (AM1: Aslan, in the adventure)
4) the so called belts are pretty d***d sparse; so if you're looking for fuel, you either need a really good chart, or just to turn up the gain, and do the math...
5) they don't need to monitor your jump ENTRY flash, just detect it. Considering the EM signatures should be fairly big, even if we assume 100W light flash, we still get secondary hum from a several hundred megawatt power-grid.... which will be detectable to some of the cold PEMS arrays that could be built. add MCr5 in robots to maintain the station, and a 10 year fission plant, and you have a really good ear.
6) you'll be able to optically resolve the hull shape, and possibly even lettering, at several AU. (Current optical resolution telescopes could do it if it weren't for atmosphere).

so once we get to 6, if it's a known unfriendly, you send immediate couriers out to neigboring systems...
Even if you're knowing where the items you need are, unless you got Navy charts, you probably will only be "Close" (a day or two)... long enough to send the couriers to neighboring systems.

If it is a BIG presence, those oort cloud snowballs are going to be probably too thin for more than a medium sized fleet... each. And it will take time... probably several days..... we're looking at between 0.5 and 3 light days, IIRC, so, if we add these together:
1d assemble after jump in
1d-2d find the snowball and get there
3d-7d convert snowball to fuel
1/2d coordinate for next jump and go.

In the kuiper, still at least 4d, and we subtract a day for lightspeed lag ... that means 3d-10d to get there and smash... so, if you (the local) detect them doing a search for fuel, you've got the sensor data that tells you if they're going to find it quick or slow. if it's going to be slow, then jump to the nearest one to them, and make them earn it.

In the Kuiper, you might actually have ships close enough to intercept, too... and so it becomes possible to intercept by Sublight.... if you can get to the snowball before them, you can just make it go away..... repeated laser fire to carve it, or plasma gun it...

If it's going to be quick, just warn the neighbors, and recall to defend the mainworld(s)... but still that gives them time to prepare (1-4 days, depending upon jump safety).

If you have a ship nearby when they jump, and can reverse engineer the course, send a few on the parallel course, and a few separately plotted (RegSB says ships using the same plot use the same duration), each hoping to arrive earlier than the bogeys.

Putting mines on the biggest objects isn't a bad idea, either, but if I have three 5LD passive arrays orbiting out at 2LD, I've got really good coverage for about 100MCr, including droids to keep it going... putting some command controlled mines near the arrays is also a doable deed. But remember, those mines will require maintenance... so minefields simply reduce the maintenance costs per launcher...

 

[StarfuryAce]

If the object you're refuelling from is the size of Quaoar (800 mi. diameter) or Sedna (1100 mi. diameter)--these are real life Kuiper Belt objects in our own solar system--you're probably not going to affect its orbit a whole heck of a lot. But COACC or other local authorities are definitely going to frown upon your not refueling at an established refueling facility.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by StarfuryAce:
[QB] If the object you're refuelling from is the size of Quaoar (800 mi. diameter) or Sedna (1100 mi. diameter)--these are real life Kuiper Belt objects in our own solar system--you're probably not going to affect its orbit a whole heck of a lot.

In fact, you wouldn't affect them at all. Even if you refuelled from a mountain-sized object it wouldn't affect its orbit really.

 

[Ran Targas]

Aramis,

Again, the issue is not detection of units entering or exiting the system at extreme range; the issue is doing something about it when you can't preposition forces. The volume of space is too large to economically defend or even mine.

I believe most systems would adopt a defense strategy of holding forces back from chasing bogeys at several thousand AU's; instead keeping forces near high value targets. The rest of the system would be a relative free for all unless the commander devotes forces to actively patrolling between high value areas.

By the time a SDB could get out to the outer system from an inner world base, a pirate could conspicuously jump in, find a cometary body using noisy active sensors, refuel at a leisurely pace, and jump out without any effort to mask his jump; leaving the SDB long behind. Or, a pirate could wait until the patrol almost within weapon's range, then jump to the other side of the system.

