CT Only: Personal Combat Damage Values '77 vs. '81

[mike wightman]

The body pistol is 3d in Snapshot and damage 3 in MT.

I think the 2d is the error.

Looking at AHL the BP has the same penetration as the revolver and the autopistol, while in Striker it is pen 0 while the pistols are 1.

Don't you just love the consistency of this game of ours

 

[creativehum]

The body pistol is 3d in Snapshot and damage 3 in MT.

I think the 2d is the error.

Looking at AHL the BP has the same penetration as the revolver and the autopistol, while in Striker it is pen 0 while the pistols are 1.

Don't you just love the consistency of this game of ours

Leaving aside the above for a moment... (though indeed a good point!)...

The thing I want to address I realize I probably don't have the wherewithal or the time to dig into. But it is an important point (I think!)

The results of the Damage Dice will be wonky. I like the wonkiness -- it means the effects of damage will be unpredictable and thus combat is especially dangerous.

If one applies Damage in units of Damage Dice (which the rules either state or hint at, depending on how you read them and which text you read) then the there is a good chance you won't be applying all the damage you roll because some damage will be lost when applying against a stat.

For example:

UPP: 777777 takes a hit of 2D. The dice rolled are 6 and 6. A random roll is made for First Blood. The two dice are applied to Strength.

If both dice are applied as whole units (again, as I read the rules) then the total of 12 points reduces Strength to 0 and the remaining 5 points of damage are lost.

If, however, the same character takes 2D of damage and the dice rolled are 4 and 2, then Strength is reduced to 1 and all six points roll are effective.

If a character is 444777 (which might be his base characteristics or his lowered characteristics because of damage from a previous fight) the 4 point die will drop his Strength to 0 from the random First Blood roll and the Player can assign the remaining 2 Die damage to either Dexterity or Endurance, dropping it to 2.

Notice that the smaller the damage value on a given Damage Die the more likely that all the damage will apply, where as rolls of 4, 5 and 6 are more likely to not apply fully against a character. The larger Damage rolls, then, are often smaller in damage than the actual roll.

Then there is the issue of surviving a First Blood hit. If this happens the character now already has a lowered value in one characteristic:

UPP: 777777 takes a hit of 2D. The dice rolled are 2 and 3. A random roll is made for First Blood. The two dice are applied to Strength.

The character is now 277777.

If the character takes a second hit the Player gets to distribute the Damage Dice as he wishes.

Let's say it is a 2 and a 5. The player is now faced with a Big Question.

He can apply them to his Dex and End and drop his UPP to this:
252777. But if he gets hit again with 2D odds are he won't just fall Unconscious but be Seriously Wounded.

If he wanted to he could roll apply the damage of the 2 and the 5 to his Dex or End to drop unconscious. This makes him useless in the fight, but creates a much shorter recover time until the next fight.

Now, if this same character with this same choice knows there is an additional enemy out there with a 3D attack he really has to consider what to do. Because if he decides to apply the dice from the 2D attack so he stays standing at 252777 the 3D attack could hit and he is going to die. Whereas with a 2D attack he can at least risk continuing knowing he might become seriously wounded, but not risk death. (He'll drop to Seriously Wounded on most rolls, however.)

And note that a 252777 character going into battle could take a 13 point hit from 3D and still live. (Damage Dice: 6, 6, 1. Roll randomly: First Blood on Strength. Apply the 6 to drop Str to 0. The next two dice are applied randomly, and the results are 1 against Dex and 6 against End, dropping the character to 040777. Seriously Wounded but not dead. Notice that the damage roll in this example was for 13 points, but the character only took 5 points of damage.)

As far as I can tell, while the total points do matter, the real key is the number of Dice rolled. That determines the risk the character is facing as the Player both distributes Damage Dice and decides how far to push his luck for the next possible hit.

In this the Damage system, like so much in Classic Traveller, is it's own mini-game.

There are so many permutations to consider (the number of dice, the total rolls, the starting value of the UPP, the damage taken on First Blood, the damage points lost because of larger Dice Damage values) that I'm not sure how I'd model all this. But clearly there's a lot going on.

Again, it's wonky. But I like the wonkiness. It offers a sense of control and lack of control at the same time. And the Players must make some tough choices during combat about whether to risk continuing the fight or drop themselves out to avoid the risk of death.

In my view: Good stuff!

Side note, given all of the above: Why foils? Because foils are used for dueling. Because they only deal one Damage Die the two combatants can fight until the first hit... with no chance of killing the opponent.

