CT Only: Penalties for crew filling multiple jobs?

[Marchand]

Is anyone aware of anywhere in CT where the topic of crewmembers filling multiple jobs is addressed? Specifically, are there penalties for this in the rules? Or just GM fiat?

I can easily imagine someone doubling as pilot/navigator. Maybe not pilot and gunner though.

I can also imagine imposing malfunctions or paperwork difficulties where a ship is short of engineers.

 

[McPerth]

CT:LBB2, page 16, after crew positions description:

One person may fill two crew positions, providing he or she has the skill to otherwise perform the work. However, because of the added burden, such position is filled with skill minus one.

As per pilot/gunner combo, it's not so unbelievable if you think on a fighter, where a single person fills both roles and weapons are assumed to be fixed.

 

[HG_B]

CT:LBB2, page 16, after crew positions description:



As per pilot/gunner combo, it's not so unbelievable if you think on a fighter, where a single person fills both roles and weapons are assumed to be fixed.

Or, the weapon is slaved to the helmet of the pilot.

 

[Supplement Four]

Or, the weapon is slaved to the helmet of the pilot.

My handwave is that the weapons can fire themselves, automatically. I mean, why not? The computer tracks the enemy and fires at the most opportune time.

But, human interaction with the weapon brings with it two important variables.

First, manufacturers do not make automatically firing ship board weapons. People don't trust computers to make firing decisions. If they did, their would be a lot of pirates claiming to be civilians with weapons that automatically fired, when the pirates were caught. Plus, there'd be some un-wanted accidents when the computer fired and should not have at a friendly vessel.

So, a human must be involved in the firing process--a human must press trigger or firing stud (especially when dealing with powerful weapons, like some missiles).

Second, human skill can improve upon the computer's fact-based targeting. Ever had Good maps plot out directions for you? Not always does the computer provide the best route. A driver may know about construction on a street, or something to that effect, and alter the base route provided by the software. The same goes for Traveller computer targeting. A gunner may tweak a firing solution based on his expertise.





What would be interesting is a scenario where the players encounter a ship where the weapons are slaved completely to the ship's computer, and a false target happens....

 

[HG_B]

My handwave is that the weapons can fire themselves, automatically. I mean, why not? The computer tracks the enemy and fires at the most opportune time.

But, human interaction with the weapon brings with it two important variables.

First, manufacturers do not make automatically firing ship board weapons. People don't trust computers to make firing decisions. If they did, their would be a lot of pirates claiming to be civilians with weapons that automatically fired, when the pirates were caught.

Simple solution for that. ONLY weapons sold to the Mil auto fire. If you aren't mil and have them you are a pirate.

Second, human skill can improve upon the computer's fact-based targeting. Ever had Good maps plot out directions for you? Not always does the computer provide the best route.
:

Even in today's navy. Long range weapons have humans as launch authority only. Once the computers have acquired the target, the human doesn't improve the aim. In trav where the computer is aiming a laser at a ship thousands of KM away. A human can't improve that aim manually. The brain to hand reaction time is turtle like in speed compared to the targeting computer. Humans firing the guns is romantic but inefficient. The maps analogy is apples to bacteria. In space the "route" is a straight line.

 

[McPerth]

In any case, if a gunner is needed, in s single seat fighter he must be the same as the pilot, and the double position rules should apply.

And if most fighter pilots come from the Flight section (as told in HG), it still amazes me that gunnery is not in the Flight MOS (as well as the fact Pilot is easier to obtain there than ship's boat. Even while Pilot can be used as ship's boat at -1, it would be more efficient to train them directly as ship boat pilots if that's their intended mission). But that's another discussion...

 

[Supplement Four]

In any case, if a gunner is needed, in s single seat fighter he must be the same as the pilot, and the double position rules should apply.

Sure. I don't think it's a requirement that the gunner sit at the gunnery station. Those controls can be operated from any panel on the ship.

If it's the pilot pulling double duty as Pilot/Gunner, then the pilot has some of his screens devoted to piloting the craft while some others are devoted to gunnery.

Switching between necessary screens has got to be part of the penalty as well as the double duty.

 

[McPerth]

Sure. I don't think it's a requirement that the gunner sit at the gunnery station. Those controls can be operated from any panel on the ship.