Unless a doctrine of near planetary defense (say out to 1000 diameters) is in place, it's easy to see how only a few antagonists could draw mobile defenders away from their homeworld, then jump in their heavy hitters at 100d to mop up the static planetary defenses. Deep space battles are to easy to avoid if you don't want to fight, just don't be there when the enemy arrives.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

On the issue of jumping in-system, I ran a quick calculation, and came up with 35 AU as the distance you need to be going to make jumping worth it if you have a 6G craft. That's out past Neptune.

 

[aramis]

Mal:

several scenarios being mixed, I don't think you read my post clearly.

Scenario one: You detect them, have nothing close, and they are near fuel source. Force is small.
Warn the neighbors by courier.

Scenario two: Same as before, but you have something close (within 2 days burn of them) it's worth the intercept, as you've got a dedicated patrol... that's their job.

Scenario three: Major fleet jumps in to oort or kuiper, near a target. The question becomes how fast can they load. You will have detection issues: they determine how fast you think the fleet can refuel. If you estimate that it will take 10d or more to load the fuel needed (Loading speed will be dependent upon SA and available fuel shuttles and working crew loads) it's safe to jump to them.

If, however, you have reaction forces capable of handling them before they can refuel the fleet as a whole, Either you'll disperse them, or you'll fight them.

Militarily, either is a good thing.

Scenario four: You have nothing in range, and major fleet jumps in. You scramble out your best Observation craft. You then read, relay, and do a massive jump of couriers to where they're going.

Other issues

If the imperial navy's budget correlates to the Imperium's GDP in the same way as most nations, it's several orders of magnitude bigger than canon; way more than that if we assume the "Missing from canon" hulls are small patrol auxilia.

Realistically, either the OTU has no such belts as common occurrences, or the belts are denied by some means as a military target for refueling.

With the relatively cheap and HUGE telescopes that can be mounted on cheap hulls... Take a decent NIA, and carve it into 50m pancakes, dish it out, and put a buffered planetoid hab on the back. the ops costs will be low single digit Cr per person for Pop's 6+... and with 50m+ IR/VL/UV exoatmospheric, especially helioorbital deep system dishes, you should be able to map out the clouds at least a parsec away, But I don't know the math well enough to prove that. (The 30m does some absolutely astonishing things.... even through the haze)

Oh, and as for melting the bodies: time for some big nukes. I'm saying that based upon the impact last week... Drill with your lasers, and vaporize from the inside....

And perhaps, if they do exist, they have already been mined out. The marches have been exploited by spacefarers for centuries.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Aramis:
[QB] Mal:

several scenarios being mixed, I don't think you read my post clearly.

Err... what post of mine (presumably) are you referring to here?

 

[flykiller]

another consideration is how dirty the system is. traversing 17,850 LS at 6G results in a top speed of 11,000 miles per second - this makes dust and gas a serious problem. jumping may be the only way to traverse even moderate distances in-system.

 

[aramis]

If you're not running the OTU, Oort and Kuiper belts matter a lot.

In the OTU, they're either nonextant, or militarily denied. The latter case means they are patrolled, mined, or previously depleted.

Intercept times do matter; since, for the Kuiper, at least, it's in reach. If you can get to them before they can finish refuelling, it's militarily valuable to do so. if they can jump at the mainworld before you hit them, you can jump so as to meet them.

WIn-win-win for the defense: If they scatter, they're not your problem. If you meet them while they are refuelling, they can't (as a whole force) escape. If you meet them around the planet, the forces not sent on intercept are waiting, and you've additional forces going to mop up upon their return.

If you don't have enough forces to fight outside, you've lost anyway; the population is better off with capitulation in most cases.

If you don't defend the resources INCLUDING the kuiper and oort objects, you have already given up militarily; you no longer deny use of the system as a refuelling point, and make the local world pretty much a meaningless issue.