 

[ffilz]

Interesting discussion, that actually makes me more inclined to try and use the 1977 damage...

 

[welsh]

Foils are for practice. Rapiers are for dueling.

 

[creativehum]

Foils are for practice. Rapiers are for dueling.

Good point. (!)

When I was typing my post I kept referring to a rapier. But, weirdly, rapier is not one of the weapons listed in Book 1. For the purpose of this post I rolled Foil and Rapier together, since there is not other long, pointed, thrusting sword on the list.

But I cop to being completely wrong in doing this.

 

[ffilz]

Good point. (!)

When I was typing my post I kept referring to a rapier. But, weirdly, rapier is not one of the weapons listed in Book 1. For the purpose of this post I rolled Foil and Rapier together, since there is not other long, pointed, thrusting sword on the list.

But I cop to being completely wrong in doing this.

Not wrong. The Book 1 description of foil includes rapier.

 

[creativehum]

Not wrong. The Book 1 description of foil includes rapier.

YAY!!!

 

[aramis]

It's worth noting the historical rapiers are MUCH longer than the foil listed. 1.3-2m long, not the 0.8m long listed in the entry in TTB.

And dueling foils were a thing in france for a few decades - the tip was sharp... And were in the 0.8 to 1.2m long range...

So, while the thing is called a Foil, and is the right size for a dueling foil, the bladed rather than square or wide diamond ( of a foil ) should be called a town-sword or cut-n-thrust sword, not a rapier.

 

[rhialto]

If one applies Damage in units of Damage Dice (which the rules either state or hint at, depending on how you read them and which text you read) then the there is a good chance you won't be applying all the damage you roll because some damage will be lost when applying against a stat.

For example:

UPP: 777777 takes a hit of 2D. The dice rolled are 6 and 6. A random roll is made for First Blood. The two dice are applied to Strength.

If both dice are applied as whole units (again, as I read the rules) then the total of 12 points reduces Strength to 0 and the remaining 5 points of damage are lost.

I dimly recall this tension, but differently. I interpret the following statement in the 1977 B1 differently:

"Once a characteristic has been reduced to zero, further points may not be applied to it; the must be applied to other (non-zero) characteristics." (p.30)

That means no points are ever lost, correct? In your example above the 12 points would reduce Str to 0, and the remaining 5 points would have to be applied (in their entirety) to Dex or End. What am I missing?

 

[aramis]

That means no points are ever lost, correct?

Yep, that's the implication... whereas in Bk1-81, excess from a die is lost.

 

[creativehum]

I dimly recall this tension, but differently. I interpret the following statement in the 1977 B1 differently:

"Once a characteristic has been reduced to zero, further points may not be applied to it; the must be applied to other (non-zero) characteristics." (p.30)

That means no points are ever lost, correct? In your example above the 12 points would reduce Str to 0, and the remaining 5 points would have to be applied (in their entirety) to Dex or End. What am I missing?

Yep, that's the implication... whereas in Bk1-81, excess from a die is lost.

Actually the 1981 has the same statement:

Each die rolled (for example, each of the two dice rolled in a result of 2D) is taken as a single wound or group of hits, and must be applied to a single characteristic.

Once a characteristic has been reduced to zero, further points may not be applied to it; they must be applied to other (non-zero) characteristics.

Now, as I wrote in that long post above the language is (I think) ambivalent and everyone is going to interpret these passages as they wish.

As for my interoperation:

My problem with reading the second sentence in the quote above as having the points spill over from characteristic to characteristic is that it renders the first sentence quoted above moot. If one is applying each die to a single characteristic... well, is one applying the die to a single characteristic or not. Because if one is, then one is. If one isn't, then one isn't.

Basically, I am keeping the intent of the first sentence and "re-writing" the second to read...

Once a characteristic has been reduced to zero, further dice may not be applied to it; they must be applied to other (non-zero) characteristics.

Which not only keeps the original spirit and intent of the first sentence intact, but really isn't a stretch at all if you simply look at the two sentences a certain way. If you don't look at this way why not just say you subtract damage points from characteristics until they reach zero and then move onto the next one. What the heck is meant by the first sentence about applying the dice as a single group of damage? Why bring that up at all?

Finally, there is an elegance to the Die Damage applied as singular units of damage that a) I haven't seen anywhere, and b) is kind of awesome.