If it's the pilot pulling double duty as Pilot/Gunner, then the pilot has some of his screens devoted to piloting the craft while some others are devoted to gunnery.

Switching between necessary screens has got to be part of the penalty as well as the double duty.

I don't know how it Works in a modern single seat fighter (atmospheric, off course), but along the aviation history most fighters have been single seated, so I guess the penalty is not too great (less that what Traveller represents, IMHO).

 

[HG_B]

In any case, if a gunner is needed, in s single seat fighter he must be the same as the pilot, and the double position rules should apply.

And if most fighter pilots come from the Flight section (as told in HG), it still amazes me that gunnery is not in the Flight MOS (as well as the fact Pilot is easier to obtain there than ship's boat. Even while Pilot can be used as ship's boat at -1, it would be more efficient to train them directly as ship boat pilots if that's their intended mission). But that's another discussion...

LONG ago in my game I designated the starship position as Helm. Small craft have Pilots. Two entirely different career paths. Controls are similar but how you handle the craft and their function is different. And, military trained pilot learn gunnery as part of their syllabus.

 

[Marchand]

Excellent, thanks for the clarification and further discussion.

Allowing pilot/gunner combo without penalty would be a nice reason to have fixed-facing weapon mounts as the Solomani apparently go for. You're aiming by orienting the whole ship.

 

[Supplement Four]

Note that with fighters, the pilot does not need to have the gunnery skill in order to fire the weapons. No skill is used, and there is a -1 DM on the attack throw (so, basically, a 9+ is needed to hit).

That's from page 61 of TTB.

So, anybody with Pilot-1 or Ship's Boat-2, but no Gunnery skill, can fly fighters and fire weapons (at the -1 DM).

Maybe not ironically, this is the same as making Gunnery a default skill-0 for fighter pilots but only applying the multiple skill penalty to the Gunnery skill (for the -1 DM). Thus, a fighter pilot with Pilot-1 would make piloting checks at the full skill level; is allows to also fire the craft's weapons, but at a -1 DM.

Logically, this means that fighter pilots learn to fire weapons as part of their piloting skill. It also means that, if a fighter pilot has Pilot-1 and Gunnery-3, then he will make piloting checks a his full skill level but fire the craft's weapons with a +2 DM (Skill minus one).

Also note that these rules apply to spacecraft, not atmospheric jet fighters and such, which would use a Vehicle skill.

 

[mike wightman]

If it is under 100t the skill needed is ship's boat since pilot skill is reduced by 1 when flying small craft...

 

[McPerth]

That's from page 61 of TTB.

TTB page 61 under Small Craft (I guess the relevant part):

If the craft is armed, but carries no gunner, the pilot may fire the weapon with a DM of -1 on the weapon.

While it can be read as you do (so assuming the pilot/ship boat skill is used), see that the skill needed to fire it is not mentioned, so it could well be gunnery skill (with the -1 DM), just meaning that the wepon can be fired from the pilot's position, not using pilot/ship's boat skill. This way it would be more consistent with the rest of the rules.

(Also told in other threads) See also that if we asume the pilot doubles as gunner on a fighter, aside from the -1 skill reduction his salary is reduced, as it becomes 75% of both salaries (also LBB2 page 16 or TTB page 61). So, if as a Pilot the salary was Cr 6000 a month, when doubling as gunner (salary Cr 1000 a month), it becomes Cr 5250 (75% of 7000) a month, aside from losing the bonus for higher skills (as he must be at least skill level 2 in both skills to be able to perform as skill level 1 when doubling) .

 

[McPerth]

When I began playing Traveller (back in early 1980s), the house rules we used were (IIRC):

For fighters:

• Fighter pilot used Pilot skill not ship's boat skill (so giving some logics to the Flight branch MOS)
• Fighter pilot used his Pilot skill as gunner (akin what Marchand said). The -1 told above applied.
• Fighter Pilot used his Pilot skill as DM when fired upon (as if the craft had built in maneuvre/evade 4/5 software)

For doubling positions:

• Salary for doubling crewmembers is the highest postion salary plus 50% of the lowest position one (so a pilot/gunner would be paid 6500 (6000 + 50% of 1000) a month
• The bonus are calculated for the original skill, not the reduced one

 

[Ulsyus]

It loses a bit in translation into CT, but T5 allows for quality improvements for TL's. A type 0 computer is pretty basic, but a type 0 built at a TL12 facility provides a positive quality bonus, which could then be used as a mod for some tasks. So a fighter could be operated by a pilot who cops a penalty to that and the Gunnery skill for doing two jobs, but that is offset by his advanced computer.