Again, I completely understand why some people will read the rule as rhialto reads it. But I find that reading too weird given the notion of the Damage Die being applied as a block presented just a few sentences earlier. And it renders the damage system utterly bland... and since I don't think any other part of Classic Traveller rules are bland, I'm all for erring on the side of the exotic and strange in my interpretation of the rule.

 

[whulorigan]

It's worth noting the historical rapiers are MUCH longer than the foil listed. 1.3-2m long, not the 0.8m long listed in the entry in TTB.

And dueling foils were a thing in france for a few decades - the tip was sharp... And were in the 0.8 to 1.2m long range...

So, while the thing is called a Foil, and is the right size for a dueling foil, the bladed rather than square or wide diamond ( of a foil ) should be called a town-sword or cut-n-thrust sword, not a rapier.

A "Smallsword" or a "Tuck" would fill this role.

 

[ffilz]

Actually the 1981 has the same statement:



Now, as I wrote in that long post above the language is (I think) ambivalent and everyone is going to interpret these passages as they wish.

As for my interoperation:

My problem with reading the second sentence in the quote above as having the points spill over from characteristic to characteristic is that it renders the first sentence quoted above moot. If one is applying each die to a single characteristic... well, is one applying the die to a single characteristic or not. Because if one is, then one is. If one isn't, then one isn't.

Basically, I am keeping the intent of the first sentence and "re-writing" the second to read...


Which not only keeps the original spirit and intent of the first sentence intact, but really isn't a stretch at all if you simply look at the two sentences a certain way. If you don't look at this way why not just say you subtract damage points from characteristics until they reach zero and then move onto the next one. What the heck is meant by the first sentence about applying the dice as a single group of damage? Why bring that up at all?

Finally, there is an elegance to the Die Damage applied as singular units of damage that a) I haven't seen anywhere, and b) is kind of awesome.

Again, I completely understand why some people will read the rule as rhialto reads it. But I find that reading too weird given the notion of the Damage Die being applied as a block presented just a few sentences earlier. And it renders the damage system utterly bland... and since I don't think any other part of Classic Traveller rules are bland, I'm all for erring on the side of the exotic and strange in my interpretation of the rule.

I would support this interpretation. Each die is already defined as a single wound or group of hits, so reading that a single wound must be applied to a single stat, you definitely get to toss that big die against the small stat and "waste" damage in my book.

 

[aramis]

CT-83 (TTB):

Each die rolled for wounds is treated as a group of hits that should not be divided; for example, a ID result of 5 should be treated as 5 hits to be
applied as one group to one of the physical characteristics. (p. 47)​

and

Wound points are applied to the target's (defending character's) strength, dexterity, and endurance on a temporary basis. Each die rolled (for example, each of the two dice rolled in a result of 2D) is taken as a single wound or group of hits, and must be applied to a single characteristic. The wounded player may decide which physical characteristic receives specific wound points in order to avoid or delay unconsciousness for as long as possible.

The first wound received by any character, however, can be sufficient to stun or daze him or her, and is handled differently. This first wound is applied to one of the three physical characteristics (strength, dexterity, or endurance) determined randomly. If that characteristic is reduced to zero, then any remaining hits are then distributed to the other physical characteristics on a random basis. As a result, first blood may immediate1 y incapacitate or even kill. (p. 35)​

Note that the p. 36 example only covers 1st hits, and in the case of 1st hits, the remainder on the die which fills the stat do transfer.

At this point, it's important to note that TTB and ST are different editions of CT from the 3LBB's of 1981 and of 1987...

It's also important to note that the Traveller RPG's didn't have regular errata releases — only newer editions — and the newer editions did get errata "fixes" in them...

Oh, and on the issue of Bodypistols - the errata says 2D, not 3D. (CT Errata Compendium, v0.7, 06/01/2012), and corrects it for EACH rulebook where the 3D appears..

 

[kilemall]

I absolutely do First Blood, and I don't see why anyo0ne would want to go double zero if they could stay 1+ across the board or just one stat 0.

Recovery times are far better if you spread the pain around.

 

[creativehum]

CT-83 (TTB):

Each die rolled for wounds is treated as a group of hits that should not be divided; for example, a ID result of 5 should be treated as 5 hits to be
applied as one group to one of the physical characteristics. (p. 47)​

and

Wound points are applied to the target's (defending character's) strength, dexterity, and endurance on a temporary basis. Each die rolled (for example, each of the two dice rolled in a result of 2D) is taken as a single wound or group of hits, and must be applied to a single characteristic. The wounded player may decide which physical characteristic receives specific wound points in order to avoid or delay unconsciousness for as long as possible.

The first wound received by any character, however, can be sufficient to stun or daze him or her, and is handled differently. This first wound is applied to one of the three physical characteristics (strength, dexterity, or endurance) determined randomly. If that characteristic is reduced to zero, then any remaining hits are then distributed to the other physical characteristics on a random basis. As a result, first blood may immediate1 y incapacitate or even kill. (p. 35)​

Note that the p. 36 example only covers 1st hits, and in the case of 1st hits, the remainder on the die which fills the stat do transfer.

Aramis, thanks so much!

It's weird -- the sentences on this topic are almost identical from edition to edition. But TTB finally puts them a) in the right order, and b) with the paragraph breaks finally structured correctly so the ideas and concepts are grouped together to make the idea of First Blood finally clear.

 

[aramis]

Aramis, thanks so much!

It's weird -- the sentences on this topic are almost identical from edition to edition. But TTB finally puts them a) in the right order, and b) with the paragraph breaks finally structured correctly so the ideas and concepts are grouped together to make the idea of First Blood finally clear.

Key word: Almost.

They aren't identical, and CT-77 is clear that dice leftovers spill, CT-81 is vague, and CT-83 & CT-84 are fairly clear they don't.

One interesting houserule to add is "leftover on a die reduces maximum recoverable, which itself heals 1 point per month..."

 

[ffilz]

CT-83 (TTB):

Each die rolled for wounds is treated as a group of hits that should not be divided; for example, a ID result of 5 should be treated as 5 hits to be
applied as one group to one of the physical characteristics. (p. 47)​

and

Wound points are applied to the target's (defending character's) strength, dexterity, and endurance on a temporary basis. Each die rolled (for example, each of the two dice rolled in a result of 2D) is taken as a single wound or group of hits, and must be applied to a single characteristic. The wounded player may decide which physical characteristic receives specific wound points in order to avoid or delay unconsciousness for as long as possible.

The first wound received by any character, however, can be sufficient to stun or daze him or her, and is handled differently. This first wound is applied to one of the three physical characteristics (strength, dexterity, or endurance) determined randomly. If that characteristic is reduced to zero, then any remaining hits are then distributed to the other physical characteristics on a random basis. As a result, first blood may immediate1 y incapacitate or even kill. (p. 35)​

Note that the p. 36 example only covers 1st hits, and in the case of 1st hits, the remainder on the die which fills the stat do transfer.

At this point, it's important to note that TTB and ST are different editions of CT from the 3LBB's of 1981 and of 1987...

It's also important to note that the Traveller RPG's didn't have regular errata releases — only newer editions — and the newer editions did get errata "fixes" in them...

Oh, and on the issue of Bodypistols - the errata says 2D, not 3D. (CT Errata Compendium, v0.7, 06/01/2012), and corrects it for EACH rulebook where the 3D appears..

Thanks for pointing this out, I have added the relevant text to my section by section document.

Oh, and one more bit to be taken from that... At least for that first wound (now called a Critical Hit), the dice are rolled in order and taken in that order, since the example shows rolls of 6, 3, 4 applied in that order (order makes a difference, if we sorted the dice, the roll over would either be a single 6, or two 3s, instead, the roll over is 2 (excess from the 3) and a 4. So if we want to play by the book, we need to roll the damage dice in order for first hits...

 

[ffilz]

And to toss a curve ball, here's the text from Snapshot on wounding, bold text my highlight:

Wound points are applied to the target's strength, dexterity, and endurance on a temporary basis. Each die rolled (for example, each of the two dice rolled in a wound of 2D) is taken as a single wound or group of hits, and must be applied to a single characteristic.

The first wound received by a character, however, can be sufficient to stun or daze him or her, and is handled differently. This first wound received is applied entirely to one of the three physical characteristics (strength, dexterity, or endurance), determined randomly. As a result, first blood may immediately incapacitate or even kill.

When any one characteristic is reduced to zero by wounds, the character is rendered unconscious. When two characteristics have been reduced to zero, the character is seriously wounded, and will require medical care to survive. When all three characteristics have been reduced to zero, the character is dead. In any case where the application of one die's wound points puts a characteristic at zero or below, the excess points on that die are lost. Further wounding must be applied to other non-zero characteristics.

 

[mike wightman]

Doesn't Snapshot also say the body pistol does 3d damage