Neat?

 

[Supplement Four]

While it can be read as you do (so assuming the pilot/ship boat skill is used), see that the skill needed to fire it is not mentioned, so it could well be gunnery skill (with the -1 DM), just meaning that the wepon can be fired from the pilot's position, not using pilot/ship's boat skill. This way it would be more consistent with the rest of the rules.

I don't think I was clear above. I was not suggesting* that the pilot/ship's boat skill be substituted for Gunnery. What I said and meant was that the Gunnery skill was not needed in order to fire weapons.

If you note, the Gunnery skill does not have a penalty for not having the skill. So, really, you can consider every character to have Gunnery-0.

Looking at it that way, both what I said above, and what you say here, are the same thing--the end result being that fighter pilots can fire their craft's weapons using 2D6 -1, looking for 8+ to hit.




*What I was suggesting was that the fighter pilot's piloting skill (Ship's Boat) is not lowered due to the multiple duty rule--only the Gunnery skill. That's the way it reads.

As far as the Pilot salary stuff, I don't think that applies to fighter pilots because, as Mike pointed out, we're really talking about fighter craft pilots being Ship's Boat pilots. I think the 6,000Cr salary for a pilot refers to starship pilots.

If it is under 100t the skill needed is ship's boat since pilot skill is reduced by 1 when flying small craft...

Yes, you are correct. I knew that and wrote it incorrectly above. Thanks, Sigg.

 

[McPerth]

Other ship positions combo can be less problematic, as some positions (like navigator or gunner) are not used for all the trip:

• Navigator/steward: you can go without steward for the small time portion the Navigator is truly needed
• Steward/gunner (one of the most usual, I guess): in the emergency whan you need the gunner, passengers can be left undercared (with less stewards than usual)
• Steward/medic (another common doubling, again I guess): the medic work in such a ship, aside from being (hopley) scarce, partially overlaps with steward's. Also would give the medic more knowledge about the passengers that can help in his/her duty as medic
• Pilot/navigator is another combo I guess quite common, mostly in small ships (as a free/far/fat trader).
• many positions (Steward, Naviator, etc) that don't need 24/7 maning/small craft pilot is naother situation I guess quite common

In some of those cases, (e.g. medic/steward, for the reasons I explained) I don't even believe for the combo to deserve the -1 skill for doubling

 

[HG_B]

Other ship positions combo can be less problematic, as some positions (like navigator or gunner) are not used for all the trip:

• Navigator/steward: you can go without steward for the small time portion the Navigator is truly needed
• Steward/gunner (one of the most usual, I guess): in the emergency whan you need the gunner, passengers can be left undercared (with less stewards than usual)
• Steward/medic (another common doubling, again I guess): the medic work in such a ship, aside from being (hopley) scarce, partially overlaps with steward's. Also would give the medic more knowledge about the passengers that can help in his/her duty as medic
• Pilot/navigator is another combo I guess quite common, mostly in small ships (as a free/far/fat trader).
• many positions (Steward, Naviator, etc) that don't need 24/7 maning/small craft pilot is naother situation I guess quite common

In some of those cases, (e.g. medic/steward, for the reasons I explained) I don't even believe for the combo to deserve the -1 skill for doubling

Agreed. Gunners & medics on small commercial ships are like damage control personnel. Not a position you man with a dedicated person.

 

[McPerth]

Agreed. Gunners & medics on small commercial ships are like damage control personnel. Not a position you man with a dedicated person.

For the medic I also expect him/her to do a minimal check on passengers and any vaccines needed for the destination planet, to avoid spreading or catching infectious diseases (aside from caring for the low passengers, off course). Even so, not a full time duty (just a few hours per trip at most).

 

[HG_B]

For the medic I also expect him/her to do a minimal check on passengers and any vaccines needed for the destination planet, to avoid spreading or catching infectious diseases. Even so, not a full time duty (just a few hours per trip at most).

On a Free Trader set up I always envisioned a Purser position that encompassed being responsible for all paid carriage. Freight & biologicals in this case. So, part of a person getting training for that position would be learning accounting, medic, steward, supply & cargo handling.